New ULCC in Western Canada ?
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New ULCC in Western Canada ?
There seems to be potentially a new entrant in the Western Canadian marketplace, Canada Jetlines (dba "Jetlines"):
Canada Jetlines: Ultra-low cost carrier being proposed for Western Canada | Financial Post
The concept of a minimalist, western-based carrier, starting with a very small fleet and with tight cost control, seems eerily reminiscent of WestJet's start. On the Avcanada site, there already has been some comment that this is merely a stalking horse to beat WS's pilots into accepting a harsh contract settlement.
Not sure there is sufficient traffic in Western Canada to support another carrier, although if fares are as low as indicated, this might generate a market.
Opinions ?
Canada Jetlines: Ultra-low cost carrier being proposed for Western Canada | Financial Post
The concept of a minimalist, western-based carrier, starting with a very small fleet and with tight cost control, seems eerily reminiscent of WestJet's start. On the Avcanada site, there already has been some comment that this is merely a stalking horse to beat WS's pilots into accepting a harsh contract settlement.
Not sure there is sufficient traffic in Western Canada to support another carrier, although if fares are as low as indicated, this might generate a market.
Opinions ?
Another low cost carrier!
F?!k that... I'm so fed up with these cheap operators that keep the flight crews and indeed all their employees in the poor house.
You'll probably make more money driving a bus in Toronto or Montreal than a captain on a B737 or similar equipment... Just crazy and it should not be that way.
You'll probably make more money driving a bus in Toronto or Montreal than a captain on a B737 or similar equipment... Just crazy and it should not be that way.
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I have said the same in another thread.
These carriers will always attract the destitute or the desperate, when did aviation attract "burger world" wages....more importantly why does anyone sell their soul to go to these operators? Is it to get that great job in the ME? I can write pages about why its better to stay at home.
C'mon Canadian Pilots, grow a pair and fight for your future...we need a unified collective pilot force in Canada to move forward....not this disaster which exists today...management laughs at weakness and we continue to play right into it....
Can you say..."would you like to supersize those fries"?
It might just be a question on the ATPL sooner than later.
These carriers will always attract the destitute or the desperate, when did aviation attract "burger world" wages....more importantly why does anyone sell their soul to go to these operators? Is it to get that great job in the ME? I can write pages about why its better to stay at home.
C'mon Canadian Pilots, grow a pair and fight for your future...we need a unified collective pilot force in Canada to move forward....not this disaster which exists today...management laughs at weakness and we continue to play right into it....
Can you say..."would you like to supersize those fries"?
It might just be a question on the ATPL sooner than later.
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Can you provide a link? Or a reputable source? Certainly I'm not suggesting any level, as it seems there isn't a published scale! I have no dog in this fight but curious to know what it might be. I was part of a start up years back and I certainly didn't see the "desperate" and what other types you seem to think will populate this project. What I did see were pilots and others who were keen to pay bills, get a meaningful level of employment and contribute to the company that hired them. What seems to be your problem with that type of employee? I was proud to work with them and not once did any of them turn out to be any less than professional or less talented than any other pilot. They all have tens of thousands of hours in heavy jets with worldwide experience and I was privileged to be associated with them. I'm pretty sure your sweeping statement comes from your lack of knowledge of what it actually takes to start new carrier. Come back when you can debate with decent proof that you know what you're actually talking about.
Last edited by Left Coaster; 30th Nov 2013 at 07:43.
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Lefty, here is a sample of pay scales for TTC drivers and F/Os at a LCC located at CYTZ, TTC driver, first year, no overtime factored in $57,600, plus sick pay, overtime when valid and vacation pay, Q400 F/O $41, 600, almost no benifits, very small per diems.I have a stack of CVs on my desk from pilots offering to fly for much less than we pay our staff, yes, the "race to the bottom" will only get worse given this attitude, my advice, get a real job and fly for fun untill the pilot population wakes up to reality!
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Hi Clunk,
Not arguing pay rates, I can't…no one will post them. Just want to see what this new start up is proposing. The start up I was with wasn't Low Cost, and the agreed pay scale was equal to any other at the then current rates of pay for the type utilized. There is a simple solution to combat the people who offer to work cheap…don't hire em! I didn't! Cheers
GRK
Not arguing pay rates, I can't…no one will post them. Just want to see what this new start up is proposing. The start up I was with wasn't Low Cost, and the agreed pay scale was equal to any other at the then current rates of pay for the type utilized. There is a simple solution to combat the people who offer to work cheap…don't hire em! I didn't! Cheers
GRK
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Lefty, good on you, I to simply dump their CVs {Often deserving of the Pulitzer prize for fiction by the way} into file 13 and use them to start the wood stove. On the subject of pay, if you get to CYTZ any time just ask those behind the various counters how much the pilots are paid, you will most likely get a sychronised chant from all of those answering,{no doubt rehearsed} of "Industry Standard!", It was hard not to laugh out loud hearing this a few months back,The good news for these poor buggers is that there are many of- shore Q400 jobs comming up which pay very well!
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Anyone know who's heading up the flight operations team at Jetlines?
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I really d ont understand what s happening in Canada about the working condition.
Pilot flying B737 , e170/190, captain for 80000 a year.
This is the same salary that a Quebecair, or Nordair captain were earning in 1985
With inflation this is a lot less. And on top of that no pension, nothing
If you compare with Australia which is a similar country, low cost B737 like Virgin are making 200000 to 250000 a year
Something wrong in Canada since the ticket are almost the same price
Pilot flying B737 , e170/190, captain for 80000 a year.
This is the same salary that a Quebecair, or Nordair captain were earning in 1985
With inflation this is a lot less. And on top of that no pension, nothing
If you compare with Australia which is a similar country, low cost B737 like Virgin are making 200000 to 250000 a year
Something wrong in Canada since the ticket are almost the same price
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Simple....
There is no collective pilot union in Canada. Pilots in Canada will sell out their own to advance themselves and its been a problem for years and years. In the process, they show their employers their true character and the employers rightfully take advantage for their own benefit.
THE PROBLEM: Pilots think they are smart but have little regard for the mess they are creating for the future generations. They all want to fly that "next bigger" airplane and sell out to do so. Eventually reality sets in and they realize that every commercial airplane has a cockpit with a minimum of two seat and a set of dials or screens in front of each. Now they realize that higher-faster-longer isn't always BETTER, they also realize that they can't feed a family and pay the mortgage on 75K/YR. The employers keep the rates low until they can't attract pilots with the qualifications so they cry to the transport minister who then convinces the government to allow foreign workers to fill the gap. What is missed is that 75K CDN makes a lot of Zloty or Indian Rupees and these guys ship that money home and live like kings. No one considers the impact of shipping jobs and cash out of country....until of course it affect themselves.
When there is no national unity there is no unified fight, the employers laugh as they shoot the proverbial "fish in a barrel".
Changes will be slow but a step in the right direction would include joining the College of Professional Pilots of Canada and get involved with getting back what others have foolishly given away.
There is no collective pilot union in Canada. Pilots in Canada will sell out their own to advance themselves and its been a problem for years and years. In the process, they show their employers their true character and the employers rightfully take advantage for their own benefit.
THE PROBLEM: Pilots think they are smart but have little regard for the mess they are creating for the future generations. They all want to fly that "next bigger" airplane and sell out to do so. Eventually reality sets in and they realize that every commercial airplane has a cockpit with a minimum of two seat and a set of dials or screens in front of each. Now they realize that higher-faster-longer isn't always BETTER, they also realize that they can't feed a family and pay the mortgage on 75K/YR. The employers keep the rates low until they can't attract pilots with the qualifications so they cry to the transport minister who then convinces the government to allow foreign workers to fill the gap. What is missed is that 75K CDN makes a lot of Zloty or Indian Rupees and these guys ship that money home and live like kings. No one considers the impact of shipping jobs and cash out of country....until of course it affect themselves.
When there is no national unity there is no unified fight, the employers laugh as they shoot the proverbial "fish in a barrel".
Changes will be slow but a step in the right direction would include joining the College of Professional Pilots of Canada and get involved with getting back what others have foolishly given away.
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Well said Outlaw, one only has to look at the presures from the "bean counters" to have the industry promote such things as the "Multi Crew Licence" in an attempt to not only provide pilots {if you can call graduates of such a system "pilots} at low cost, but in spite of the demostrated lack of basic flying skills , {a quick look at some recent crashes will show the results when such "pilots" are unable to manage the most elementery piloting tasks when denied the use of automation} we have the regulatory bodies promoting such methods of putting backsides in flight decks, indeed the main advocate of this in Canada recently moved from Transport to ICAO so he can be responsible for even greater disasters! From a financial perspective this allows the industry to pay minimum wages to these products of a flawed system, thier "licence" restrictions make them little more than indentured labour! Add to this such things as the Ontario Government interfearing in flight training, causing many to simply close up shop, thus leaving the field open for more second rate operators to crank out folk willing to work for wages that quite frankly my generation would not have bothered getting out of bed for! Add to this our government allowing at least one operator to hire crews from overseas who will work for these low wages. {see the article in the Jan issue of SKIES magazine, and read the statements from Mr Williams of Sunwing}The good news is that more pilots are going of- shore as soon as they have enough experience to satisfy the requirments to be hired by other countries carriers.The bad news is that this will leave Canada short of crews in a few years.Add to this mix a generation who just dont seem to be willing to organise themselves into hard bargining units, a Minister of transport who thinks her job is to regulate pay scales, {she might want to start with MPs!}and a public who dont understand that our industry is no longer attracting the best and brightest , this given time will result in a further decay in the industry and the further decline in in working conditions,, witness the decline in major MROs in Canada, the work now going to out of country outfits that you wouldnt let fix your car, let alone your aircraft. Well, thats enough good news for today,but I may return and see what kind of responses come in, Regards, Clunck.
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Clunkdriver,
You are talking about Sunwing and the foreign crews working for low wages, where did you get that info?
I can tell you that Sunwing is one of the best paying airline here in Canada, foreign pilots get a very good salary as well, you would be very surprised!
First year all included is about 90k for an FO, and some Capt get way more that 200k per year...no one is complaining about the pay, try to talk to some pilots at Sunwing....and stop trolling...
I have lots of friends working as Captain in China and Dubai, they work a lot more than what we do here and they all regret their move! They get tax free salary but their personal life is a total disaster...
You are talking about Sunwing and the foreign crews working for low wages, where did you get that info?
I can tell you that Sunwing is one of the best paying airline here in Canada, foreign pilots get a very good salary as well, you would be very surprised!
First year all included is about 90k for an FO, and some Capt get way more that 200k per year...no one is complaining about the pay, try to talk to some pilots at Sunwing....and stop trolling...
I have lots of friends working as Captain in China and Dubai, they work a lot more than what we do here and they all regret their move! They get tax free salary but their personal life is a total disaster...
Last edited by ACP; 9th Dec 2013 at 03:52.
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ACP,your posts go from whining about having paid for a T/R and not going to the right seat of a 320, to getting into the right seat of a King Air { in the USA no T/R required} to now becoming a cheer leader for the very type of employer you bitch about in your previous posts. Forgive me if I totally ignore your ramblings, you sir are part of the problem in the industry!
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I can tell you that Sunwing is one of the best paying airline here in Canada, foreign pilots get a very good salary as well, you would be very surprised!
First year all included is about 90k for an FO, and some Capt get way more that 200k per year...no one is complaining about the pay, try to talk to some pilots at Sunwing....and stop trolling...
I have lots of friends working as Captain in China and Dubai, they work a lot more than what we do here and they all regret their move! They get tax free salary but their personal life is a total disaster...
[/I]
ACP...
There should be NO reason to bring ANY foreign pilots to Canada if the conditions are as good as you say. As I said before their pay converted to Zloty or Indian Rupees goes a long way in their respective country's. I don't live in the Canadian bubble, but I do think its high time to defend and fight for the industry in Canada instead of riding the "Wal-Mart" solution to the bottom.
I have friends working for (and have worked for) Sunwing and the pay is NOT what you posted...if it was then me and about 200 Canadian expat pilots (those who would NOT contribute to the "race to the bottom")would be there in time frame measured in micro seconds. You might be able to get to 140K if you worked 100 hours per month and lived in a tent while based overseas for 6 months...however those earnings would be moot when you factor the loss of your marriage for the same reasons.
I also know a hell of a lot of people who live in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, China and Korea and I'm here to state for the record that yes, there are a few who regret the move however the vast majority (who don't fly the A330 and A320 fleet) are pretty happy that they are on this side of the world NOT drowning in taxation or working for slave labour wages. Unless you are single and live in your parents house, 75K won't cover the budget for a family.
You would do well to realize that 75K is what Dash-8 Captains got in the late 1980's....about 25-30 years ago...Now the same pay for a EMB 175 Captain or a Q400 Captain 30 years later?
First year all included is about 90k for an FO, and some Capt get way more that 200k per year...no one is complaining about the pay, try to talk to some pilots at Sunwing....and stop trolling...
I have lots of friends working as Captain in China and Dubai, they work a lot more than what we do here and they all regret their move! They get tax free salary but their personal life is a total disaster...
[/I]
ACP...
There should be NO reason to bring ANY foreign pilots to Canada if the conditions are as good as you say. As I said before their pay converted to Zloty or Indian Rupees goes a long way in their respective country's. I don't live in the Canadian bubble, but I do think its high time to defend and fight for the industry in Canada instead of riding the "Wal-Mart" solution to the bottom.
I have friends working for (and have worked for) Sunwing and the pay is NOT what you posted...if it was then me and about 200 Canadian expat pilots (those who would NOT contribute to the "race to the bottom")would be there in time frame measured in micro seconds. You might be able to get to 140K if you worked 100 hours per month and lived in a tent while based overseas for 6 months...however those earnings would be moot when you factor the loss of your marriage for the same reasons.
I also know a hell of a lot of people who live in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, China and Korea and I'm here to state for the record that yes, there are a few who regret the move however the vast majority (who don't fly the A330 and A320 fleet) are pretty happy that they are on this side of the world NOT drowning in taxation or working for slave labour wages. Unless you are single and live in your parents house, 75K won't cover the budget for a family.
You would do well to realize that 75K is what Dash-8 Captains got in the late 1980's....about 25-30 years ago...Now the same pay for a EMB 175 Captain or a Q400 Captain 30 years later?