Passengers manipulating controls
Thread Starter
Passengers manipulating controls
I'm just getting involved in gliding and towing again after eight years away from Canada.
I will be re-validating my gliding instructor's rating but in the mean time I am planning to go flying with friends. I was recently told by a current instructor that only instructors can allow passengers to manipulate the controls.
In the forty years I've been flying in Canada, I've never heard of this before. Can anyone confirm or deny this, or point me to a reference in the CARs or AIM?
As an aside, the indexing on the TC website is a joke.
I will be re-validating my gliding instructor's rating but in the mean time I am planning to go flying with friends. I was recently told by a current instructor that only instructors can allow passengers to manipulate the controls.
In the forty years I've been flying in Canada, I've never heard of this before. Can anyone confirm or deny this, or point me to a reference in the CARs or AIM?
As an aside, the indexing on the TC website is a joke.
Hi India,
A quick stab didn't find anything, but as you infered - not surprising.
It is stated in our locally based airline flight operations manual that only rated and approved pilots may manipulate the controls of company aircraft, you may wonder if it was put in there BECAUSE there is no CAR prohibiting it...
A case may be made on the basis of "industry standard" for the acceptability of "non rated" pilots allowing passengers to manipulate controls, as found during instructor courses. Since time immemorial, instructor candidates (de facto sans instructor ratings) go out and inflict their new almost-found skills on friends and family.
This practice is almost universal in power flying - at least in Canada, since it's cheaper than flying with the Class 1 Instructor. I feel that, in reality, it IS better practice to try and fix Attitudes & Movements into a little brothers vacant skull (to pick a personal example) rather than trying to pretend the vacant look on the 15,000 hr CFI's face isn't hiding a vast and judgemental contempt of your feeble attempt to tell him where to put the nose. You KNOW he knows!
.
I wonder if this "hands-off" idea has come up because in the Canadian glider world, it is the standard to only graduate from "Instructor Camps", where the only "solo" practice is done with the other instructor candidates - of course both having licences. In the power world instructor candidates come and go at random times, and the victim is usually chosen from the nearest slow moving cluster....
If you do find something, I'd be interested in hearing the result.
Perservere, we'll probably see you out at Cu-Nim later this year....
A quick stab didn't find anything, but as you infered - not surprising.
It is stated in our locally based airline flight operations manual that only rated and approved pilots may manipulate the controls of company aircraft, you may wonder if it was put in there BECAUSE there is no CAR prohibiting it...
A case may be made on the basis of "industry standard" for the acceptability of "non rated" pilots allowing passengers to manipulate controls, as found during instructor courses. Since time immemorial, instructor candidates (de facto sans instructor ratings) go out and inflict their new almost-found skills on friends and family.
This practice is almost universal in power flying - at least in Canada, since it's cheaper than flying with the Class 1 Instructor. I feel that, in reality, it IS better practice to try and fix Attitudes & Movements into a little brothers vacant skull (to pick a personal example) rather than trying to pretend the vacant look on the 15,000 hr CFI's face isn't hiding a vast and judgemental contempt of your feeble attempt to tell him where to put the nose. You KNOW he knows!
. I wonder if this "hands-off" idea has come up because in the Canadian glider world, it is the standard to only graduate from "Instructor Camps", where the only "solo" practice is done with the other instructor candidates - of course both having licences. In the power world instructor candidates come and go at random times, and the victim is usually chosen from the nearest slow moving cluster....
If you do find something, I'd be interested in hearing the result.
Perservere, we'll probably see you out at Cu-Nim later this year....
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont think another regulation or CARS reference is needed here, how about a good pasenger briefing and a liberall aplication of common sense? I think the following quote from Douglas Bader is qute enough , "Rules are for the blind obedience of fools, and the guidence of wise men".
Thread Starter
clunckdriver,
I absolutely agree with you. I am not for a minute suggesting that more regulation is needed.
It is just that in my over-forty years of flying in five countries, I have never heard of a regulation forbidding it and yet two instructors that I talked to were adamant that it was in the CARS.
jamesel,
See my PM
I absolutely agree with you. I am not for a minute suggesting that more regulation is needed.
It is just that in my over-forty years of flying in five countries, I have never heard of a regulation forbidding it and yet two instructors that I talked to were adamant that it was in the CARS.
jamesel,
See my PM
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is just that in my over-forty years of flying in five countries, I have never heard of a regulation forbidding it and yet two instructors that I talked to were adamant that it was in the CARS.
Thread Starter
Chuck,
I haven't challenged them yet. I wanted some external support/evidence before I raised the issue.
I haven't challenged them yet. I wanted some external support/evidence before I raised the issue.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't believe there is such a reg. If there is, then every pilot building hours from a PPL to CPL has at least some explaining to do!
In saying that, I've just spent about 20 minutes going through Part VI, and here is where I think they may be hanging their hat:
602.01 - Reckless or Negligent Operation of an Aircraft. The logic here is that a non-pilot flying an aircraft could be considered as "likely to endanger the life or property of a person."
602.07 - Aircraft Operating Limitations. The logic being that the non-pilot does not know the limitations, therefore cannot fly the aircraft within them.
Those are the only two regs that I could find that these flight instructors are thinking about. Most of the other regs start with "The Pilot-in-Command shall..." which only means the PIC needs to comply, which could be through an instruction given to a non-pilot. Any of the other regs I considered have "crew member" in the title, which a non-pilot is not - a technicality, but...
Indeed, you could always go back to the flight instructors and say that per 602.05 - Compliance with instructions, a non-pilot operating the aircraft is simply following the instructions of the PIC!
It would be interesting to see what anyone else comes up with though.
In saying that, I've just spent about 20 minutes going through Part VI, and here is where I think they may be hanging their hat:
602.01 - Reckless or Negligent Operation of an Aircraft. The logic here is that a non-pilot flying an aircraft could be considered as "likely to endanger the life or property of a person."
602.07 - Aircraft Operating Limitations. The logic being that the non-pilot does not know the limitations, therefore cannot fly the aircraft within them.
Those are the only two regs that I could find that these flight instructors are thinking about. Most of the other regs start with "The Pilot-in-Command shall..." which only means the PIC needs to comply, which could be through an instruction given to a non-pilot. Any of the other regs I considered have "crew member" in the title, which a non-pilot is not - a technicality, but...
Indeed, you could always go back to the flight instructors and say that per 602.05 - Compliance with instructions, a non-pilot operating the aircraft is simply following the instructions of the PIC!
It would be interesting to see what anyone else comes up with though.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I took TC staff to task on this a few years back. I used to do the right seat pilot thing for a buddy, who had an interruption in his medical. TC was all over me for the notion that I would let an experienced pilot owner fly his single Cessna from the left, while I occupied the right. But they could not seem to come up with an actual regulation prohibiting it. I was just supposed to instinctively adverse to the idea.
I pushed the topic with TC. It would have been okay, were I to have been an instructor, but apparently my having several hundred of my many thousand hours, on type, and being insured myself on that plane were not good enough. If I were a few hundred hours as an instructor, that would make it all okay.
So what did TC perceive the risk to be? It boiled down to the notion that because my buddy had temporarily lost his medical, there was a perception of incapacitation risk (the medical issue was not that). So, I ask him to wear his shoulder harness, as I would anyone in a front seat. Not good enough, I had to be an instructor.
So, I asked, how would a newbie instructor be any more able to deal with an incapacitated front seat occupant than I? No answer. I could take a passenger in the right seat, who could fall forward on the controls as equally as the fellow I let fly from the right. No answer.
About this time, as the TC staff member began a nervous fidget, I imagined his hand reaching for that secret alarm button under the desk, and I would have a SWAT team burst in in moments. So I backed off. I told him politely, that if TC were interested in who was actually flying a plane under my command, they better fly in formation, with binoculars, otherwise give it up...
I like Clunkdriver's approach, any pilot with a common sense endorsement can do what they feel is safe. We will not inspire a new generation of pilots, by swatting their hands off the controls. Indeed, I take the opposite approach with some older kids. In cruise flight, all trimmed up, I put my hands on my lap, and tell them that they'd better fly,if they want the plane to be flown...
So, I24, I'd be okay with your letting passengers fly, if you're comfortable with it - please do... One in particular, at least...
I pushed the topic with TC. It would have been okay, were I to have been an instructor, but apparently my having several hundred of my many thousand hours, on type, and being insured myself on that plane were not good enough. If I were a few hundred hours as an instructor, that would make it all okay.
So what did TC perceive the risk to be? It boiled down to the notion that because my buddy had temporarily lost his medical, there was a perception of incapacitation risk (the medical issue was not that). So, I ask him to wear his shoulder harness, as I would anyone in a front seat. Not good enough, I had to be an instructor.
So, I asked, how would a newbie instructor be any more able to deal with an incapacitated front seat occupant than I? No answer. I could take a passenger in the right seat, who could fall forward on the controls as equally as the fellow I let fly from the right. No answer.
About this time, as the TC staff member began a nervous fidget, I imagined his hand reaching for that secret alarm button under the desk, and I would have a SWAT team burst in in moments. So I backed off. I told him politely, that if TC were interested in who was actually flying a plane under my command, they better fly in formation, with binoculars, otherwise give it up...
I like Clunkdriver's approach, any pilot with a common sense endorsement can do what they feel is safe. We will not inspire a new generation of pilots, by swatting their hands off the controls. Indeed, I take the opposite approach with some older kids. In cruise flight, all trimmed up, I put my hands on my lap, and tell them that they'd better fly,if they want the plane to be flown...
So, I24, I'd be okay with your letting passengers fly, if you're comfortable with it - please do... One in particular, at least...
I don't have time to look it up but there is also a regulation in Part IV which states that no person shall exercise the privileges of a flight crew member unless they meet to conditions of issuance for the applicable license and/or ratings for such a crew member (including currency requirements) and can produce said licence on demand. Even a student pilot on their permit is considered a flight crew member (with very limited privileges). One of the privileges of a crew member is manipulation of the controls, otherwise we wouldn't need licences. Since only a flight instructor's licence privileges include the ability to allow a non-licensed person to manipulate flight controls, I believe this is directly on point to the OP's question.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For sure it is extremely dangerous to allow a non licensed / permitted non pilot to manipulate the flight controls in an aircraft.
I am shocked anyone would even ask such a question, the thousands of people who have died doing this is proof positive you must have an instructors rating to allow anyone not licensed to touch the controls.
But I hear that the deep thinkers in Ottawa are about to fix this problem by envokling a fee to allow non instructors to do this.
C.E.
I am shocked anyone would even ask such a question, the thousands of people who have died doing this is proof positive you must have an instructors rating to allow anyone not licensed to touch the controls.
But I hear that the deep thinkers in Ottawa are about to fix this problem by envokling a fee to allow non instructors to do this.
C.E.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I for one will feel much safer Chuck, when I hand over the $75.00 or so fee to put a sticker in my booklet to allow non-pilot friends to fly the airplane.
I'm very certain that fee will cover the wage for the inspector that will be hired to roam around private airfields at night, waiting in the shadows for some unsuspecting pilot dreaming of letting their non-pilot friends fly. How dare they think they can fly - they haven't paid the government the licensing fee. Not like the instructors of the world who paid the extra fees up front.
Yes, this will teach us pilots our proper place in the world. Oh, the safety net I feel around me like a snuggie right now is so warm and soft. I don't have a care in the world this morning. I think I'll go have another Earl Grey.
Uh oh...I never sent in my application to handle hot water. Damn.
I'm very certain that fee will cover the wage for the inspector that will be hired to roam around private airfields at night, waiting in the shadows for some unsuspecting pilot dreaming of letting their non-pilot friends fly. How dare they think they can fly - they haven't paid the government the licensing fee. Not like the instructors of the world who paid the extra fees up front.
Yes, this will teach us pilots our proper place in the world. Oh, the safety net I feel around me like a snuggie right now is so warm and soft. I don't have a care in the world this morning. I think I'll go have another Earl Grey.
Uh oh...I never sent in my application to handle hot water. Damn.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well there are several things Government have such as a surplus of employees with nothing productive to do.
What I understand happened was they were trying to figure out how they can actually catch us allowing a non licensed pilot to handle the controls in flight and one day they filled the room with nothing better to do employees and the collective IQ in the room reached high functioning moron level and someone blurted out, lets make a rule that all light aircraft must have video cameras operating at all times in flight.
That way we can ramp check pilots as our need for money dictates.
So what one has to do when ramp checked is tell them to fu.k off like I do.
Then they will have to keep meeting again until their collective IQ reaches high functioning moron level again....so we could be worry free for a very long time.
What I understand happened was they were trying to figure out how they can actually catch us allowing a non licensed pilot to handle the controls in flight and one day they filled the room with nothing better to do employees and the collective IQ in the room reached high functioning moron level and someone blurted out, lets make a rule that all light aircraft must have video cameras operating at all times in flight.
That way we can ramp check pilots as our need for money dictates.
So what one has to do when ramp checked is tell them to fu.k off like I do.
Then they will have to keep meeting again until their collective IQ reaches high functioning moron level again....so we could be worry free for a very long time.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 27th Mar 2015 at 15:51.
