Airlines have little control over frustrating delays
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Airlines have little control over frustrating delays
Good Morning All:
This is from today's Ottawa Citizen which is a well written letter from the cockpits perspective on weather related delays.
Airlines have little control over frustrating delays
By Ian Rothwell, Ottawa Citizen January 13, 2014 8:05 AM
Though it is frustrating to deal with flight delays, ultimately, safety must prevail, says airline pilot Ian Rothwell.
Photograph by: Wayne Cuddington, Ottawa Citizen Files , Ottawa Citizen
Re: Stand up to airlines, rights advocate urges passengers, Jan. 10.
I have been an airline pilot for more than 30 years and seen my fair share of delays. The reality is that the airline has little if any control over any delays at all. Air traffic control dictates the flow of aircraft to maintain safety and the airline has no control of it. The airport authority handles snow removal on ramps and taxiways and the airline has no control of it. The de-ice facility maintains control of the speed and metering of aircraft through the facility and the airline has no control of it. Catering, fuel, sometimes aircraft servicing are handled by third parties. Yet somehow passengers' rights advocate Gabor Lukacs and others seem to feel it is the airline's fault.
My job as an airline pilot is to get people and their loved ones safely to their destination. It's frustrating for us also to be delayed but ultimately safety has to prevail, and if takes hours of delays to clean the runway, de-ice the airplane, move aircraft with positive separation through the skies, fuel the aircraft and make sure the airplane is fit to fly, then that is what has to happen. The airline has no control of it.
I will say this, In Canada, we attempt to persevere through storms and keep things rolling no matter what the conditions. Our American counterparts, in turn, just close the airport to any traffic at all, and some airlines just cancel all flights for a few days and say rebook on their website.
I am not sure which is the better philosophy but at least we try our best here.
Imagine this: a bus pulls out of the bus depot in a winter storm on a one-hour journey to destination. The bus driver is on time and the bus is serviceable and ready for the journey. The driver can't turn left onto the highway because the O.P.P. has shut the highway due to icing and snow squalls. The driver can't go straight ahead because the city has snow clearing operations in effect to remove excess snow and ice from the road. He has to turn right onto a toll road but because of conditions, they are only taking 50 vehicles an hour and there more than 1,000 trying to get on. It's going to take more than 4.5 hours to get there. Is this the bus company's fault? Do we need a passenger bill of rights for buses in this case?
Ian Rothwell,
Ottawa
This is from today's Ottawa Citizen which is a well written letter from the cockpits perspective on weather related delays.
Airlines have little control over frustrating delays
By Ian Rothwell, Ottawa Citizen January 13, 2014 8:05 AM
Though it is frustrating to deal with flight delays, ultimately, safety must prevail, says airline pilot Ian Rothwell.
Photograph by: Wayne Cuddington, Ottawa Citizen Files , Ottawa Citizen
Re: Stand up to airlines, rights advocate urges passengers, Jan. 10.
I have been an airline pilot for more than 30 years and seen my fair share of delays. The reality is that the airline has little if any control over any delays at all. Air traffic control dictates the flow of aircraft to maintain safety and the airline has no control of it. The airport authority handles snow removal on ramps and taxiways and the airline has no control of it. The de-ice facility maintains control of the speed and metering of aircraft through the facility and the airline has no control of it. Catering, fuel, sometimes aircraft servicing are handled by third parties. Yet somehow passengers' rights advocate Gabor Lukacs and others seem to feel it is the airline's fault.
My job as an airline pilot is to get people and their loved ones safely to their destination. It's frustrating for us also to be delayed but ultimately safety has to prevail, and if takes hours of delays to clean the runway, de-ice the airplane, move aircraft with positive separation through the skies, fuel the aircraft and make sure the airplane is fit to fly, then that is what has to happen. The airline has no control of it.
I will say this, In Canada, we attempt to persevere through storms and keep things rolling no matter what the conditions. Our American counterparts, in turn, just close the airport to any traffic at all, and some airlines just cancel all flights for a few days and say rebook on their website.
I am not sure which is the better philosophy but at least we try our best here.
Imagine this: a bus pulls out of the bus depot in a winter storm on a one-hour journey to destination. The bus driver is on time and the bus is serviceable and ready for the journey. The driver can't turn left onto the highway because the O.P.P. has shut the highway due to icing and snow squalls. The driver can't go straight ahead because the city has snow clearing operations in effect to remove excess snow and ice from the road. He has to turn right onto a toll road but because of conditions, they are only taking 50 vehicles an hour and there more than 1,000 trying to get on. It's going to take more than 4.5 hours to get there. Is this the bus company's fault? Do we need a passenger bill of rights for buses in this case?
Ian Rothwell,
Ottawa
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When I worked for an airline and we had delays, I was usually the one called on to deal with the customers. The delays in those days were mostly equipment related and we used to get belligerent a***holes yelling at us. Most of them were US American and I pointed out to them that the delay was caused by a technical problem on a US built component of a US built aircraft. That usually shut them up.
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Interesting letter..and true that the airline has no control over the weather.
The comments on AVCanada on YYZ closing last week were ill informed in the extreme given the circumstances the airport found itself in. Pilots, GTAA and air traffic control did an excellent job in the circumstances...and the ground stop that eventually came about was due to a "snowball" effect for want of a less wintery expression!
Having said that...the airlines could help themselves a little bit on the customer service end of things....the stories from the terminal on how cancellations and queues and the like were dealt with are haphazard to say the least (family was travelling so I heard stories first hand). Passengers "should" understand when circumstances are out of the airlines hands...they don't understand being made to line up for 4-8 hours with no information available before being told that the flight was cancelled 4-8 hours ago.
The comments on AVCanada on YYZ closing last week were ill informed in the extreme given the circumstances the airport found itself in. Pilots, GTAA and air traffic control did an excellent job in the circumstances...and the ground stop that eventually came about was due to a "snowball" effect for want of a less wintery expression!
Having said that...the airlines could help themselves a little bit on the customer service end of things....the stories from the terminal on how cancellations and queues and the like were dealt with are haphazard to say the least (family was travelling so I heard stories first hand). Passengers "should" understand when circumstances are out of the airlines hands...they don't understand being made to line up for 4-8 hours with no information available before being told that the flight was cancelled 4-8 hours ago.
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Married a Canuck, I beg to differ, this is not the UK and Toronto is not Heathrow, yes the weather was bloody awefull, but the management ignored {or just dont know} some of the "tricks of the trade" learned and used in the past to keep airports opperating during such weather, I shall explain. {1} In the past, before privitization of airports and ATC, managers were much more" hands on" than the majority of those apointed to these positions today, as an example, in the past when freezing rain was forecast at many airports the crews would blow snow back onto the runway forcast to be into wind when the ZR had quit, this was also done to taxiways leading to this runway, thus when the ZR quit it was just a matter of blowing the blown snow from the surface, with the crusted ice on top, and one was back in buisiness. Yes , opperations would be reduced a bit as normally this could only be done to about 50% of the runways, but it didnt shut the whole frigging airport! A few years back at a meeting with airport management {post privitization} this was brought up by a VERY experienced airport forman, the reply from the airport manager,{ who was a political appointment by the way}" was that a cost study would have to be done to see if the airport would benifit by using this procedure," we were speachless, no mention of pasengers, airlines or keeping our nations transportation moving! As for the line ups, just another example of total deregulation, cost cutting and the overall "race to the bottom" Im afraid, the bean counters rule, and if you want folks to work moving bags in low temps they shoud br provided with standard cold weather gear and be paid more than minimum wage.As for bags not turning up for two weeks, the answer is simple, under total deregulation one no longer has to show that one has agreements with airports and contractors to which ones aircraft may be forced to divert to in the event of severe weather, before total deregulation this along with maintainance contracts had to be in place before an OC would be granted. {Go read up on why CP was denied trans continental rights way back when they wanted to go head to head with TCA}It makes for interesting reading.The solution? maybe a return to some of the pre deregulation requirments to obtain an OC, not the draconion monstor it turned into, but some enforcement of standards and requirments to prevent such shambles as we have seen, and one more thing, lock the "bean counters" in a dark room and give operational controll back to the "hands on" folks!
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Clunck
Interesting post...the second half of which I agree with a lot of you say.
However
Sorry Clunck but that simply does not apply at YYZ nor could it ever remotely work!? Don't go down the road of "other airports do this" because I am sorry..as I have said on other threads NO airport the size of YYZ would do this and it dosen't have anything to do with "bean counters" or the like...but straight forward operational efficiency. No one yet has been able to answer questions about what to do with the A380 and all the heavies. There are posts on the avcanada forum about trying to taxi in the conditions ...and they don't make for a nice experience.
The snowclearing/snowplough operation that the GTAA employs is more than capable of keeping the runways clear of snow and ice and what is not being reported is that the runways were useable during the worst of the weather. (Cargo and Biz jet traffic was unaffected during the ground stop).
Why would GTAA brass want to employ a method that contaminates the surface of an active taxiway and runway...when that taxiway and runway are already part of the circuit of snow clearing/chemical treating equipment that they already have...and you try finding a time to actually do it that dosen't delay operations even further than they already would be with bad weather approaching. I challenge you to name the airports that used this method in the past and why they would be more efficient than what Pearson does now.
In my years of working over here now....I have never seen YYZ lose the runways due to heavy snow...they always are trying to keep one as clean as possible.
I am usually a very vocal critic of the GTAA and for SURE there were a LOT of things that could have been done better during the ice storm....and fuel, bags, passenger deplaning etc are things that I really hope are addressed with the upcoming review.
However...criticism of the snow/ice clearing operation at YYZ is unwarranted given how well they do in comparison other airports their size. Look at the US airports...they all shut down. The media didn't report that on the Sunday night, Pearson took in about 20-30 diversions from YUL, YOW and YTZ...at a time of night that it would usually be "quiet".
Rest assured that the "hands on" folks kept runways as clear as possible and got the taxiways and manouvering areas cleaned and sanded as quickly as able.
The rest? We will see what this review board that was mentioned today comes up with. YYZ and GTAA bashing is an easy topic.
On this one issue of winter clearing and winter ops....they are better than the competition I am afraid.
Interesting post...the second half of which I agree with a lot of you say.
However
know} some of the "tricks of the trade" learned and used in the past to keep airports opperating during such weather, I shall explain. {1} In the past, before privitization of airports and ATC, managers were much more" hands on" than the majority of those apointed to these positions today, as an example, in the past when freezing rain was forecast at many airports the crews would blow snow back onto the runway forcast to be into wind when the ZR had quit, this was also done to taxiways leading to this runway, thus when the ZR quit it was just a matter of blowing the blown snow from the surface, with the crusted ice on top, and one was back in buisiness. Yes , opperations would be reduced a bit as normally this could only be done to about 50% of the runways, but it didnt shut the whole frigging airport!
The snowclearing/snowplough operation that the GTAA employs is more than capable of keeping the runways clear of snow and ice and what is not being reported is that the runways were useable during the worst of the weather. (Cargo and Biz jet traffic was unaffected during the ground stop).
Why would GTAA brass want to employ a method that contaminates the surface of an active taxiway and runway...when that taxiway and runway are already part of the circuit of snow clearing/chemical treating equipment that they already have...and you try finding a time to actually do it that dosen't delay operations even further than they already would be with bad weather approaching. I challenge you to name the airports that used this method in the past and why they would be more efficient than what Pearson does now.
In my years of working over here now....I have never seen YYZ lose the runways due to heavy snow...they always are trying to keep one as clean as possible.
I am usually a very vocal critic of the GTAA and for SURE there were a LOT of things that could have been done better during the ice storm....and fuel, bags, passenger deplaning etc are things that I really hope are addressed with the upcoming review.
However...criticism of the snow/ice clearing operation at YYZ is unwarranted given how well they do in comparison other airports their size. Look at the US airports...they all shut down. The media didn't report that on the Sunday night, Pearson took in about 20-30 diversions from YUL, YOW and YTZ...at a time of night that it would usually be "quiet".
Rest assured that the "hands on" folks kept runways as clear as possible and got the taxiways and manouvering areas cleaned and sanded as quickly as able.
The rest? We will see what this review board that was mentioned today comes up with. YYZ and GTAA bashing is an easy topic.
On this one issue of winter clearing and winter ops....they are better than the competition I am afraid.
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" Married a Canuck", "Agree with the second part", Well, getting a Brit to agree with that much I feel Ive achieved a breakthrough! As for your dismisal of covering surfaces during ZR, there is since the demise of the BAC111, no aircraft is certified to fly knowingly into heavy ice conditions, so if the snow cover is applied during ZR then your arguments just dont hold water, {freezing or liquid} as nothing should be flying, the other choice being that Toronto didnt experience a severe ice storm, {In the storm around here a few years back I saved layers six and a half inches thick, we did in fact give samples to the Enviroment Canada boffins who came by collecting examples of the coverage, six million lost power by the way} Of to the UK at months end, lets hope they dont get more than one CM of the white stuff, we know what happens when they do!
Last edited by clunckdriver; 18th Jan 2014 at 00:07.
On old story
"Having said that...the airlines could help themselves a little bit on the customer service end of things....the stories from the terminal on how cancellations and queues and the like were dealt with are haphazard to say the least (family was travelling so I heard stories first hand)."
An old sad story. In 30 plus years of flying as SLF I have only once meet an airline that , top to bottom, treats the customers as , well customers, rather than inconvenient barnacles to be kept in the dark. That is Southwest
Why there are not more riots and hostage events in airports amazes me. Given the way airlines treat their customers, frankly they deserve to have a few well roasted managers. (Not that you'll ever, ever find a real manager on a concourse when the stuff hits the fan. Leave that to the lowly, ill paid and ill informed CSR's)
The storm was predicted well in advance, this was not a meteor strike or tsunami or good forbid a crash. It was a winter storm that happens in Canada regularly. No excuses, everyone saw it coming.
There are dozens of pro active measures all the airlines could have taken to alleviate the stress on the system and their customers and clearly very little was done. The bottom line is the airlines have your money. You have no real choice in who you fly and they have absolutely no cost associated with you standing in line for hours, so they will let you stand in line. No skin of their nose.
In contrast I was recently on a SWA flight, loaded and ready for pushback. A windshield heater when tech and the gate agent in charge - and he was in charge, gave us the news. Plane was tech, they were looking at alternates and some people might miss connections.
He delivered the news so well, making it clear he cared and was going to bust his hump for all of us. He got a round of applause from the passengers!!
I spoke with the guy a few weeks later. He told me " You will never get in trouble at Southwest for helping a customer" Company has his back, and he is going to do what it takes.
Extraordinary events require extraordinary measures. Most airlines are simply not interested.
An old sad story. In 30 plus years of flying as SLF I have only once meet an airline that , top to bottom, treats the customers as , well customers, rather than inconvenient barnacles to be kept in the dark. That is Southwest
Why there are not more riots and hostage events in airports amazes me. Given the way airlines treat their customers, frankly they deserve to have a few well roasted managers. (Not that you'll ever, ever find a real manager on a concourse when the stuff hits the fan. Leave that to the lowly, ill paid and ill informed CSR's)
The storm was predicted well in advance, this was not a meteor strike or tsunami or good forbid a crash. It was a winter storm that happens in Canada regularly. No excuses, everyone saw it coming.
There are dozens of pro active measures all the airlines could have taken to alleviate the stress on the system and their customers and clearly very little was done. The bottom line is the airlines have your money. You have no real choice in who you fly and they have absolutely no cost associated with you standing in line for hours, so they will let you stand in line. No skin of their nose.
In contrast I was recently on a SWA flight, loaded and ready for pushback. A windshield heater when tech and the gate agent in charge - and he was in charge, gave us the news. Plane was tech, they were looking at alternates and some people might miss connections.
He delivered the news so well, making it clear he cared and was going to bust his hump for all of us. He got a round of applause from the passengers!!
I spoke with the guy a few weeks later. He told me " You will never get in trouble at Southwest for helping a customer" Company has his back, and he is going to do what it takes.
Extraordinary events require extraordinary measures. Most airlines are simply not interested.
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As for your dismisal of covering surfaces during ZR
Enjoy the mother land. One flake of snow at Heathrow, as you well know and you will be absolutely gushing about the GTAA. Hope the locals treat you OK.
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To be fair, while I had to queue for two or three hours after my Toronto flight was cancelled in the bad weather last week, Air Canada got me out in the first available seat heading West, and home the next day after putting me up in a hotel for the night. Compared to some other passengers I met at the airport, some of whom had been told they couldn't even expect to get a flight that week, that was great service.
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Married a Canuck, Mother Land? Actually my father was Irish, flew in the RFC in WW1, then got no thanks from the Brits after all the shooting finished as he was on the "other side" of the Irish troubles, all seems so bloody futile now.{sorry for the thread drift}
