Foreign pilots as temporary workers for Airlines in Canada
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Foreign pilots as temporary workers for Airlines in Canada
I have, for a few weeks now, engaged in a private campaign to fight the abusive use by Sunwing and Canjet of foreign pilots as Temporary workers in Canada. I wrote letters to the Minister of Immigration, Jason Kenney, to the Human Resources, Skills and Development Canada Minister, Diane Finley, to the Transport Canada Minister, Mr Denis Lebel, to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and finally to the Canadian Transportation Agency.
I have discovered that many others, including the two largest pilot Unions in Canada, ALPA and ACPA, have for years attempted to address this problem, which is getting worse every year, but with very little success. The various government agencies they wrote to or met with, have mostly lent a deaf ear to their complaints.
Sunwing and Canjet cater to travelers flying to sun destinations, a market which mostly exists between late December and April, and the rest of the year to a lessor degree. They have small year round fleets (about 8 and 5 aircraft respectively) which they more than double with short term leases for the high season. This past winter, Sunwing had approx 21 aircraft while Canjet operated around 13 aircraft.
To crew these extra jets during the short winter season, they hire short term temporary pilots, which is fine. But instead of finding a method that would allow them to hire short term pilots in Canada, they outsource these jobs to pilots from other countries.
One method to hire short term foreign pilots that is used by Sunwing is acceptable in my view, if it is done correctly and according to the existing regulations. It's the reciprocity method. That allows for x number of foreign pilots to come to work in Canada for Sunwing during its high season, in the winter, if in exchange, a similar number of Sunwing pilots go work overseas during Sunwing's low season, the summer, which happens to also be the high season in Europe. That method would be acceptable if the number of foreign pilots coming to work in Canada was of the same magnitude as the number Canadian pilots going to work overseas, but it is not. Sunwing has been importing much more pilots under the reciprocity Regs as it has been exporting.
To make matters worse, the pilots who work on wet-leased aircraft do no count in this scheme, for regardless of where in the world they are flying, they are still working for their home employer, under the home employers certificate. So when Sunwing Wet-Leases a Foreign Aircraft, the pilots of the Foreign Aircraft do not need work Permits from Immigration Canada, nor do they need Foreign Licence Validations from Transport Canada. Same goes for when Sunwing sends Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-Leases. So if Sunwing imports 50 pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian Registered aircraft under the Sunwing Operating Certificate, these require Visas from Canada. Sunwing thus cannot count as reciprocal pilots, 50 Canadian pilots they send to Europe to fly Canadian registered aircraft Sunwing Wet-Leases to European carriers. These do not count. Can only be counted those Sunwing pilots that go work with European work visas for European carriers under those carriers' Operating Certificate. This is the theory anyway. It seems that no-one at Immigration Canada has been keeping tabs on how many Canadian pilots have been going to work overseas in exchange for the foreign pilots Sunwing has been bringing into Canada.
The second method Sunwing has been using to a lessor extent, but the one Canjet has mostly been using is the LMO. It is my opinion that this method has to be stopped completely. This is where the Canadian Airlines need to convince Human Ressources, and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) that there is a shortage of pilots in Canada, that they have made a reasonable effort to recruit and/or train pilots, and that despite all their best efforts that they unable to recruit or train any Canadian pilots. Once they have satisfied this condition, HRSDC isssues the Canadian Airlines an Labour Market Opinion (LMO), which is a paper authorizing CIC to provide a number of foreign pilot with a Canadian temporary work permit. The problem with this method is that to prove that there are no qualified pilots, these airlines advertise for 737NG type-rated and current pilots only. The 15,000 hour 757 captain need not apply. This logic is wrong for the simple reason that if it becomes acceptable for Sunwing and Canjet to claim that they require a type rating to hire pilots, and use the lack of one to import a foreign pilots instead, what is to prevent all other Canadian Airlines to do the same ? Nothing. Air Transat will require its applicants to be 310 or 330 rated, Air Canada will require 320, 330 Embraer 190, or B-767 or 777 ratiings and Westjet will only hire 737NG type-rated people. There are plenty of all of the above in many countries that pay much less than is paid in Canada and who will gladly leave their countries to come in work in Canada. So do we want to open that door ? There are other arguments. One gentlemen told me he flies water bombers every summer and is laid off every winter and goes on un-employment insurance. He would be happy to have a right seat job in a 737 every winter and go back to his left seat in his water bomber every summer. But he is left on UI and a foreigner is hired instead. There are many other cases like him for Canada has more seasonal pilot jobs in the summer as it does in the winter.
Finally, these airlines have, to a lesser extent been wet-leasing foreign aircraft to augment their fleets. The pilots who come here are licensed in their home countries and are qualified under Annex 1 but do not necessarily meet Canadian standards. Yet, unlike the pilots who come in Canada under the two other schemes mentioned above, the Wet-Lease pilots do not need to be be tested in Canada. This last winter we had a case where 7 Czech Travel Service pilots who came to Canada under a temporary work permit, either failed the Canadian simulator or were so bad in their training that the instructors did not even send them to the test. They were sent home. So what Sunwing did was to Wet-Lease one B-737 from the airline these pilots worked for, and these same pilots came back to Canada at the controls of a Czech-registered Wet-Leased (which aircraft was delivered to Canada brand new from the Boeing factory with its Czech registration). This is the kind of level we may get with Wet-Leases. No Transport Canada oversight on procedures, on the pilots, on the maintenance, on the training, on the spare parts that are used etc etc.... Yet a Canadian tour operator sell tickets on these aircraft to Canadians who have no idea they are flying on a foreign operated aircraft. Oh its written somewhere on the fine print, but the travelling public has no idea......
Back in late 2009, TUI, a large European corporation which controls over 150 aircraft, bought 49% of Sunwing. TUI now provides Sunwing with a large portion of their pilots and aircraft in the winter. TUI's 737s and their pilots are in the low season in the winter. Having Sunwing use them instead of keeping them idle is a win-win situation for Sunwing and TUI, just as it make sense for Sunwing to dump its excess capacity of Pilots and aircraft on TUI in the summer . This must however be done on an equal basis as far as the pilots are concerned. If an airlines such as Sunwing wants to operate just 4 aircraft in the summer and over 20 in the winter, it must find a solution that includes Canadian pilots, not foreigners, except of course those that come to work in Canada under the one to one reciprocal agreement.
I have discovered that many others, including the two largest pilot Unions in Canada, ALPA and ACPA, have for years attempted to address this problem, which is getting worse every year, but with very little success. The various government agencies they wrote to or met with, have mostly lent a deaf ear to their complaints.
Sunwing and Canjet cater to travelers flying to sun destinations, a market which mostly exists between late December and April, and the rest of the year to a lessor degree. They have small year round fleets (about 8 and 5 aircraft respectively) which they more than double with short term leases for the high season. This past winter, Sunwing had approx 21 aircraft while Canjet operated around 13 aircraft.
To crew these extra jets during the short winter season, they hire short term temporary pilots, which is fine. But instead of finding a method that would allow them to hire short term pilots in Canada, they outsource these jobs to pilots from other countries.
One method to hire short term foreign pilots that is used by Sunwing is acceptable in my view, if it is done correctly and according to the existing regulations. It's the reciprocity method. That allows for x number of foreign pilots to come to work in Canada for Sunwing during its high season, in the winter, if in exchange, a similar number of Sunwing pilots go work overseas during Sunwing's low season, the summer, which happens to also be the high season in Europe. That method would be acceptable if the number of foreign pilots coming to work in Canada was of the same magnitude as the number Canadian pilots going to work overseas, but it is not. Sunwing has been importing much more pilots under the reciprocity Regs as it has been exporting.
To make matters worse, the pilots who work on wet-leased aircraft do no count in this scheme, for regardless of where in the world they are flying, they are still working for their home employer, under the home employers certificate. So when Sunwing Wet-Leases a Foreign Aircraft, the pilots of the Foreign Aircraft do not need work Permits from Immigration Canada, nor do they need Foreign Licence Validations from Transport Canada. Same goes for when Sunwing sends Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-Leases. So if Sunwing imports 50 pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian Registered aircraft under the Sunwing Operating Certificate, these require Visas from Canada. Sunwing thus cannot count as reciprocal pilots, 50 Canadian pilots they send to Europe to fly Canadian registered aircraft Sunwing Wet-Leases to European carriers. These do not count. Can only be counted those Sunwing pilots that go work with European work visas for European carriers under those carriers' Operating Certificate. This is the theory anyway. It seems that no-one at Immigration Canada has been keeping tabs on how many Canadian pilots have been going to work overseas in exchange for the foreign pilots Sunwing has been bringing into Canada.
The second method Sunwing has been using to a lessor extent, but the one Canjet has mostly been using is the LMO. It is my opinion that this method has to be stopped completely. This is where the Canadian Airlines need to convince Human Ressources, and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) that there is a shortage of pilots in Canada, that they have made a reasonable effort to recruit and/or train pilots, and that despite all their best efforts that they unable to recruit or train any Canadian pilots. Once they have satisfied this condition, HRSDC isssues the Canadian Airlines an Labour Market Opinion (LMO), which is a paper authorizing CIC to provide a number of foreign pilot with a Canadian temporary work permit. The problem with this method is that to prove that there are no qualified pilots, these airlines advertise for 737NG type-rated and current pilots only. The 15,000 hour 757 captain need not apply. This logic is wrong for the simple reason that if it becomes acceptable for Sunwing and Canjet to claim that they require a type rating to hire pilots, and use the lack of one to import a foreign pilots instead, what is to prevent all other Canadian Airlines to do the same ? Nothing. Air Transat will require its applicants to be 310 or 330 rated, Air Canada will require 320, 330 Embraer 190, or B-767 or 777 ratiings and Westjet will only hire 737NG type-rated people. There are plenty of all of the above in many countries that pay much less than is paid in Canada and who will gladly leave their countries to come in work in Canada. So do we want to open that door ? There are other arguments. One gentlemen told me he flies water bombers every summer and is laid off every winter and goes on un-employment insurance. He would be happy to have a right seat job in a 737 every winter and go back to his left seat in his water bomber every summer. But he is left on UI and a foreigner is hired instead. There are many other cases like him for Canada has more seasonal pilot jobs in the summer as it does in the winter.
Finally, these airlines have, to a lesser extent been wet-leasing foreign aircraft to augment their fleets. The pilots who come here are licensed in their home countries and are qualified under Annex 1 but do not necessarily meet Canadian standards. Yet, unlike the pilots who come in Canada under the two other schemes mentioned above, the Wet-Lease pilots do not need to be be tested in Canada. This last winter we had a case where 7 Czech Travel Service pilots who came to Canada under a temporary work permit, either failed the Canadian simulator or were so bad in their training that the instructors did not even send them to the test. They were sent home. So what Sunwing did was to Wet-Lease one B-737 from the airline these pilots worked for, and these same pilots came back to Canada at the controls of a Czech-registered Wet-Leased (which aircraft was delivered to Canada brand new from the Boeing factory with its Czech registration). This is the kind of level we may get with Wet-Leases. No Transport Canada oversight on procedures, on the pilots, on the maintenance, on the training, on the spare parts that are used etc etc.... Yet a Canadian tour operator sell tickets on these aircraft to Canadians who have no idea they are flying on a foreign operated aircraft. Oh its written somewhere on the fine print, but the travelling public has no idea......
Back in late 2009, TUI, a large European corporation which controls over 150 aircraft, bought 49% of Sunwing. TUI now provides Sunwing with a large portion of their pilots and aircraft in the winter. TUI's 737s and their pilots are in the low season in the winter. Having Sunwing use them instead of keeping them idle is a win-win situation for Sunwing and TUI, just as it make sense for Sunwing to dump its excess capacity of Pilots and aircraft on TUI in the summer . This must however be done on an equal basis as far as the pilots are concerned. If an airlines such as Sunwing wants to operate just 4 aircraft in the summer and over 20 in the winter, it must find a solution that includes Canadian pilots, not foreigners, except of course those that come to work in Canada under the one to one reciprocal agreement.
Last edited by Montrealguy; 1st Jun 2012 at 13:04.
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I'm sure the Government of Canada takes a more wider view of the problem (than your very limited view)
If these airlines had to curtail their operations think of the loss in tax revenue and employment of other members of staff (aside from pilot) that would result.
We live in a global world, we don't need 3rd world protectionism from a 1st world country.
If these airlines had to curtail their operations think of the loss in tax revenue and employment of other members of staff (aside from pilot) that would result.
We live in a global world, we don't need 3rd world protectionism from a 1st world country.
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PT6,
regardless of where the pilots are coming from, the other staffers would have jobs and pay tax; foreign pilots don't while Canadian pilots would. Why should Canada be the only "first world country" to let all foreign entities in? With no chance for Canadians to fly in Euroland? If it is a two way street it's fine by me, but right now it's a one-way shaft. Canadian passengers don't have more value for money than 5 years ago, the gov gets less tax revenue to pay for services and needs to support unemployed pilots, etc... The winners are TUI and there european pilots.
regardless of where the pilots are coming from, the other staffers would have jobs and pay tax; foreign pilots don't while Canadian pilots would. Why should Canada be the only "first world country" to let all foreign entities in? With no chance for Canadians to fly in Euroland? If it is a two way street it's fine by me, but right now it's a one-way shaft. Canadian passengers don't have more value for money than 5 years ago, the gov gets less tax revenue to pay for services and needs to support unemployed pilots, etc... The winners are TUI and there european pilots.
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Canadian pilots can and do fly in Europe.
As you know some come across to fly in Europe as part of the agreement, the reason they are not more of them is because Sunwing can't spare them.. So the problem is on the Canadian side.
Many of the other EU airlines have or had expat pilots flying for them for various lengths of time.
The ground staff and cabin staff would not be employed without the European pilots, as Sunwing would have to close or scale back its operations.
The idea that you can have a Canadian guy just flying for the season then going back to firefighting is pretty weak.. You need a current and type rated guy who is flying year round.
Sunwing can't keep these guys on the books year round, so we have the pilot swap or pilot loan situation.
As you know some come across to fly in Europe as part of the agreement, the reason they are not more of them is because Sunwing can't spare them.. So the problem is on the Canadian side.
Many of the other EU airlines have or had expat pilots flying for them for various lengths of time.
The ground staff and cabin staff would not be employed without the European pilots, as Sunwing would have to close or scale back its operations.
The idea that you can have a Canadian guy just flying for the season then going back to firefighting is pretty weak.. You need a current and type rated guy who is flying year round.
Sunwing can't keep these guys on the books year round, so we have the pilot swap or pilot loan situation.
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There is a point that you made Montrealguy, that I would like to discuss with you.
Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?
It is law, as far as I know, all around the world that you need to hold the correct licence to operate an aircraft that is registered in any foreign state.
If these unemployed Canadian pilots had JAA licence's, then I could understand you being upset with them not being employed on wet leased aircraft. But how else are they going to crew them?
Those aircraft have to go back to Europe. Who is going to fly them when the Canadian pilots go back to their other seasonal jobs?
There are Canadian operators that are working all around the world in foreign states, operating on Canadian registered aircraft. Could you not argue that those companies are taking jobs from local pilots. And with no chance of reciprocity.
I'm not just talking about middle of Africa. I have seen Canadian companies working in Norway.
Also, before you harp on about the standards of flying in Canada, I know for a fact after now obtaining my 5th licence, that the Canadian standards of test are not as high or as difficult as other countries. Should those countries be worried about Canadian pilots flying aircraft in their country?
(And no, I am not saying Canadians are poor pilots, at all. I very much enjoy working with them.)
Also, did mentioned foreign crew aircraft crash?
Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?
It is law, as far as I know, all around the world that you need to hold the correct licence to operate an aircraft that is registered in any foreign state.
If these unemployed Canadian pilots had JAA licence's, then I could understand you being upset with them not being employed on wet leased aircraft. But how else are they going to crew them?
Those aircraft have to go back to Europe. Who is going to fly them when the Canadian pilots go back to their other seasonal jobs?
There are Canadian operators that are working all around the world in foreign states, operating on Canadian registered aircraft. Could you not argue that those companies are taking jobs from local pilots. And with no chance of reciprocity.
I'm not just talking about middle of Africa. I have seen Canadian companies working in Norway.
Also, before you harp on about the standards of flying in Canada, I know for a fact after now obtaining my 5th licence, that the Canadian standards of test are not as high or as difficult as other countries. Should those countries be worried about Canadian pilots flying aircraft in their country?
(And no, I am not saying Canadians are poor pilots, at all. I very much enjoy working with them.)
Also, did mentioned foreign crew aircraft crash?
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PT6, guys flying tankers in summer/jets in winter has been done before, what's so special about the 737ng that a 200hr pilot can fly it but not a seasonned aviator?
If there were no foreign pilots, you are right, Sunwing would be smaller but some other outfit would take the slack (or would not have folded in the first place) and employ the other staff (like Sunwing filled the void from Sky Service). It is a zero sum game (all right, say 3% growth per year). Don't forget, the SSV flying did not vanished, it was transfered to a parent company of TUI (Sunwing).
The only winner is TUI.
If there were no foreign pilots, you are right, Sunwing would be smaller but some other outfit would take the slack (or would not have folded in the first place) and employ the other staff (like Sunwing filled the void from Sky Service). It is a zero sum game (all right, say 3% growth per year). Don't forget, the SSV flying did not vanished, it was transfered to a parent company of TUI (Sunwing).
The only winner is TUI.
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The issue is currency, not hours.
It is not sensible to keep switching between two types of aircraft and two types of operations.
There are training costs to be borne in mind, not to mention there will potentially be a chance for confusion on the flight deck, or just generally not upto the same speed as one should be.
The 200 hour guy will be constantly flying the same type.
This is why many regulators do not allow flying of more than one type at a time for public transport operations.
The talk of other companies picking up the slack is nothing more than pie in the sky.. If there was that much slack then TUI would leave aircraft in Canada year round and make money from them.... There is not sufficient demand, this is why aircraft and crew move back and further across the Atlantic.
Again, there are Canadians flying everywhere... Make sure your campaign does not harm your brothers!
It is not sensible to keep switching between two types of aircraft and two types of operations.
There are training costs to be borne in mind, not to mention there will potentially be a chance for confusion on the flight deck, or just generally not upto the same speed as one should be.
The 200 hour guy will be constantly flying the same type.
This is why many regulators do not allow flying of more than one type at a time for public transport operations.
The talk of other companies picking up the slack is nothing more than pie in the sky.. If there was that much slack then TUI would leave aircraft in Canada year round and make money from them.... There is not sufficient demand, this is why aircraft and crew move back and further across the Atlantic.
Again, there are Canadians flying everywhere... Make sure your campaign does not harm your brothers!
Last edited by PT6A; 2nd Jun 2012 at 11:01.
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Dual types is fine with TC, done by many.
Canadians flying abroad fill in where there are not enough pilots(ME, China, etc) and will be out the day their local replacement is trained (happened before, will happened again). This is a different issue. I am one working abroad and can't get back home because TUI prefers its pilots to Canadians.
As for the training cost, that is the cost of doing business. In Sunwing's case, one ground school and 2 sim sessions would be enough to re qualify the guys every fall. It is actually chearper than 4 sims per year.
And you said that Sunwing "can't spare any", that means they are short, no?
If they would have 100 Euro pilots coming over for the winter and and 100 Canadians going over for the summer, there would be none of this. Why can't they do that?
Canadians flying abroad fill in where there are not enough pilots(ME, China, etc) and will be out the day their local replacement is trained (happened before, will happened again). This is a different issue. I am one working abroad and can't get back home because TUI prefers its pilots to Canadians.
As for the training cost, that is the cost of doing business. In Sunwing's case, one ground school and 2 sim sessions would be enough to re qualify the guys every fall. It is actually chearper than 4 sims per year.
And you said that Sunwing "can't spare any", that means they are short, no?
If they would have 100 Euro pilots coming over for the winter and and 100 Canadians going over for the summer, there would be none of this. Why can't they do that?
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It might be legally ok... But mere legal compliance is not enough to ensure system safety. TC is hardly a trend setter when it comes to safety... Just look at the FDTL system and the SMS systems which are two giant failures. (SMS being a good idea, but not the Canadian way where they got rid of all the inspectors)
Sunwing are not short of pilots they are correctly crewed for their operation, they need extra pilots for a period of time - it is not sensible from a buisness point of view to employee these pilots year round.
It is a much better idea to contract the services of the required number of pilots from a sister company.
Remember Sunwing is a buisness a buisness is there to make money. Their duty is to provide the best possible return on investment for their shareholders.
You won't win this fight because it has no real basis, that's why each and every time this argument has been raised before it has resulted in..... Nothing, nada, zero zilch!
Sunwing are not short of pilots they are correctly crewed for their operation, they need extra pilots for a period of time - it is not sensible from a buisness point of view to employee these pilots year round.
It is a much better idea to contract the services of the required number of pilots from a sister company.
Remember Sunwing is a buisness a buisness is there to make money. Their duty is to provide the best possible return on investment for their shareholders.
You won't win this fight because it has no real basis, that's why each and every time this argument has been raised before it has resulted in..... Nothing, nada, zero zilch!
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Originally Posted by About lilflyboy262...2
There is a point that you made Montrealguy, that I would like to discuss with you.
Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?
Are you saying that they should not be wet leasing aircraft for sunwing?
Sunwing mostly dry-leases aircraft from Europe. These are re-registered in Canada while they are operated by Sunwing under the Sunwing Certificate. Foreign pilots who come to fly these aircraft need to have their foreign licences validated by Transport Canada and they need temporary work visas from Immigration Canada. The dry leased aircraft are flown by both the temporary foreign crews and by the regular Canadian pilots Sunwing employs full time.
Sunwing also Wet-Leases aircraft from Europe, to a lessor degree. These aircraft maintain their foreign registration while flying for Sunwing. They are flown exclusively by the pilots employed by the airline which leased the aircraft to Sunwing.
In the summer, Sunwing also Wet-Leases some of its aircraft to Europe. These are operated in Europe, under the Canadian Registration and are flown exclusively by Canadian Sunwing pilots. Those pilots do not need European Visas, nor do they need European Licence Vallidations. In addition to those pilots who go fly the Sunwing Wet-Leased aircraft in Europe, Sunwing has sent additional pilots who go fly to Europe for European airlines, under European Operating Certificates. Those pilots need European Work Visas and European Licence Validations.
What I was stating is that under the Immigration reciprocal agreement where x number of foreign pilots are allowed to work in Canada in exchange the same number of Canadian pilots working in Europe, it only concerns those Foreign and Canadian pilots requiring Work Visas and Licence Validations. If Sunwing brings in 50 foreign pilots to work Canadian Registered aircraft with Canadian work visas, it cannot count as reciprocal pilots those Canadian pilots who go work in Europe at the controls of Wet-Leased Sunwing aircraft and who do not require European visas.
Pilots of wet-leased aircraft are one thing, those requiring Visas are another and the two groups cannot be mixed.
If the Wet-leased pilots sent to Europe by Sunwing are to be counted in the reciprocal agreement, then all foreign pilots who come to work for Sunwing under Wet-Leases (like the 767 crews in the summer) should also count.
As far as pilot standards, we know they vary from one country to another. Theoretically, pilots from all ICAO-member countries conform to Annex 1, which is sufficient to be allowed to fly an aircraft wet-leased to a Canadian airline, but we all know that in practice, this is not true. There were recent reports of hundreds of Indian pilots paying bribes to obtain their pilots licences and another news report indicated that and investigation follwing the crash of an Emb-190 in China had revealed that over 200 pilots working with that Chinese airline had falsified their logbooks with bogus hours in order to land their jobs. Same goes for Aircraft certification. I recently heard of an African Registered L-1011 that was doing charters in Iraq a few years ago. It's paperwork indicated it had been modified for operating at a higher gross weight. When Inspected by a colleague of mine who was a very experienced L-1011 mechanic and flight engineer, he quickly noticed that the modification had been done on paper only. The aircraft flew at high gross weight with the engines for the lower gross weight aircraft, totally illegally. The crews were European and this aircraft did charters to and from Europe......
The problem with wet-leasing is that you take the airline you wet-lease at face value and that your Ministry of Transport has no oversight over the foreign carrier.
That seven Czech Travel Service pilots that did not pass the Canadian Simulator PPC should have rung out alarm bells at Transport Canada, especially when Sunwing turned around and Wet-Leased an aircraft from that same company. But it did not. What they did was perfectly legal and Transport Canada had no business overseeing the pilots who were at the controls of the Wet-Leased aircraft, just like they would have no business checking that the High Gross L-1011 had the wrong engines, had that aircraft been wet-leased in Canada. That would have been for the Civil Aviation authorities of the African Nation where it was registered to check.......
Last edited by Montrealguy; 2nd Jun 2012 at 15:04.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
You won't win this fight because it has no real basis, that's why each and every time this argument has been raised before it has resulted in..... Nothing, nada, zero zilch!
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If you are suggesting that TC is not inspecting foreign aircraft that operate into Canada... then that is most worrying.
They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.
Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.
They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.
Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
it is not sensible from a buisness point of view to employee these pilots year round.
There are in Canada 60 CL-214 and CL-415, 2 PBY Cansos, 12 Gruman Turbo Firecats, others with pistons, 2 Martin Mars and 3 Lockheed Electras, about a dozen CV-580s, a couple DC-4s, (close to 100 large aircraft in all), all full time water bombers, most of whose pilots have seasonal summer-only jobs.
From a purely business point of view, does it make sense for Canada to keep all these pilots on UI every winter and hire foreigners who pay no taxes in Canada instead ?
These past years I have flown as captain in Airbus 310 and 330 aircraft with young first officers who had just arrived from a Beech 1900, a Metroliner, or even a King Air and they all did fine.
Are you claiming that a high time guy who was flying captain on a Lockheed Electra, a 4 engine turbine aircraft of 51 tonnes, cannot fly right-seat in a 79 tonne B-737-800 ?
At Air Transat, we used to Dry-Lease B737 and Airbus 320 from Europe for the winter. Every fall, we would draw crews from our B-757s, our A-330s and our L-1011s to put them on the A320 or B-737, and in the spring they would be sent back to their regular aircraft. These pilots went back and forth between two aircraft twice a year. No problems, no incidents......
Last edited by Montrealguy; 2nd Jun 2012 at 16:27.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
If you are suggesting that TC is not inspecting foreign aircraft that operate into Canada... then that is most worrying.
They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.
Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.
They should be checking these aircraft comply with ICAO minimum standards, otherwise they are not doing their duty.
Before you ask, yep we in Europe do that... We created SAFA for just that reason.
TC will ask to see the foreign carrier's aircraft documentation and make sure it is compliant. It will not check to see if the foreign aircraft has the wrong engines or has been repaired by non-licensed mechanics with bogus parts from China........ Of course if something is obvious like a leak or a bald tire, they can and will intervene.......
But you know all that. That last comment was nothing but trolling to send the thread on a tangent.
Stick to subject at hand please or I will no longer reply........
Last edited by Montrealguy; 2nd Jun 2012 at 16:17.
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Talking to the water bomber crews in Sudbury this year, from what I heard the MNR pays them a year long salary?
Or is that just an Ontario thing?
You also didn't answer my previous question.
Or is that just an Ontario thing?
You also didn't answer my previous question.
Last edited by lilflyboy262...2; 2nd Jun 2012 at 17:23.
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I think it is very much on point... There has been an allegation that TC is not performing it's duties as the regulator, that is a very serious allegation to make.
Further, you now go on again to say they are not conducting proper checks.
Are you saying they are issuing TC ATPL's or Validations without checking with the home authority?
When TC gave me my ATPL they did so on the basis of an email from my CAA, you seem to indicate something different is now happening?
Further, you now go on again to say they are not conducting proper checks.
Are you saying they are issuing TC ATPL's or Validations without checking with the home authority?
When TC gave me my ATPL they did so on the basis of an email from my CAA, you seem to indicate something different is now happening?
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2
Talking to the water bomber crews in Sudbury this year, from what I heard the MNR pays them a year long salary?
Or is that just an Ontario thing?
You also didn't answer my previous question.
Or is that just an Ontario thing?
You also didn't answer my previous question.
As for the question I did not answer, your post contains 5 question marks. Be more specific please, as I stated earlier, I am not certain I understood you.
Last edited by Montrealguy; 2nd Jun 2012 at 18:09.
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Originally Posted by PT6A
When TC gave me my ATPL they did so on the basis of an email from my CAA, you seem to indicate something different is now happening?
A troll : In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
Last edited by Montrealguy; 2nd Jun 2012 at 18:22.
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So if they get a full time salary..... Then they should not be flying for another operator. As they would not be available to their primary employer (the Canadian tax payer!)
It is not the fault of TUI if the salary of a water bomber is not high enough to prevent them from needing to fly another aircraft.
Why not focus on improving the terms and conditions of the water bomber pilots, then you can attract dedicated pilots who wish to perform that vital role..... Instead of waiting and wanting for a shot at the NG.
We can fix the shortage of pilots within Sunwing at no cost to the airline, this again benefits Canadian buisness and Canada as a whole.
It is not the fault of TUI if the salary of a water bomber is not high enough to prevent them from needing to fly another aircraft.
Why not focus on improving the terms and conditions of the water bomber pilots, then you can attract dedicated pilots who wish to perform that vital role..... Instead of waiting and wanting for a shot at the NG.
We can fix the shortage of pilots within Sunwing at no cost to the airline, this again benefits Canadian buisness and Canada as a whole.
Last edited by PT6A; 2nd Jun 2012 at 18:24.
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Most of these guys love not working in the winter time. It gives them time to work on other things in their life. Or at least thats what they told me.
It is far removed from being on EI that's for sure!
My original question. As far as I am aware, if you are flying on say, a ZS, VH, ZK (insert other nations regos here), then you must hold that applicable states licence.
If they are bringing in aircraft from other countries, then you must hold that applicable licence to fly that aircraft.
Are you saying that they should be bringing in those aircraft, registering them in Canada, so canadian pilots can fly them, then shipping them back to europe and reregistering them there?
Think about how many months the aircraft would be grounded for each year for this to take place. How on earth would that make economic sense?
Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?
There is no reciprocal agreement here and I believe norwegian pilots are getting the short end of the stick there.
(This is only one example)
It is far removed from being on EI that's for sure!
My original question. As far as I am aware, if you are flying on say, a ZS, VH, ZK (insert other nations regos here), then you must hold that applicable states licence.
If they are bringing in aircraft from other countries, then you must hold that applicable licence to fly that aircraft.
Are you saying that they should be bringing in those aircraft, registering them in Canada, so canadian pilots can fly them, then shipping them back to europe and reregistering them there?
Think about how many months the aircraft would be grounded for each year for this to take place. How on earth would that make economic sense?
Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?
There is no reciprocal agreement here and I believe norwegian pilots are getting the short end of the stick there.
(This is only one example)