Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Canada
Reload this Page >

Lifejackets for commercial seaplane ops

Canada The great white north. A BIG country with few people and LOTS of aviation.

Lifejackets for commercial seaplane ops

Old 24th May 2016, 14:06
  #1 (permalink)  
Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,609
Received 57 Likes on 41 Posts
Lifejackets for commercial seaplane ops

It seems that Transport Canada is moving forward to require all occupants of commercial seaplane operations to wear a lifejacket for the entire flight. This has been a hot topic, which is occasionally fueled by a sad drowning event.

The Canada Gazette: http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2016/ ... .body.html

I will comment this in favour.

I do understand that this will introduce a new burden of maintaining and providing life jackets to passengers, and bring to the forefront the issue of a risk of drowning, but it will save lives, and is worth it. For 25 years, in my other job, I have occasionally searched Lakes Simcoe and Couchiching for people who have entered the water unexpectedly. Every person I have found alive was wearing a lifejacket when I found them. Every person known to have not been wearing a lifejacket, for whom I was asked to search, was not found alive. From my personal experience 100%. When I fly my seaplane, and train other seaplane pilots in theirs, no one will be aboard without their actually wearing a lifejacket.

Experienced seaplane passengers will willingly and properly wear lifejackets (just like wearing seatbelts during jet cruise flight). Inexperienced passengers must be trained - it is our moral duty.

It also sounds like the underwater egress course will be mandated for pilots - excellent! The course I took was super, very enjoyable, and informative, it just makes you think better about being on the water.

I will watch this with interest....
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 24th May 2016, 14:27
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Around
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And how many pax are going to panic and inflate right when they see water, or maybe even before. I'd just hope they get low bouyance units.

Frankly I think far more folks have drown INSIDE the plane than once outside the aircraft.

Where I fly mine, if I ever biffed a landing I'm right next to the shore or shallows anyways, I'm not worried about mortality and morbidity once outside of the plane, it's the getting outside that's the issue.
James331 is offline  
Old 25th May 2016, 01:08
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The pilot is responsible for briefing passengers, and issuing instructions. If passengers do not follow the briefing and instructions, they have created their own risk. There can be no moral reason to not provide the equipment proven to save lives - life jackets only save lives if your wear them.

When I took the dunker course, I thought I would be great at it, and always find the lifejacket in the pouch, and take it with me. Fully briefed and rehearsed, I found it once in four tries, and I was not injured, nor startled.

My passenger today wore the lifejacket I provided, and I briefed him to assure his understanding of it's use, and how to exit the plane. I expect no less of myself.
9 lives is offline  
Old 25th May 2016, 02:00
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The wearing of proper life jackets during flight in sea planes with proper briefing on their use is long over due in my opinion.
Chuck Ellsworth is offline  
Old 25th May 2016, 14:12
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Around
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If you're not factoring in what the average Johnny Q does when chit gets real, you're failing your pax anyways.

Also look at the stats and where people die, your issue ain't life jackets, it's getting people OUT of the aircraft once it goes in.
James331 is offline  
Old 26th May 2016, 02:25
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, egress can be a problem, and a big factor in drownings. but if people make it out, or are pulled out, already having a life jacket on could make a huge difference. If you're injured, it's much more certain to pull a toggle and be floating, than to start to don the lifejacket and fail. Otherwise a passenger who cannot help themselves is much more likely to survive if a fellow passenger simply pulls the toggle on their life jacket, and they float upright on their own.

There will be passengers who never get it - those who unbuckle as soon as the seat belt light is turned off, or try to take their life's belongings as carry on. But education can make a difference for most passengers. A lot of what needs to be taught could be preflight on the internet. Many things are presented that way now, and it works well for most. Even my underwater egress course had an internet precourse!
9 lives is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 03:21
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,172
Received 133 Likes on 60 Posts
Absolutely agree with Chuck and Pilot DAR on this one.
Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Old 31st May 2016, 15:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canadian Shield
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, it might help, but to quote the RAF S&R personnel tasked in retrieving ditched aircrew from the English Channel and North Sea.

Bodies are found in lifejackets. Survivors are found in dinghies.
er340790 is offline  
Old 3rd Jun 2016, 21:25
  #9 (permalink)  
Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,609
Received 57 Likes on 41 Posts
It is true that lifejackets might contain bodies, but at least they were found with less effort, and risk to rescuers. Possibly, the lifejacket found with the body, held an alive person for many hours, who otherwise would have drowned promptly upon immersion.
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2016, 15:15
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: cowtown
Posts: 890
Received 46 Likes on 33 Posts
Aircraft used for Parachute operation have a big red handle to jettison the door for the pilot . In an emergency the pilot can pull the handle to allow him to get out quickly if the aircraft is in a lose of control situation from impact damage from parachute's.
At least one such door should be on a float plane as this will allow easier egress if the aircraft becomes inverted on the water .




The underwater egress course teaches how to "locate" your nearest exit in an emergency.
Count the seats to the exit and now close your eyes and imagine how you would get out in a dark smoke filled environment. Easy to get out if you are ready for the fight .
I escaped a fire on a lifting barge using that technique. Made one left turn one right turn and two flights of stairs on one breath without panic or breathing any of the smoke .


A professional video demonstration is also shown on some oil rig flights to remind passengers how to survive emergencies .
The big red handle door mod has been done on many aircraft and would not cost that much or add much to maintenance on one door.


Although the pilot could only use the big red handle, if he remembers to use his shoulder harness .
fitliker is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2016, 23:05
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 25
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I used to work for a very safety conscious forestry company in B.C. The Chief Forester was flying to a remote logging site and when he boarded the float plane, he put on his lifejacket as required by our company policy. The pilot demanded that he remove it as "it was alarming the other passengers". He, of course, complied, but when the curtain was drawn (no flight deck doors on this baby) he managed to wriggle into the thing. Everybody happy!!
Helena Handbasket is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2016, 16:27
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here is another true story:

- There have been hundreds of deaths in floatplane accidents (452 between 1976 and 1990).

- Almost all of the fatalities for people who manage to exit the cabin after a floatplane crash are due to drowning.

- In a floatplane accident you could be upside down within seconds. When was the last time you saw a cruise ship sink in seconds?

- The Georgia Strait is quite different in summer vs winter.

- Some people might not be able to swim without a lifevest (elderly people). I guess they can just go screw themselves according to your logic

I don't particularly care if there are laws for seatbelts, bike helmets, lifevests, etc. Natural selection works pretty well
CpnCrunch is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2016, 16:44
  #13 (permalink)  
Moderator
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,609
Received 57 Likes on 41 Posts
I have commented to the government:


I would like to comment in favour of the proposed regulatory change to require the wearing of life jackets by occupants of commercial (or really all) water borne aircraft (or indeed, all water borne craft - but that's a broader battle!).

I have been a pilot for 39 years, a seaplane pilot for 30 years, a seaplane owner for 8 years, and a volunteer firefighter with extensive marine search and rescue experience for 24 years. I have taken the underwater egress course, and trained fire fighters in "go type" marine rescue. It is my first hand experience that any person entering the water by surprise, and worse if the water is cold, or the person injured, is at a very much greater risk of drowning if they do not have a lifejacket on already. Having done it in training, with briefing and practice, it is very hard to locate a stowed lifejacket, and exit a submerged plane with it, let alone don it afterward - and worse if injured or hypothermic. An injured or unconscious person in the water can be much more easily assisted, if all the rescuer has to do to stabilize the situation is to pull the inflate tab of their life jacket to keep them afloat. Otherwise both people are at an increased risk.

It is, and always has been less than fully responsible for an operator or pilot to allow any occupant of the aircraft to fly without wearing a life jacket. (I provide, and require wearing one of all my passengers). As the passengers won't take responsibility for demanding a life jacket or carrying their own, and operators won't take responsibility for requiring wearing one, it's time for regulation. Indeed, with the exception of larger vessels, I suggest that while a passenger on anything that operates on water, where water entry is a risk, the wearing of a life jacket should be mandatory. Were this an enforced regulation, hundreds of aircraft passengers, boaters, kayakers, rafters, snowmobiliers - and the whale watchers off Tofino a few years ago, would still be alive.

The risk is not the passenger's alone to assess (and dismiss). The person who accidentally enters the water, and requires rescue (or recovery) imposes risk and cost on society far out of proportion to the cost and inconvenience of wearing the lifjacket in the first place. I have personally gone into the water, and onto thin ice, and lifted a drowned person out, it's risky, and just not very nice. None were wearing a life jacket.

Therefore, I wholeheartedly support this regulatory change, and hope that in the future it will extend more broadly to all smaller water borne craft. Perhaps, like seatbelts, life jacket use will become more common and accepted, if required to begin with!
For those who have not, go and take the underwater egress course, and after that, return here to comment lifejacket use. I thought I could always get out with a life jacket in hand, until I tried to do it! I have swum in an inverted 185 during recovery, it is dark, and very disorienting. Somethings are much more difficult than you imagine!
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2016, 20:29
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 73
Posts: 457
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
Good afternoon Pilot DAR

Seems like a thousand years ago in another age I was flying corporate and the company I flew for had a DHC-2 amphibious Beaver. As I was the only one with a float endorsement (about 50 hours I might add) I got the job to fly this lovely aircraft. It was even IFR equipped only item missing was a glide slope but I digress.

Due to the individuals I was flying it was mandated that we all wear life jackets by the companies insurance for the executives and their families.

It became second nature after a while and I did not even mind wearing them as they were ex-military CO-2 life vests all properly certified.

You have a valid point about getting out of a sinking airplane and unless if blow a bubble or two you have no way of knowing which way is up. Throw in early or late flying into the mix with hypothermia in the equation not to mention health and age it can go south real fast.

Obviously those who have commented against wearing life jackets never made it above a PPL as they would not have had additional training such as A.R.T. etc

Never had to use a life jacket for its intended purpose but like fire insurance coverage you are glad to have it when it is needed.
a330pilotcanada is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2016, 23:05
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Timbukthree
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not comparing float planes to turboprop airliners, but the article is thought provoking :https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/200...e_jackets.html

Last edited by evansb; 8th Jun 2016 at 01:42.
evansb is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2016, 00:46
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So you're comparing a 2-engine turbofan/turboprop within 50 miles of shore - which has never resulted in a water landing in Canada (that I can think of) - to floatplanes which land in the water all the time and have had thousands of accidents when landing? Great analogy!
CpnCrunch is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2016, 02:23
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The new inflatable line of life jackets are easy to put on, wear and take off.

If it only saves one life that makes it worth while taking the time to wear one.

If it saves your life that is priceless.

We always wore inflatable vests when flying the heavy water bombers and also Gen Tex Helmets.

I never had to use the life vests but the Gen Tex sure made flying them so much more comfortable and at the end of the day we were far less tired because they protected out skulls from the noise and shock waves the props made.
Chuck Ellsworth is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2016, 13:05
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I find myself at the counter, paying for fuel, still wearing my Mustang or EAM inflatable life jacket, because I have forgotten I was wearing it when I got out of the plane.

In addition to the feeling of security knowing I have it on going out the door if something happens, I also like the idea that it could be an improvised "airbag" should a rough forced land landing be immanent.

I have my life jackets set up with a few "extras" tucked inside (all tied to a line). Flashlight, Red LED wristband, emergency fire starter, and a well protected wire wood saw. I once had a friend survive the crash, and get to shore, to sped a night with nothing, because his emergency kit sank with the plane. So I take a minimum with me.
9 lives is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2016, 07:43
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saigon SGN/VVTS
Posts: 6,625
Received 58 Likes on 42 Posts
ST,

Can you post the name of a recommended "emergency fire starter" and how you stow your kit in your life jacket ?
India Four Two is offline  
Old 16th Jun 2016, 10:49
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In my life jacket pocket, I carry:



And:



But there are many other similar products. I have tried them and they work well. My only comment is that the magnesium bar must be sealed away from moisture, or it will corrode.
9 lives is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.