Average time working as Rampee
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Average time working as Rampee
What is the Average time pilots work as a ramp personnel before getting in the right seat in Canada. Wondering if its worth my while to go slaving it out in the cold north.
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I have no idea. I am just here to tell you that young pilots should fight against this practice; it doesn't make sense. Pilots spend lots of money to get their licenses and should be offered jobs as pilots, not baggage/ cargo handlers.
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...and operators should spend thousands of dollars on inexperienced pilots to fly complex airplanes without seeing at least some work ethic and decision making skills before putting them in the seat? In most cases we are talking about putting 200 hour pilots into the right seat of a King Air or Twin Otter.
If your only reason for disagreeing with the practice is because pilots have spent lots of money on their training, then go talk to a doctor in residency and do the comparison.
The only part of the whole practice I disagree with is paying them peanuts and working them to the bone.
Anyways, to answer your question KB1: the wait time depends on the operator, the economy and the season. Most have a wait time of 1 to 2 years, although some guys get lucky and are flying sooner. It sounds like a long time, but its worth it in the end.
There is a bit of a hiring swing going on right now - its not a boom, but operators are hiring - so get your resume out right now. Target those operators you really want to work for. At the end of the day its not all about flying and just because you may end up doing 1,000 hours a year at one operator and only 400 at does not make the first one better.
Good luck and have fun!
If your only reason for disagreeing with the practice is because pilots have spent lots of money on their training, then go talk to a doctor in residency and do the comparison.
The only part of the whole practice I disagree with is paying them peanuts and working them to the bone.
Anyways, to answer your question KB1: the wait time depends on the operator, the economy and the season. Most have a wait time of 1 to 2 years, although some guys get lucky and are flying sooner. It sounds like a long time, but its worth it in the end.
There is a bit of a hiring swing going on right now - its not a boom, but operators are hiring - so get your resume out right now. Target those operators you really want to work for. At the end of the day its not all about flying and just because you may end up doing 1,000 hours a year at one operator and only 400 at does not make the first one better.
Good luck and have fun!
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How can you compare a green doctor going through residency to a young pilot being subjected to the rigors of being a rampee? It is not just about the money. It is about the fact that operators exploit these desperate wannabes who are in a desperate situation. How in all good conscience can you condone this as a viable career path?
If a 22 year old kid can be put in command of a high performance jet in the military I see no reason that why these rookies are not cut out for the right seat of a prop. Yes, you can preach about the highest standards of training etc, but is this guy learning anything hauling bags and cleaning planes which is in any way related to his intended profession?
This is a very innovative way to abuse a section of the workforce who have spent their time and money to get that license. To perpetuate this system is sad and unacceptable. Even the thread starter has aptly quoted this career choice as 'slaving it'. The perception fits reality. If this is the only way an operator can gauge a guys work ethic and critical thinking skills, then it is best these so called operators find another job.
If a 22 year old kid can be put in command of a high performance jet in the military I see no reason that why these rookies are not cut out for the right seat of a prop. Yes, you can preach about the highest standards of training etc, but is this guy learning anything hauling bags and cleaning planes which is in any way related to his intended profession?
This is a very innovative way to abuse a section of the workforce who have spent their time and money to get that license. To perpetuate this system is sad and unacceptable. Even the thread starter has aptly quoted this career choice as 'slaving it'. The perception fits reality. If this is the only way an operator can gauge a guys work ethic and critical thinking skills, then it is best these so called operators find another job.
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You forget av8r76 that the military is putting these 200 hour pilots into positions after having between 2 and 4 years of training them on discipline, leadership, decision making, et cetera; and thats after most "wannabes" are removed through aircrew selection - both before and after they join. The military's end goal is the same as industry. 
The exploitation of the wannabes is the part I don't agree with - if you read the post you see I don't like the fact we pay them horrible wages and work them to the bone. I'd hike their pay and I'd give them what the non-pilot working their position makes if I were calling the shots; however, I cannot think of a more cost effective way of determining their suitability for the cockpit than the current system, albeit with increased wages.
If a small operator could afford simulators to do sim evals then I'd agree that we should scrap the waiting system tomorrow. But even the mid range operators cannot spend that kind of cash if all its going to be used for is hiring. They have to find another way to gauge a guys competency, and for newer pilots this is the way industry has gone.
The exploitation of the wannabes is the part I don't agree with - if you read the post you see I don't like the fact we pay them horrible wages and work them to the bone. I'd hike their pay and I'd give them what the non-pilot working their position makes if I were calling the shots; however, I cannot think of a more cost effective way of determining their suitability for the cockpit than the current system, albeit with increased wages.
If a small operator could afford simulators to do sim evals then I'd agree that we should scrap the waiting system tomorrow. But even the mid range operators cannot spend that kind of cash if all its going to be used for is hiring. They have to find another way to gauge a guys competency, and for newer pilots this is the way industry has gone.
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Thanks to all. I agree it would be nice not to go through Ramp work, but unfortunately that's the world we are in and i don't mind going through the process so long as there is a reasonable reward. Was thinking about applying to Central Mountain air with their low time Pilots program. What are your opinions or any info of their program?
Thanks
Thanks
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I did mention in my post about high standards etc, so I did not overlook the rigourous regime the military guys and gals are put through. Again, deciding whether a green bag goes over the blue one does not further a guys competency in terms of whether a particular approach might be too hairy to conduct. the two jobs have absolutely no connection whatsoever in terms of knowledge, skills and abilities.
Let's see it for what it is. Supply and demand. And this exploitation is condoned and perpetuated by all and sundry on both sides. A whole workforce has been beaten down and battered to the point that they are conditioned to believe that this is one of the primary means to break into the industry.
The irony of the CMA position is that you would actually make more working on the ramp than you would on the RHS. What a high price these operators ask us to pay to work in our chosen profession! I did show interest in this position and I could not bring myself to accepting these terms and conditions (that was of course assuming I'd get selected
).
Let's see it for what it is. Supply and demand. And this exploitation is condoned and perpetuated by all and sundry on both sides. A whole workforce has been beaten down and battered to the point that they are conditioned to believe that this is one of the primary means to break into the industry.
The irony of the CMA position is that you would actually make more working on the ramp than you would on the RHS. What a high price these operators ask us to pay to work in our chosen profession! I did show interest in this position and I could not bring myself to accepting these terms and conditions (that was of course assuming I'd get selected
).
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Our company has a similar program for it's AMT's. It was for years a priority to hire into the AMT ranks from within. 9/11 happened and there were lots of guys on the street, many chose to take a position as a handler. When the hire freeze was lifted they simply hired from within as long as you met minimum exp requirements. Needless to say many slugs made their way in and the company noticed it. I finally got my shot off the street with serious time on the airframes the company was operating.
For AC, hell if you want to throw bags to get a job go for it. Just know you will probably be respected less by your peers who really should not judge you for fighting for a job. What? You are not a Pilot until you have a yoke in your hands, is a pilot too good to perform manual labour? It is pathetic to knock a person's desire to succeed as quickly as possible in achieving his goals.
For AC, hell if you want to throw bags to get a job go for it. Just know you will probably be respected less by your peers who really should not judge you for fighting for a job. What? You are not a Pilot until you have a yoke in your hands, is a pilot too good to perform manual labour? It is pathetic to knock a person's desire to succeed as quickly as possible in achieving his goals.
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The more accurate comparison would be if the Doctor had to go become the Hospital Janitor. Kissing @ss below the lowest Orderly (aka F/A.)
Don't do it!
The sooner Pilots wake-up and tell these immoral SOB's (like Buffalo Joe) to go eff themselves - the better.
You've made a huge investment in training and education. Expect some hard work ahead, but it should be around flying Airplanes.
Not being a "boot licker" ramp rat.
Don't do it!
The sooner Pilots wake-up and tell these immoral SOB's (like Buffalo Joe) to go eff themselves - the better.
You've made a huge investment in training and education. Expect some hard work ahead, but it should be around flying Airplanes.
Not being a "boot licker" ramp rat.
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Thats exactly my point. A doctor sweeping the hospital halls will certainly raise more eyebrows than a pilot cleaning a plane. Why is that?
We have been conditioned to think that this is normal. I do not in any way denigrate the notion of manual labour or anyone who has been forced into this situation. I definitely reserve my scorn for these slave drivers who front as operators. Good and effective hiring practices should weed out the undesirables. In which other profession do we find this happening? If it is, it is merely out of choice. But in this situation, grueling road trips, endless PFO letters, and if you do get through, an excellent position on the ramp awaits you.
I would be curious to know how many guys have actually put in 1 to 2 years on the ramp and not gotten a job onto that elusive right seat with the same operator. That would give us an idea if this truly is a tool to weed out the undesirables. I reckon it's just about seniority until your number comes up. Sad if its true.
We have been conditioned to think that this is normal. I do not in any way denigrate the notion of manual labour or anyone who has been forced into this situation. I definitely reserve my scorn for these slave drivers who front as operators. Good and effective hiring practices should weed out the undesirables. In which other profession do we find this happening? If it is, it is merely out of choice. But in this situation, grueling road trips, endless PFO letters, and if you do get through, an excellent position on the ramp awaits you.
I would be curious to know how many guys have actually put in 1 to 2 years on the ramp and not gotten a job onto that elusive right seat with the same operator. That would give us an idea if this truly is a tool to weed out the undesirables. I reckon it's just about seniority until your number comes up. Sad if its true.
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So, you spend all this money and get all your fancy pilot stuff, but there are no flying jobs that you are qualified for. What now? Go work the fryer at McD's, stock shelves at the Walmart or get you foot in the door at an aviation company?
I started on the ramp while I was still working on my commercial licence. Sure, I spent nearly 2 years alternately freezing and sweating (and sometimes both) while wishing I could fly the airplanes that I looked after. But I learned almost every aspect of that company and the industry that really helped and still does to this day. Fueling, loading, cleaning, maintaining, and dispatching those aircraft gave me a huge advantage to those that came into the company from alternative routes. It helped too that I was paid better as a ramp rat than I was when I started flying for the same company when it was my time.
Will it work that way for everyone? Probably not. But I wouldn't change the way I did it for anything.
I started on the ramp while I was still working on my commercial licence. Sure, I spent nearly 2 years alternately freezing and sweating (and sometimes both) while wishing I could fly the airplanes that I looked after. But I learned almost every aspect of that company and the industry that really helped and still does to this day. Fueling, loading, cleaning, maintaining, and dispatching those aircraft gave me a huge advantage to those that came into the company from alternative routes. It helped too that I was paid better as a ramp rat than I was when I started flying for the same company when it was my time.
Will it work that way for everyone? Probably not. But I wouldn't change the way I did it for anything.
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As another former Rampy I agree 100% with Pratt X 3.
Yes it was hard work. On the other hand I got 3 PPC's out of it and did not have to pay for or sign a bond for any of them. I certainly never felt I was being exploited.
I've noticed people getting into this business today have an unbelievable sense of entitlement - the concept of working for something or earning something is completely foreign to them. They expect everything to be given to them.
Do you really want to go to a pay-to-fly system where everyone pays cash for a rating? That's the system in Europe now.
Yes it was hard work. On the other hand I got 3 PPC's out of it and did not have to pay for or sign a bond for any of them. I certainly never felt I was being exploited.
I've noticed people getting into this business today have an unbelievable sense of entitlement - the concept of working for something or earning something is completely foreign to them. They expect everything to be given to them.
Do you really want to go to a pay-to-fly system where everyone pays cash for a rating? That's the system in Europe now.
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av8r76:
Our company had a sit down with two guys earlier this year who had been with us for over a year and told that they were not going to see an airplane because they treated their situation as a given that if they just waited for "their number to come up" they would get an airplane.
Eric Janson pointed it out that new pilots feel some sort of entitlement, and this came through during their year on the ramp. So if they have that attitude on the ramp, then are they actually going to put the work into becoming a professional pilot or are they going to learn just enough to pass the ride?
Of course, not all guys have to wait a year if they show that they have the right attitude. To this point, my company just put a guy into an airplane after only spending three months on the ramp because he showed up, busted his a** and showed a commitment to learning and professionalism. The guys up the ladder obviously felt that he had shown that he could be trusted with a multi-million dollar airplane and he starts ground school next week.
You do a good job and show you are willing to work, you get a flying job quick. You show that you're not willing to put in work and that you are just "biding your time" then the company will do the same.
Again, why should a company spend thousands of dollars on your training if they can't trust that you are actually going to be professional about it? I guess the flip side is to ensure that you are going to be professional about it by making you pay for your type rating.
Our company had a sit down with two guys earlier this year who had been with us for over a year and told that they were not going to see an airplane because they treated their situation as a given that if they just waited for "their number to come up" they would get an airplane.
Eric Janson pointed it out that new pilots feel some sort of entitlement, and this came through during their year on the ramp. So if they have that attitude on the ramp, then are they actually going to put the work into becoming a professional pilot or are they going to learn just enough to pass the ride?
Of course, not all guys have to wait a year if they show that they have the right attitude. To this point, my company just put a guy into an airplane after only spending three months on the ramp because he showed up, busted his a** and showed a commitment to learning and professionalism. The guys up the ladder obviously felt that he had shown that he could be trusted with a multi-million dollar airplane and he starts ground school next week.
You do a good job and show you are willing to work, you get a flying job quick. You show that you're not willing to put in work and that you are just "biding your time" then the company will do the same.
Again, why should a company spend thousands of dollars on your training if they can't trust that you are actually going to be professional about it? I guess the flip side is to ensure that you are going to be professional about it by making you pay for your type rating.
Actually, I do tend to bring "Tim's down to the ramp, and the deice bays."always humorous that they get the reverse drive thru" I have also been grieved by some guys for having the temerity to hook up my own GPU, or throw a bag to get us on our way. Then again, I did start on the Ramp.
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I'm all for the rampie programs, though I don't necessarily agree with them. On one hand, pilots pay a lot of money earning their licenses and ratings. We come from all walks of life. Not all of us have "dreamed" of flying all of our lives. Who knows where we've come from and what we've sacrficed to get there. On the other hand, I took part in one, and it served me very well. Albeit, I spent considerably less time than the often quoted 1-2 years, but over the months I spent working on the ground, I had every opportunity to learn SOPs and aircraft systems, inside and out. Walking into a training department that demands no less, looking back, I don't feel I could have been adequately prepared. It's a very large step up, moving from a Seneca/TravelAir/Baron/Cougar to a two-crew turboprop. I'm happy I had the time I needed to prepare. And not to mention, I will never be asked to pay for a type rating.
The catch is finding the program that will "upgrade" you within a timely fashion, providing you show the work ethic, commitment and preparedness, and not let you rot on the ground until you are no longer interested in flying and the industry altogether.
My two cents. No regrets.
The catch is finding the program that will "upgrade" you within a timely fashion, providing you show the work ethic, commitment and preparedness, and not let you rot on the ground until you are no longer interested in flying and the industry altogether.
My two cents. No regrets.
