Any place looking for instructors?

[aviran]

Hello everyone,
I'm just wondering if there are any place left in Canada that are still hiring class 4 instructors?

It's as if it is no longer possible to secure a position.
Even going physically to schools, all of them giving the same answer as they do on the phone - "email your resume for FUTURE considerations", so this method is pretty much dead.
I'm not even a low time instructor (600 hours, 52 Multi time), with group 1 IFR, and it's still impossible to secure a position.

[+TSRA]

You're better served searching on AvCanada or PilotCareerCentre for actual jobs. Also, word of mouth was huge back in the day for instructing jobs, so even if a school doesn't have a need, maybe they know of a school that does.

Is flight instructing your career goal or is it a stepping stone to something else?

I'm too far removed from the flight instructor world to honestly give you advice in the current employment outlook sphere if the answer is the former. Plus, I didn't get my instructing start in Canada, and had moved back home when that stage of my career was nearing its end. But I do remember it was difficult for a Class 4 instructor to find work outside of the school they completed their rating with. I seem to remember it primarily came down to a supervision issue - schools already had Class 4 instructors, and didn't have the space or desire to supervise another instructor, but they'd be happy to hire a Class 3 or higher. That may have changed in the last 15 to 20 years though, but the business model hasn't changed, so I would be surprised if it had. If you're serious about continuing down the instructor road, have you considered looking outside of Ontario (assuming you haven't of course)? There are a lot of busy flight schools out east and west who might be in a better position to hire a Class 4 Instructor.

If the answer to my original question is the later, that is that instructing is a stepping stone, then perhaps with 600 hours and a Group 1 Instrument Rating it is time to start looking at the 703 and 704 operators. There are a lot of open positions for First Officers on Navajos, King Airs, Beech 1900Ds, and the like around the country if you're willing to move. You'd need only write your IATRA, if it's not already written, and start throwing out the resumes. That too will require a search beyond the borders of Ontario, but rare is the pilot in Canada who hasn't had to move across the country at least once before ending up in their ideal career position. Jazz, Encore, and I believe Porter are all hiring sub-1000 hour pilots, and when it comes to the airlines, seniority (not PIC) is king. Finish out a 2 year bond on something like a King Air, and you'll have around 1,200 to 2,000 hours when applying to the airlines, which is much more attractive to the airline than 750 hours. Plus, with the PIC you've gained from instructing, you might find you're able to hold an ATPL right at 1,500 hours, putting you in line for an earlier upgrade should the opportunity arise. If the airlines is not your thing, then this option at least opens doors to other places in the industry.

Finally, and I preface this by saying that I don't want this to come off as being rude. It's not my intent at all. Rather, it is an attempt to get you to look at what you might be sending out with objective eyes. But I don't want to sugar coat it either, as that does you no good: 600 hours total time with likely 400 hours as an instructor is still low-time. Sure, it's not brand new with the ink still drying, but you'd have somewhere close to half or just over half the required instructing experience required to apply for your Class 3. I say this because it is important when applying for a job that you appear confident and collected without appearing blustery or conceited. It is an extremely fine line to walk, and I have interviewed a few pilots in my time who lost out on a job because their resume, cover letter, or comments during an interview was full of vain, boastful, or ego-building statements. Heck, I've done it myself too, once losing out on a job for going a tad overboard during the interview. The company was gracious enough to be quite honest with me, saying had it not been for that, I'd likely have been hired. I'm not saying that is what you are or are not doing, but your last sentence gave me enough of a moment of pause to suggest that you review your cover letter, resume, or general approach for any statement that could appear egotistical from the person who is receiving your documents.

Best of luck

[aviran]

Originally Posted by +TSRA

You're better served searching on AvCanada or PilotCareerCentre for actual jobs. Also, word of mouth was huge back in the day for instructing jobs, so even if a school doesn't have a need, maybe they know of a school that does.

Is flight instructing your career goal or is it a stepping stone to something else?

I'm too far removed from the flight instructor world to honestly give you advice in the current employment outlook sphere if the answer is the former. Plus, I didn't get my instructing start in Canada, and had moved back home when that stage of my career was nearing its end. But I do remember it was difficult for a Class 4 instructor to find work outside of the school they completed their rating with. I seem to remember it primarily came down to a supervision issue - schools already had Class 4 instructors, and didn't have the space or desire to supervise another instructor, but they'd be happy to hire a Class 3 or higher. That may have changed in the last 15 to 20 years though, but the business model hasn't changed, so I would be surprised if it had. If you're serious about continuing down the instructor road, have you considered looking outside of Ontario (assuming you haven't of course)? There are a lot of busy flight schools out east and west who might be in a better position to hire a Class 4 Instructor.

If the answer to my original question is the later, that is that instructing is a stepping stone, then perhaps with 600 hours and a Group 1 Instrument Rating it is time to start looking at the 703 and 704 operators. There are a lot of open positions for First Officers on Navajos, King Airs, Beech 1900Ds, and the like around the country if you're willing to move. You'd need only write your IATRA, if it's not already written, and start throwing out the resumes. That too will require a search beyond the borders of Ontario, but rare is the pilot in Canada who hasn't had to move across the country at least once before ending up in their ideal career position. Jazz, Encore, and I believe Porter are all hiring sub-1000 hour pilots, and when it comes to the airlines, seniority (not PIC) is king. Finish out a 2 year bond on something like a King Air, and you'll have around 1,200 to 2,000 hours when applying to the airlines, which is much more attractive to the airline than 750 hours. Plus, with the PIC you've gained from instructing, you might find you're able to hold an ATPL right at 1,500 hours, putting you in line for an earlier upgrade should the opportunity arise. If the airlines is not your thing, then this option at least opens doors to other places in the industry.

Finally, and I preface this by saying that I don't want this to come off as being rude. It's not my intent at all. Rather, it is an attempt to get you to look at what you might be sending out with objective eyes. But I don't want to sugar coat it either, as that does you no good: 600 hours total time with likely 400 hours as an instructor is still low-time. Sure, it's not brand new with the ink still drying, but you'd have somewhere close to half or just over half the required instructing experience required to apply for your Class 3. I say this because it is important when applying for a job that you appear confident and collected without appearing blustery or conceited. It is an extremely fine line to walk, and I have interviewed a few pilots in my time who lost out on a job because their resume, cover letter, or comments during an interview was full of vain, boastful, or ego-building statements. Heck, I've done it myself too, once losing out on a job for going a tad overboard during the interview. The company was gracious enough to be quite honest with me, saying had it not been for that, I'd likely have been hired. I'm not saying that is what you are or are not doing, but your last sentence gave me enough of a moment of pause to suggest that you review your cover letter, resume, or general approach for any statement that could appear egotistical from the person who is receiving your documents.

Best of luck

First off, thank you for your response.
I do want an instructional career, and to get my class 1 instructor in due time. And yes I will get the ATPL as well.
I did applied for FO positions, all around the country, not a single interview. I also already have my IATRA Written.
I also applied to every school I could find in SK, MB, AB and BC, not just Ontario.

What I wanted to point out about the hours is - if I can't get a job at 600 hours, how can an instructor with 230-280 hours can? I didn't try to bloat it on purpose, just to point out it's really sad.
Is it really that bad? Because if so, IMO, Transport should put a hold on instruction examination for Five years, and not have people spend so much money just to renew it in 12 month.

I also understand most schools want class 2 or class 1, it's a given, but it's impossible to get if no one is going your a shot. I'm willing to work full time to get the class 3, and to upgrade ASAP to class 2, but it's impossible without getting a single place.

I hope it didn't come out as angry or condescending.

[+TSRA]

It's been said that your first 1,000 hours is the hardest to achieve, primarily because of what you point out, that it's impossible to get started if no one hires you. I generally suggest to new pilots that if they want to go the instructing route, that they flight school they go to agrees to hire them after the flight test is done and stay there until they hold their Class 3. Otherwise, it can be difficult to find that first job.

Specific to you though, there are a few things that could be going on.

First, quite a lot of aviation in Canada is not what you know, but who you know. Indeed, except for my current job, all the jobs I've ever had came about because I knew someone at the new company. My first instructing job was from the company that I did the rating with, the second was from a gentleman who had done my CPL training and suddenly had need of a new instructor. I got the job simply because I was transiting through the airport and bumped into him. Had it not been for that, I wouldn't have got that job. The third job came because an Air Cadet instructor of mine started working a side gig at the same time as I moved back to Canada, so he got me a part time job. That led to enough hours where a friend of mine from high school hooked me up with a job in Yellowknife. One of my chief pilots from that job moved down to Calgary and offered me a job down here. Heck, even when I applied to the airlines, I had a good word put in by the chief pilot and director of flight ops because I had worked with them both in the past.

The reason I lay all that out is to show you just how much contacts in this industry are key and how keeping in touch with the people you come across is sometimes much more important than sending out 200 or so resumes. If you honestly feel like you've hit a wall, maybe it's time to start reaching out to people you know who have found jobs or even your previous instructors. See how they're doing, if they've heard of any gigs that might be around, even if it's not instructing to start. Once you've done that, keep in regular touch with those people. Like I said about my second job, I wouldn't have known about it save for a chance encounter with my old boss. Sometimes those chance encounters happen by accident, other times they happen because you've kept in touch with someone and you're front of mind. The process of needing an instructor and hiring an instructor can be done in almost one day, and it used to be the rule rather than the exception that you were hired because you knew someone at the school, so a lot of this is right place, right time, right person.

Second, aviation is cyclical. You may have heard about the seven year cycle of boom and bust with the business cycle, and that's where there are huge movements (or large periods of stagnation) of pilots through the ranks. But there is a smaller annual cycle when it comes to instructing (and other parts of the industry, like bush flying). A lot of instructing jobs used to come up in early to mid spring when the weather started delivering more fair weather flying days. Then as summer hits, all the jobs are taken and no one has need of instructors, so if this is when you're looking, it can seem as though there are no jobs out there. Come autumn hiring picks up a little as people move on to bigger and better things, but often that's where mostly senior pilots are replacing senior pilots. Come the winter there are few companies hiring en-masse, and it can seem like the summer again. One issue that you're likely facing right now is delivery of aircraft at the airlines. Or rather, lack thereof. Both Boeing and Airbus have fallen well behind their delivery schedule, and this impacts hiring at the likes of Air Canada and WestJet. This has a cascade through the rest of the industry where all of a sudden pilots at Jazz and Encore are not moving, which means no one is moving into those companies to fill the gaps, meaning no one is leaving their instructing or charter flying roles. Anyone just starting out or looking for an instructor job could find it hard to obtain one because of lack of movement.

The good news here is that there may be light at the end of the tunnel, specifically with Boeing. They seem to be slowly delivering more aircraft and eventually that means the likes of Air Canada and WestJet will start hiring again. That'll be the spark needed to get the industry moving again. I have it on good authority that Team Teal will be hiring upwards of 400 pilots starting at the end of this year once the Sunwing merged pilots are fully trained, so that'll get the ball moving in relatively short order. Air Canada is likewise short of pilots, although that gravy train is or will slow down as we approach the peak of their retirements.

The thing to do right now is not give up. Keep knocking on doors, go back and knock on some of those old doors, and start calling people from your past. All you need is that one opening but, as I said, that is the hardest opening of your career to get.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by +TSRA

It's been said that your first 1,000 hours is the hardest to achieve, primarily because of what you point out, that it's impossible to get started if no one hires you. I generally suggest to new pilots that if they want to go the instructing route, that they flight school they go to agrees to hire them after the flight test is done and stay there until they hold their Class 3. Otherwise, it can be difficult to find that first job.

Specific to you though, there are a few things that could be going on.

First, quite a lot of aviation in Canada is not what you know, but who you know. Indeed, except for my current job, all the jobs I've ever had came about because I knew someone at the new company. My first instructing job was from the company that I did the rating with, the second was from a gentleman who had done my CPL training and suddenly had need of a new instructor. I got the job simply because I was transiting through the airport and bumped into him. Had it not been for that, I wouldn't have got that job. The third job came because an Air Cadet instructor of mine started working a side gig at the same time as I moved back to Canada, so he got me a part time job. That led to enough hours where a friend of mine from high school hooked me up with a job in Yellowknife. One of my chief pilots from that job moved down to Calgary and offered me a job down here. Heck, even when I applied to the airlines, I had a good word put in by the chief pilot and director of flight ops because I had worked with them both in the past.

The reason I lay all that out is to show you just how much contacts in this industry are key and how keeping in touch with the people you come across is sometimes much more important than sending out 200 or so resumes. If you honestly feel like you've hit a wall, maybe it's time to start reaching out to people you know who have found jobs or even your previous instructors. See how they're doing, if they've heard of any gigs that might be around, even if it's not instructing to start. Once you've done that, keep in regular touch with those people. Like I said about my second job, I wouldn't have known about it save for a chance encounter with my old boss. Sometimes those chance encounters happen by accident, other times they happen because you've kept in touch with someone and you're front of mind. The process of needing an instructor and hiring an instructor can be done in almost one day, and it used to be the rule rather than the exception that you were hired because you knew someone at the school, so a lot of this is right place, right time, right person.

Second, aviation is cyclical. You may have heard about the seven year cycle of boom and bust with the business cycle, and that's where there are huge movements (or large periods of stagnation) of pilots through the ranks. But there is a smaller annual cycle when it comes to instructing (and other parts of the industry, like bush flying). A lot of instructing jobs used to come up in early to mid spring when the weather started delivering more fair weather flying days. Then as summer hits, all the jobs are taken and no one has need of instructors, so if this is when you're looking, it can seem as though there are no jobs out there. Come autumn hiring picks up a little as people move on to bigger and better things, but often that's where mostly senior pilots are replacing senior pilots. Come the winter there are few companies hiring en-masse, and it can seem like the summer again. One issue that you're likely facing right now is delivery of aircraft at the airlines. Or rather, lack thereof. Both Boeing and Airbus have fallen well behind their delivery schedule, and this impacts hiring at the likes of Air Canada and WestJet. This has a cascade through the rest of the industry where all of a sudden pilots at Jazz and Encore are not moving, which means no one is moving into those companies to fill the gaps, meaning no one is leaving their instructing or charter flying roles. Anyone just starting out or looking for an instructor job could find it hard to obtain one because of lack of movement.

The good news here is that there may be light at the end of the tunnel, specifically with Boeing. They seem to be slowly delivering more aircraft and eventually that means the likes of Air Canada and WestJet will start hiring again. That'll be the spark needed to get the industry moving again. I have it on good authority that Team Teal will be hiring upwards of 400 pilots starting at the end of this year once the Sunwing merged pilots are fully trained, so that'll get the ball moving in relatively short order. Air Canada is likewise short of pilots, although that gravy train is or will slow down as we approach the peak of their retirements.

The thing to do right now is not give up. Keep knocking on doors, go back and knock on some of those old doors, and start calling people from your past. All you need is that one opening but, as I said, that is the hardest opening of your career to get.

The problem with the FTU I got my instructor rating through - they are not hiring.
They were the only one available to do the instructor rating with unless I wanted to wait a whole year.
Those cycles may not be an issue for a 20 year old, but for a 35 year old with 2 kids, it is extremely bad. I can't just relocate a teenager from everything and everyone she knows, and the old I get, the less likely I will become for any company. Not to mention, if I am forced into a different industry to make a living, it can be impossible to go back to this low income, and right now I have my own business to supplement, but it won't last forever.
I hoped to secured anything as soon as possible, to start building the time, while the kids are still young and relocating won't effect them as much.

[blorgwinder]

Its tough out there here, if you have then tenacity, the time, and resilience then go for it. Some good tips in the other response, take heed of them

[aviran]

Originally Posted by blorgwinder

Its tough out there here, if you have then tenacity, the time, and resilience then go for it. Some good tips in the other response, take heed of them

At this point I'd work for free just to get enough hours and recommend to secure my class 3. At least I that way I can also try to freelance. Not to mention, more schools are by far interested in a class 3 vs class 4.

[+TSRA]

At this point I'd work for free just to get enough hours and recommend to secure my class 3.

Well, that is certainly one way to be held in disdain by your peers. Those who work for free lower the industry through their selfish actions. If you work for free while building hours for your Class 4, then why not agree to work for three quarters of what another Class 3 would be paid, half for a Class 2, and a quarter for a Class 1?

Almost every pilot has said the same thing at one point or another in their career, but the vast majority don't act on it. Most companies I know or have worked for immediately turn away pilots who agree to work for free. Its a level of desperation they don't want in their organization. As the holder of a Commercial Pilots License, you are a professional pilot. That means you get paid for your experience, knowledge, and skill. If you want to work for free, what was the point of earning a license that permits you to work for hire or reward? You should have stayed a Private Pilot and gotten friends to help share the cost of flying.

You say that you're concerned age is a problem, that you're 35 and you think the issues affect you more than a 20 year old. Not at all. Age is no factor here, only that which you place upon yourself. I've trained many pilots across many parts of the industry who started flying at 35 or 40, were well into their 40s when they started to instruct, and some were into their 50s when starting at a regional airline. Each had personal issues that made their career difficult. Some had families, some had businesses, but all made the necessary sacrifices to make it work. If you use it wisely, your age can be used for enormous benefit when applying. You have more life experience, maturity, and common sense than a person in their early 20s, and you should lean on those transferable skills when applying. But again, you chose to complete an instructor rating at a school that was not hiring, placing you at a point where you are applying at the low end of the annual cycle, so of course you can't find any work right now. But agreeing to work for free is not the way to do it. Sure, you might get some flying that way, but no respectable person will hire you down the road.

The industry is cruel, it eats its young without compassion, and as blorgwinder says, only those with resilience and tenacity survive. If I can be frank for a moment, you should have thought about what the impact to your family and business would look like before you went down the road of completing the instructor rating without the school agreeing to take you on. A pilot in their 20s doesn't have the life experience to avoid being caught up in the hype and emotion. A pilot in their 30s should have the life experience to avoid those mistakes. Sometimes waiting a year is the way to do it. Actually taking someone up on flying for free is not.

[Pilot DAR]

What TSRA said... as always.

As an instructor, particularly for not so young students, a little age and life experience is beneficial. "Established" (particularly male) students are uneasy learning from very youthful instructors.

Gaining experience is a hard path, but each pilot must take it. I don't tend to align well with very low experience instructors doing anything other than the most basic ab initio training. Any more advanced training requires some background in why it is to be done (flown) that way. You have to gain that experience - it takes time, and is expensive. As a Class 4, you are being supervised, that's intentional, to assure that you train within your skill set, as you expand it. We hear of too many accidents which instructor and student aboard, which should not have happened - low experience instructor.

The other thing to consider is your confidence to send a student solo. There's a lot more to that than it seems. I have sweated a number of times, worrying that I had not trained them enough, for what that could next have to deal with. The one time I got that wrong, I hadn't sent him solo yet, so I was onboard for the accident - hard lesson learned!

Out system in Canada as to how, and by whom, flying instruction is given, is really well thought out. Follow the path that everyone else has followed - it's the best you'll find. Do not fly for free, if you do, some one is not taking you seriously. Be serious about flying, and work for people who take you seriously.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by +TSRA

Well, that is certainly one way to be held in disdain by your peers. Those who work for free lower the industry through their selfish actions. If you work for free while building hours for your Class 4, then why not agree to work for three quarters of what another Class 3 would be paid, half for a Class 2, and a quarter for a Class 1?

Almost every pilot has said the same thing at one point or another in their career, but the vast majority don't act on it. Most companies I know or have worked for immediately turn away pilots who agree to work for free. Its a level of desperation they don't want in their organization. As the holder of a Commercial Pilots License, you are a professional pilot. That means you get paid for your experience, knowledge, and skill. If you want to work for free, what was the point of earning a license that permits you to work for hire or reward? You should have stayed a Private Pilot and gotten friends to help share the cost of flying.

You say that you're concerned age is a problem, that you're 35 and you think the issues affect you more than a 20 year old. Not at all. Age is no factor here, only that which you place upon yourself. I've trained many pilots across many parts of the industry who started flying at 35 or 40, were well into their 40s when they started to instruct, and some were into their 50s when starting at a regional airline. Each had personal issues that made their career difficult. Some had families, some had businesses, but all made the necessary sacrifices to make it work. If you use it wisely, your age can be used for enormous benefit when applying. You have more life experience, maturity, and common sense than a person in their early 20s, and you should lean on those transferable skills when applying. But again, you chose to complete an instructor rating at a school that was not hiring, placing you at a point where you are applying at the low end of the annual cycle, so of course you can't find any work right now. But agreeing to work for free is not the way to do it. Sure, you might get some flying that way, but no respectable person will hire you down the road.

The industry is cruel, it eats its young without compassion, and as blorgwinder says, only those with resilience and tenacity survive. If I can be frank for a moment, you should have thought about what the impact to your family and business would look like before you went down the road of completing the instructor rating without the school agreeing to take you on. A pilot in their 20s doesn't have the life experience to avoid being caught up in the hype and emotion. A pilot in their 30s should have the life experience to avoid those mistakes. Sometimes waiting a year is the way to do it. Actually taking someone up on flying for free is not.

Our industry already wants and promote slavery. The whole "ramp to flight" scheme is exactly that. Having people work, for minimum wage, almost two years, in a very physical demanding job, just so they "might" be able to fly later, is exactly that and no different than the "Pay to Fly" Scheme in Europe. Imagine you are told you can pay, not much, for hourly flying a 737. Now imagine you are a young pilot with a 600 hours, but 300 of them are on a 737 or A320. You are in a huge advantage over almost anyone at your TT.

Here is and extremely specific sad example - one company is currently looking for ramper in Yellowknife, they are paying $30,000 a year, for 13-15 hours a day ramp work, where room renting cost $1,500 for a single bedroom in shared accommodations, meaning you have to share a room with someone. Zero promises to advance to flight line, and the last guy they had left after working for nearly a year with no advancement on the horizon.

Can you imagine a doctor being told to work as a janitors before they can work as doctors? We are blaming the people's desperation, but truth to be told - it's driven by the corporations and companies. One is pumping out way more pilots than they should, the other is taking advantage of them and offering wages no sane person would work for when they can make the same money in Tim Hortons or McD. It is that bad that those companies are not eligible for an LMIA because those conditions are not market average so they can't get a TFW to fill it up. That alone speaks loud when a Tim Hortons employees got LMIA.

You are saying "make necessary sacrifice", basically saying they got divorced. There is no way around it - when you are married, and you know it, with kids, specially when some are in school age, and baby age, you can't just make "necessary sacrifice", as you are basically sacrificing your family, unless you get divorced, and that is exactly where the age and family status become a huge factor. Without actual concrete cases, and not the exception (like the 30 hours wonder), but the many who made it work while keeping their family intact, we all know it's a lot to ask.

I'm not posting it to whine or anything, but if it's sacrifice we are talking about, than getting 100 instruction hours without monetary compensation is a big one, and between that and a ramp job - I'd take the class 3 instruction.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

What TSRA said... as always.

As an instructor, particularly for not so young students, a little age and life experience is beneficial. "Established" (particularly male) students are uneasy learning from very youthful instructors.

Gaining experience is a hard path, but each pilot must take it. I don't tend to align well with very low experience instructors doing anything other than the most basic ab initio training. Any more advanced training requires some background in why it is to be done (flown) that way. You have to gain that experience - it takes time, and is expensive. As a Class 4, you are being supervised, that's intentional, to assure that you train within your skill set, as you expand it. We hear of too many accidents which instructor and student aboard, which should not have happened - low experience instructor.

The other thing to consider is your confidence to send a student solo. There's a lot more to that than it seems. I have sweated a number of times, worrying that I had not trained them enough, for what that could next have to deal with. The one time I got that wrong, I hadn't sent him solo yet, so I was onboard for the accident - hard lesson learned!

Out system in Canada as to how, and by whom, flying instruction is given, is really well thought out. Follow the path that everyone else has followed - it's the best you'll find. Do not fly for free, if you do, some one is not taking you seriously. Be serious about flying, and work for people who take you seriously.

It's really thought out, but even my instructor examiner, who is American and know the FAA system, agree the Class 4 needs a overhaul to recommend, not require, a supervision, because he said he does 10 renewals for every initial, and that speaks load on the failed system in Canada. In the US, for example, CFI are the equivalent of class 3, they can do anything the moment they pass their checkride, with the exception of instrument training, multi engine training and new CFI training a. (two require another checkride, the later 2 years of experience)

And many of the US instructors I had were less than one year instructor, and they were good. Being new doesn't mean you are flawed, and the Canadian system have people getting their instructor rating and than sitting on their bum for the next 6-10 months, without getting actual experience, whereas in the US, most instructors get to find a job rather quickly, and build up that experience.

I myself witnessed an accident in Oshawa for a solo student who literally was approved by a class 1 few minutes earlier, and still she crashed that Cessna anyway, so that rubber stamps can be extremely useless sometimes.

So the Canadian system is nowhere near perfect, and even Transport Canada examiners are supporting that, but changing the system is admitting the government did wrong, and no government like to admit it, so like it or not, good or bad - it's here to stay.

Edit: I just got another CFI basically telling me almost no one will hire a class 4 instructor. So yes, I think the Canadian system is extremely stupid and flawed. If that is the case, TC was ought to require any flight school that want to offer the instructor rating to hire the instructor until they reach class 3, to avoid this situation where, unlike other profession, you can't work without supervision that no one will hire. Another option, as brought up the examiner, is to put on class 2 the opposite requirement from class 4 - have, at least, 100 supervision (i.e. 100 recommendations for flight tests and 100 solo approval) before being allowed to advance to class 1, that way flight schools are forced to hire class 4 if they wish to promote their class 2.
It will be very similar to my other profession as paramedic - if you want to be a supervisor over new candidate, you must actively me supervising them, you can't just collect the higher paycheck without actively, everyday doing that job, but in this case, the emphasis will be only on supervisions, as it's the main issue.

Point being - by time I find a job as class 4, if ever, my US peers will already have their ATPL and will be flying FO in the regionals, if not captains. Absolutely no sense in this system.

[Smalahove]

Originally Posted by aviran

It will be very similar to my other profession as paramedic

Wha?? You want to be a flight instructor, and you're a paramedic? Something doesn't add up here. You gonna do your instructing on your days off? I smell fish.

[Pilot DAR]

So yes, I think the Canadian system is extremely stupid and flawed.

Your participation is voluntary.

If that is the case, TC was ought to require any flight school that want to offer the instructor rating to hire the instructor until they reach class 3

I'm pretty sure that TC do not want to be telling flying schools whom to hire.

that way flight schools are forced to hire class 4 if they wish to promote their class 2.

Again, who would do the "forcing"?

I'm guessing that flying schools hire instructors with the experience that the candidate brings to the school in mind. If the instructor is a class 4, that school can probably manage that, while that instructor progresses. During my second round as a student pilot, both of my instructors were +10,000 hour experience pilots (which is why I chose that school). One was an examiner, so I did quite a lot of training with the other instructor, so the examiner could do my ride later. I entered that training with several thousand hours PIC, so I really knew what I was expecting in an instructor. I could care less what class they were, it was their experience in flying I wanted. One was actually a so-so instructor, but he kept me safe while I learned, and allowed me to learn to my capacity - that was all I needed - I knew that if he was quiet, and his hands were on his lap, I was learning safely. Occasionally, there was a "Let me show you..." There was never an "I have control!". That cockpit calm and experience was all I needed.

On the other hand, I have flown with instructors who were like nervous squirrels in the cockpit - that does not instill confidence. Once, I was asked to fly back a school's instructor, after he dropped off the school's 150. I guess that he was not relaxed about my takeoff, as I saw his hands pass uselessly through the space where the right side control wheel would have been, had I had it installed in my plane. His hands continued awkwardly to his lap. He later reported to the CFI that I "was flying my airplane around below stall speed.". The CFI (who knew me well) just asked him: "How?"

Building experience is a challenge, every pilot has been there. If you can do it instructing, then you should. But being a pilot on the rise, with an instructor rating, is not the keys to the kingdom, you're in the queue with many other pilots seeking to build experience. Your best path to advancement is to offer something to the school which makes you stand out above the other candidates. One thing you might offer is your willingness to work within the system that everyone else has advanced with.

To answer your original question ('cause I did think about it), all the flying schools I know do hire from their graduating pilot/instructor group. But, I'm not really on that side of the industry any more, so keep trying. Just avoid telling the CFI that [you] I think the Canadian system is extremely stupid and flawed. It doesn't sound positive.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Smalahove

Wha?? You want to be a flight instructor, and you're a paramedic? Something doesn't add up here. You gonna do your instructing on your days off? I smell fish.

I gave it up a long time ago. I was one, but where I was is basically a warzone, so you don't see the average heart issue, what you see a lot is imputations due to bombings, shrapnel in varies body parts, a lot of trauma victims (both physicals and mental), and it takes a toll. So much so, no one in that organization is there after the age of 45. I went to become paramedicine instructor the moment an opening showed up to save whatever was left of my mental stability.
That is the reality of warzones, btw.

In any case, that is in my past.

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

Your participation is voluntary.



I'm pretty sure that TC do not want to be telling flying schools whom to hire.



Again, who would do the "forcing"?

I'm guessing that flying schools hire instructors with the experience that the candidate brings to the school in mind. If the instructor is a class 4, that school can probably manage that, while that instructor progresses. During my second round as a student pilot, both of my instructors were +10,000 hour experience pilots (which is why I chose that school). One was an examiner, so I did quite a lot of training with the other instructor, so the examiner could do my ride later. I entered that training with several thousand hours PIC, so I really knew what I was expecting in an instructor. I could care less what class they were, it was their experience in flying I wanted. One was actually a so-so instructor, but he kept me safe while I learned, and allowed me to learn to my capacity - that was all I needed - I knew that if he was quiet, and his hands were on his lap, I was learning safely. Occasionally, there was a "Let me show you..." There was never an "I have control!". That cockpit calm and experience was all I needed.

On the other hand, I have flown with instructors who were like nervous squirrels in the cockpit - that does not instill confidence. Once, I was asked to fly back a school's instructor, after he dropped off the school's 150. I guess that he was not relaxed about my takeoff, as I saw his hands pass uselessly through the space where the right side control wheel would have been, had I had it installed in my plane. His hands continued awkwardly to his lap. He later reported to the CFI that I "was flying my airplane around below stall speed.". The CFI (who knew me well) just asked him: "How?"

Building experience is a challenge, every pilot has been there. If you can do it instructing, then you should. But being a pilot on the rise, with an instructor rating, is not the keys to the kingdom, you're in the queue with many other pilots seeking to build experience. Your best path to advancement is to offer something to the school which makes you stand out above the other candidates. One thing you might offer is your willingness to work within the system that everyone else has advanced with.

To answer your original question ('cause I did think about it), all the flying schools I know do hire from their graduating pilot/instructor group. But, I'm not really on that side of the industry any more, so keep trying. Just avoid telling the CFI that [you] I think the Canadian system is extremely stupid and flawed. It doesn't sound positive.

I had the opportunity not many have, which is getting training in 2 different countries, including written exams and flight test. So I can take best of both worlds, and hence why my comment about the Canadian method, but not only from the CARs requirements perspective, but also the lack of accountability and avoiding public input by TC (unlike the FAA), making matters worse than why they ought to be.

How can TC force them to hire? The same way med schools are paramedic schools do - make the class 4 part of the training, so one can not graduate until they have 100 hours of instruction, and the 3-3 recommends. Ain't no one attending a school they can't get their license from.
For example - In Ontario, to get your school bus license you need to pass a road test, but the license is only temporary. The only way to make it permanent is by passing government-approved School Bus Driver Improvement Course (SBDIC). Than, and only than, you will be getting your permanent license. The result? no school that is offering your B license will do so without the SBDIC, as no one will attend them. Like you said, it's voluntary, TC can change the regs and FTU will have to deal with it.

And my examiner concurred, something have to give, or the way he put it - maybe add the 100-100 requirement for class 1 (so any class 2 must have 100 approved recommends of class 4 recommend flight test, with 80% passing in the first attempt, and 100 solo approvals), to show they have met their supervisory burden (remember, you don't actually need to supervise to upgrade to a class 1).

I also disagree that having 10,000 of hours will make you a better instructor, because it takes more than flying skills, it takes human skills, and those can't be taught or gained by flying for the airlines. My class 1 was NEVER an airline pilot, but he was doing instructor instruction for the past 6 years, and he is damn good at it. Hack, my instrument-commercial-multi instructor had less than 1500 hours, but he was also good at it.

Building experience is a challenge, every pilot has been there. If you can do it instructing, then you should. But being a pilot on the rise, with an instructor rating, is not the keys to the kingdom, you're in the queue with many other pilots seeking to build experience. Your best path to advancement is to offer something to the school which makes you stand out above the other candidates. One thing you might offer is your willingness to work within the system that everyone else has advanced with.

I agree, but also disagree. Canada has never being in such oversaturated environment, and just to show you by how much - most schools are booked until mid 2026 with instructor rating course. Unless TC, and the Canadian government take action about the matter, it won't be the same, ever.

[Smalahove]

Originally Posted by aviran

where I was is basically a warzone

Ukraine? Darfur? Gaza? Washington DC?

[aviran]

Originally Posted by Smalahove

Ukraine? Darfur? Gaza? Washington DC?

You named one, but you do know, history goes back more than two years, so try up to 20 years back.

[Pilot DAR]

but also the lack of accountability and avoiding public input by TC

Though cumbersome, as any government department, TC will take comment. You can be assured that a retired TC instructor examiner I know is reading your posts here. More than that I will not say about that. If a good idea is "out there" it'll get some consideration by TC staff. I have learned, in thirty years of expressing my opinion to TC about the rules, that I can change a few (and have), and sometimes there are factors I had not considered so that what I thought was a good idea, has a flaw which makes it unworkable.

make the class 4 part of the training, so one can not graduate until they have 100 hours of instruction, and the 3-3 recommends. Ain't no one attending a school they can't get their license from.

Ummmm... okay, but would that not be a step back from the present situation? Wouldn't it leave the candidate "locked" to that school for much longer than the present system? In any case, if that is the way you would like to continue/complete your training, what stops you from making that agreement with the school before you begin your training there? TC does not need to "regulate" it for you to still be able to negotiate it as a part of your training agreement. In any case, though it sounds like an idea, I would wonder if there were regulatory problems with you conducting commercial training ('not sure who'd be paying whom here...) before you have formally achieved the license you're training for?

.... and those can't be taught or gained by flying for the airlines.

"Airlines" were not the basis of experience for any of my instructors over the years. Those instructors I really admired had bush, police and SAR pilot experience. To me, airline pilot experience is probably valuable if you're training in an airliner for airline type flying - I was not.

I also disagree that having 10,000 of hours will make you a better instructor, because it takes more than flying skills, it takes human skills....

I can see this both ways. 10,000 hours flying in the bush, or flying police or SAR will give that pilot/instructor a wealth of real world experience which circuits, cross countries, or airline flying just cannot match. I learned aircraft handling, maneuvering, and off airport techniques which a "circuits and airways" instructor would be weak with. Human skills are great for leading a "new" student into becoming more engaged at the early phases of flight training, which is why I commented that a new class 4 was probably fine doing ab initio, but there comes a point where the student needs to reach into the training and pull, rather than the instructor pushing. My first flight training, in the mid '70's, in a very formal flying school environment taught me all the basics, and how to follow rules - that has served me very well, right through to right seat turbine corporate flying (which I did not enjoy). My second stint at receiving flight training was entirely different, we're going to make the aircraft do this, and these many factors will affect how it's going to work out. Following rules was much less emphasized, following whisps, and Spidy senses (to use my instructor's terminology) were the focus - and he was right. He was a bit grumpy, and would rather not have been right seat to me, but I sure learned a lot from him - by pulling from him - and he kept me safe while I learned.

Sure, sitting there and listening has merit, but every now and then, asking what more is possible opens the opportunity for more learning. It can really light up another person, and inspire them to share with you....

[+TSRA]

Originally Posted by aviran

It's really thought out, but even my instructor examiner, who is American and know the FAA system, agree the Class 4 needs a overhaul to recommend, not require, a supervision, because he said he does 10 renewals for every initial, and that speaks load on the failed system in Canada. In the US, for example, CFI are the equivalent of class 3, they can do anything the moment they pass their checkride, with the exception of instrument training, multi engine training and new CFI training a. (two require another checkride, the later 2 years of experience)

And many of the US instructors I had were less than one year instructor, and they were good. Being new doesn't mean you are flawed, and the Canadian system have people getting their instructor rating and than sitting on their bum for the next 6-10 months, without getting actual experience, whereas in the US, most instructors get to find a job rather quickly, and build up that experience.

I myself witnessed an accident in Oshawa for a solo student who literally was approved by a class 1 few minutes earlier, and still she crashed that Cessna anyway, so that rubber stamps can be extremely useless sometimes.

So the Canadian system is nowhere near perfect, and even Transport Canada examiners are supporting that, but changing the system is admitting the government did wrong, and no government like to admit it, so like it or not, good or bad - it's here to stay.

Edit: I just got another CFI basically telling me almost no one will hire a class 4 instructor. So yes, I think the Canadian system is extremely stupid and flawed. If that is the case, TC was ought to require any flight school that want to offer the instructor rating to hire the instructor until they reach class 3, to avoid this situation where, unlike other profession, you can't work without supervision that no one will hire. Another option, as brought up the examiner, is to put on class 2 the opposite requirement from class 4 - have, at least, 100 supervision (i.e. 100 recommendations for flight tests and 100 solo approval) before being allowed to advance to class 1, that way flight schools are forced to hire class 4 if they wish to promote their class 2.
It will be very similar to my other profession as paramedic - if you want to be a supervisor over new candidate, you must actively me supervising them, you can't just collect the higher paycheck without actively, everyday doing that job, but in this case, the emphasis will be only on supervisions, as it's the main issue.

Point being - by time I find a job as class 4, if ever, my US peers will already have their ATPL and will be flying FO in the regionals, if not captains. Absolutely no sense in this system.

I agree that ab initio pilot training in Canada requires an overhaul. Our system was seemingly designed for what I would call ritualistic progression. That is the traditional PPL, CPL, Instructor, Bush, and Airlines route. It made sense that a Class 4 would be supervised because there was enough movement through the system that you could all but guarantee the supervision time would be short-lived. That has been disrupted for a myriad of reasons, not least of which is that not enough people want to be pilots. The last stat I remember seeing was that 250 CPLs had been issued in one year, the vast majority of those moving back to Asia. Those are not great numbers considering that, combined, WestJet and Air Canada need somewhere between 500 to 1000 pilots next year. You also now have pilots bypassing the Instructor and Bush component of the industry and coming straight to the airlines. We are seeing the effect where new hire pilots at the airlines don't have the knowledge or skill that our training industry would have developed through that traditional route. Ergo, if this is to continue, we as an industry need to push for TC to update the ab initio training profile. Having also completed by training in two countries, I'm biased to say that I found the New Zealand system far superior to the Canadian one, and the NZ system is loosely based of the European way of doing things. If I was head of TC, that's what I would do - copy the kiwi way of doing licenses and call it a day. Granted, the C-Cat still requires supervision, but I found it less cumbersome.

Also, in another post you talk about poor pilot pay when starting out, and I agree, it's abysmal. In the next few posts, you compare pilots to doctors, lawyers, and paramedics. I'm going to play The Devil's Advocate here: Pilots receive a high wage at the airlines and other parts of the industry not because of our education and experience, but because of the responsibility of carrying so many people. Sure, education and experience plays a part, I'd not compare my flying education to that of a doctor or lawyer. A quick google search shows paramedics require 60 weeks of instruction, or roughly speaking, 2,100 hours of instruction. An MBA requires somewhere around 1,500 hours of study and instruction. The CPL can be taken at 200 hours, meaning that at 600 hours flying time, you have, at best, 780-800 hours of ground training and flight experience, the majority of that not being formal education in a classroom setting. Our education is simply not in the same ballpark. We have a fancy drivers license, that's it. I don't say that to demean our profession, and I cop a lot of flack when I say this, but comparing your starting pay to that of someone who spent double the amount of time receiving an education is flawed. Yes, I believe pilots should be paid a fair wage, but let's at least be honest about our place in the amount of education received for pay earned.

However, all this talk does not help your current predicament. You need a job and you need a job in the current climate, not a future one we may aspire to. Is it hard? Yes. Is it impossible? No. To give an answer to this:

You are saying "make necessary sacrifice", basically saying they got divorced. There is no way around it - when you are married, and you know it, with kids, specially when some are in school age, and baby age, you can't just make "necessary sacrifice", as you are basically sacrificing your family, unless you get divorced, and that is exactly where the age and family status become a huge factor. Without actual concrete cases, and not the exception (like the 30 hours wonder), but the many who made it work while keeping their family intact, we all know it's a lot to ask.

No, you do not have to get divorced. I successfully came through the industry married with a young child. I made the move to Yellowknife and down to Calgary, all with wife and kid in tow because it was either move them around, or not have a career. Was it a struggle? Yes. Do I wish I could have sat at home and have the airline job come to me like some of the junior pilots do now? Yes. But that's not how the industry works in the long-term. And you are not the only pilot to face this issue. I came up through the ranks with many pilots who had a wife and kids. It's not unique. Each of us had to accept the sacrifice. That's not me saying "I did it, so must you", but rather, that's what the industry requires, so either accept it or don't. Yes, it's a lot to ask. And yes, not all marriages make it. It is a huge risk, and it is certainly made worse when you are more established in life than a 20 year old. But, this is part and parcel of the industry you've chosen to enter. It's not fair, it spits out its young, and it's cruel beyond any measure. Yet, I wouldn't have changed a thing in my career.

I strongly suggest you put the energy you have back into finding a job. Find ways of making yourself more attractive as a Class 4. Get a multi-job and build that time so you could become a quick transfer to Group 1 instrument training. Get a float rating if you don't already have it. Get your aerobatic ticket. I am going to be very frank here, the worst thing you can do is continue to sulk about the injustices you believe have been done to you. You are simply going to have to accept that you have to find a way to make this work, or you have to go do something else.

Everyone in this industry has had moments like you are facing now. Some early in their career, some later. Those still flying found a path, even if it was a rough and winding road. Those that are not flying gave up and blamed the industry.

It's your choice which path you will go down. So get at it, or don't.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by aviran

Hello everyone,
I'm just wondering if there are any place left in Canada that are still hiring class 4 instructors?

It's as if it is no longer possible to secure a position.
Even going physically to schools, all of them giving the same answer as they do on the phone - "email your resume for FUTURE considerations", so this method is pretty much dead.
I'm not even a low time instructor (600 hours, 52 Multi time), with group 1 IFR, and it's still impossible to secure a position.

CanShield Aviation in Winnipeg.