Air Transat Hiring Again!
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Fire Left, If you had been exposed to some of the standards in some of the of shore outfits Ive dealt with of late {as Chuck has} you would see things from a different perspective Im sure, even reading some of the crash investigations doesnt tell the whole horror story, belive me there are more than one set of standards out there, and now the insurance industry is starting to call the shots thank heavens! When we pay 10% of another outfits costs for more coverage on the identical airframe {thats NOT a missprint} you know how bad things are, so I dont think Chuck was "talking down" to any group, just calling them as he sees them.None of this will fix pilot pay in the short term, it will make the more competant and skilled experienced pilots to be in demand as the insurance companies apply the scews I hope.
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I know all about standards in different countries and all the factors that serve to reduce them. I'm also keenly aware of the different standards pilots exhibit within this country. Chuck talks down to pilot groups all the time as do many others, and that's what I have a problem with. The recent report on AC190 is a classic example where the float plane drivers out there are criticizing transport pilots for their lack of hand flying skill.
High altitude maneuvering is something no one but serving fighter pilots are proficient at. Even then fighter pilots would probably wrap a 320 up in a ball because it is an entirely different airplane than what they are used to.
People talk about automation in transports as if it's no more complicated than an on/off switch. Push the button and pull out the newspaper. It only highlights their own lack of knowledge.
This thread is about pay, and I fully agree that we are underpaid skilled workers and that something has to change. Throwing rocks at each other won't do that. You lit after a fellow who simply corrected a wrong assumption about the starting pay at Air Transat. What for? He was simply correcting an error, and it didn't warrant a dick measuring contest no matter what you fly.
High altitude maneuvering is something no one but serving fighter pilots are proficient at. Even then fighter pilots would probably wrap a 320 up in a ball because it is an entirely different airplane than what they are used to.
People talk about automation in transports as if it's no more complicated than an on/off switch. Push the button and pull out the newspaper. It only highlights their own lack of knowledge.
This thread is about pay, and I fully agree that we are underpaid skilled workers and that something has to change. Throwing rocks at each other won't do that. You lit after a fellow who simply corrected a wrong assumption about the starting pay at Air Transat. What for? He was simply correcting an error, and it didn't warrant a dick measuring contest no matter what you fly.
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I think the only person who "lit after" anyone is JV, he still declines to reveal his background, so its hard to decide what he is really qualified to comment on, he does however reapeat the old total nonsense about AC pensions being paid by the government and all the other crap about "training at taxpayers expense", its my experience that most who trump out these tired lines recived PFO letters from both the military and AC, thus spend a fair bit of time taking cheap shots at those who made the requied standards,{ before traing to standard came in of course!}
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Chuck talks down to pilot groups all the time as do many others, and that's what I have a problem with.
Please give some examples of me " talking down to pilot groups" where my comments were without merit.
Maybe I should just quit posting here on Pprune like I did on the Canadian forum so I don't offend the self worth of the general Canadian pilot population?
If you have a problem with me I am very easy to find so why not take it up with me in person so I can better understand your concerns, instead of bitching about me here?
I was hoping that if I left the Canadian culture and just stuck to this forum there would be less moaning from other pilots who see me as not really one of their clique.
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Please give some examples of me " talking down to pilot groups" where my comments were without merit.
There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.
There are some who are able to offer a far higher level of skills and ability to do difficult tasks and they are able to ask for and get paid a much higher rate than the cookie cutter skills limited pilots.
There are some who are able to offer a far higher level of skills and ability to do difficult tasks and they are able to ask for and get paid a much higher rate than the cookie cutter skills limited pilots.
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Let me elaborate on my statement enginefireleft and maybe you will understand the comment better.
There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.
By cookie cutter I meant they are trained to do one kind of flying on a given type of aircraft, the buzz word that describes this concept of flying is SOP's as seen in the airline world.
I am a supporter of the SOP concept and fully endorse it.
However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
It is evident by the pay scale now compared to the past that the companies who operate these machines are paying what the pilots will work for, or they would be unable to operate their airlines.
Where you came to the conclusion that these pilots deserve low pay is puzzling because that is not what I said.
You can sleep without fear of my being involved in the aviation college that is under construction in Canada because I personally do not think it is going to improve the working conditions across the board in Canada.
I may be wrong but it seems to be just another group of people who already are part of the " in " group setting up another empire.
Ohh... just one more comment about pay.
When I owned several companies in aviation I paid my employees at the top of the scale for the flying they did, but in return I expected them to be of top quality.
There are tens of thousands of airplane drivers around the world, most of them are cookie cutter qualified drivers who get paid as little as the companies can hire them for.
I am a supporter of the SOP concept and fully endorse it.
However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
It is evident by the pay scale now compared to the past that the companies who operate these machines are paying what the pilots will work for, or they would be unable to operate their airlines.
Where you came to the conclusion that these pilots deserve low pay is puzzling because that is not what I said.
I hope you aren't in charge of negotiations for the aviation college under development because your kind of help we can do without.
You can sleep without fear of my being involved in the aviation college that is under construction in Canada because I personally do not think it is going to improve the working conditions across the board in Canada.
I may be wrong but it seems to be just another group of people who already are part of the " in " group setting up another empire.
Ohh... just one more comment about pay.
When I owned several companies in aviation I paid my employees at the top of the scale for the flying they did, but in return I expected them to be of top quality.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 3rd Jun 2010 at 19:44.
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You can sleep without fear of my being involved in the aviation college that is under construction in Canada because I personally do not think it is going to improve the working conditions across the board in Canada.
However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
But it isn't a perfect world is it? Properly using that automation requires skill, knowledge and experience. As a situation comes more unglued the pilot has to know how much to scale back the automation to suit the purpose. I've seen many pilots fail to do that properly because they've never been properly trained. When things start to break not only do you have to hand fly the airplane, but you may have to do it with degraded flight controls and seriously degraded flight instruments.
Hardly the cookie cutter skill set you allude to.
However where the ever downward spiral of pay comes into the industry is aircraft are continually evolving into human managed flying computers and most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
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and when you are in a middle of thunderstorms with things going TU, 30 knot crosswinds, contaminated runways and you're running out of gas to boot, well...let's just say that's a good time to have management negotiators on board.
And as I said before.
Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
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Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly them.
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Most anyone with normal motor skills and enough education to read and write and a basic grasp of math can be trained to fly a PBY or as number three with the Snowbirds. It just doesn't take superhuman qualities does it?
Seeing as you brought up the PBY what is your opinion on the how difficult it is to fly a PBY compared to a Boeing or an Airbus?
Personally it is my opinion that flying helicopters takes more aircraft handling skills than either the PBY or a large jet, what do you think?
I would hate to have only the PBY to compare things to.
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Seeing as you brought up the PBY what is your opinion on the how difficult it is to fly a PBY compared to a Boeing or an Airbus?
Personally it is my opinion that flying helicopters takes more aircraft handling skills than either the PBY or a large jet, what do you think?
I think you'll agree there is a difference between basic aircraft handling and operating an aircraft properly. Actual aircraft handling is one small part of the total picture unless you're flying something very simple. Judging a pilot's skill through that alone is absurd.
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I find numerous Airline transport pilots out here lack the manual flying skills or more accurately, are deficient in manual flying skills more the result of inadequate training opportunity than intellect, co-ordination, or mental capacity. It's not something you regularly do on the line. (well, possibly, but not on as regular a basis as we'd like)
We all need the opportunity to hand fly the machine. Whatever that machine might be. No question.
That said, I firmly believe the modern 'glass' aeroplane with it's auto magic needs to be mastered first. Then we master the manual skills. The problem is, as I said, opportunity.
Isn't that why we flew "UP NORTH" to get the manual flying honed and the IFR procedures engraved in our brains. Regretfully, I see this lack of manual flying skills as the system deficiency. The operators aren't hiring the numbers they used to and the ones joining them to acquire these skills aren't sticking around long enough to cash in on that experience. Most are in too much of a rush to get into heavy iron, which we can't really blame them for.
Salaries. They suck, top to bottom. We're the ones imposing the way it IS in this industry. The pilot unions, starting with ACPA think they live in a capitalist system with democracy and justice YET, they impose a socialist/marxist/communist system on their entire pilot group.
That may sound preposterous, but, the way I see it, under communism, the store clerk and medical doctor receive the same kind of apartment and the same wage. I've always thought that was idiotic. The ALPAs and ACPAs of this world would have you believe that a F/O joining their company starts at the bottom with the stated starting salary, yet some new hire F/Os were wide body captains for a number of years with well over 9/10,000 hours. Unfortunately, if they join one of these 'union' airlines they will start at the bottom at the same starting salary with no consideration for experience. Removing experience certainly levels the playing field but doesn't remotely approach sensible. (I won't get into the Canadian - Air Canada merger)
Before there's a firestorm of agreement or disagreement, I'd simply point out that this is MY jaded view and I know from many conversations, many disagree.
That's fine.
So why then, would anyone think the 'airlines' in this country would be, operate or expect the pilot group out here to be clever enough to even suspect they're getting screwed????
I won't offer my qualifications and experience to any of these outfits anytime soon. F**kem.
We all need the opportunity to hand fly the machine. Whatever that machine might be. No question.
That said, I firmly believe the modern 'glass' aeroplane with it's auto magic needs to be mastered first. Then we master the manual skills. The problem is, as I said, opportunity.
Isn't that why we flew "UP NORTH" to get the manual flying honed and the IFR procedures engraved in our brains. Regretfully, I see this lack of manual flying skills as the system deficiency. The operators aren't hiring the numbers they used to and the ones joining them to acquire these skills aren't sticking around long enough to cash in on that experience. Most are in too much of a rush to get into heavy iron, which we can't really blame them for.
Salaries. They suck, top to bottom. We're the ones imposing the way it IS in this industry. The pilot unions, starting with ACPA think they live in a capitalist system with democracy and justice YET, they impose a socialist/marxist/communist system on their entire pilot group.
That may sound preposterous, but, the way I see it, under communism, the store clerk and medical doctor receive the same kind of apartment and the same wage. I've always thought that was idiotic. The ALPAs and ACPAs of this world would have you believe that a F/O joining their company starts at the bottom with the stated starting salary, yet some new hire F/Os were wide body captains for a number of years with well over 9/10,000 hours. Unfortunately, if they join one of these 'union' airlines they will start at the bottom at the same starting salary with no consideration for experience. Removing experience certainly levels the playing field but doesn't remotely approach sensible. (I won't get into the Canadian - Air Canada merger)
Before there's a firestorm of agreement or disagreement, I'd simply point out that this is MY jaded view and I know from many conversations, many disagree.
That's fine.
So why then, would anyone think the 'airlines' in this country would be, operate or expect the pilot group out here to be clever enough to even suspect they're getting screwed????
I won't offer my qualifications and experience to any of these outfits anytime soon. F**kem.
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So much bitchiness, wow.
Clunkdriver, for the record, TTC don't make $70,000 first year.
I am with GO, a few cents less than TTC.
After 3 years a driver will make approx $58,500 a year without over time.
So after 3 years, TTC and GO operators earn more than 1st and 2nd year Police Officers and a lot of started Pilots.
Personally if i could i would take a $40,000 flying job over my $60,000 driving job if i could.
Now back To TSC....
Lets hope they take back the flights TCX are doing for them right now!
Clunkdriver, for the record, TTC don't make $70,000 first year.
I am with GO, a few cents less than TTC.
After 3 years a driver will make approx $58,500 a year without over time.
So after 3 years, TTC and GO operators earn more than 1st and 2nd year Police Officers and a lot of started Pilots.
Personally if i could i would take a $40,000 flying job over my $60,000 driving job if i could.
Now back To TSC....
Lets hope they take back the flights TCX are doing for them right now!
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Man2YKF, the fact that you would fly a complex aircraft with all the check rides and other stuff that goes with it, for less than you get driving a bus underlines my point , that you even make this public does little to convince employers to change the situation, and by the way its a TTC relative who gave me the pay figures, maybe inflateing the pay makes him feel better!
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It's always a good thing when any of these carriers hire. Good luck to TS and to those who are trying to get in.
As for the business of flying in Canada, I can only do what I can do and change what I can change. Each of us are in the same boat.
As far as I'm concerned, what I CAN do (for me, myself, and I) is stop applying to canadian carriers and take away whatever experience and qualifications I have to offer in the process. Anyone with similar qualifications and experience could do the same if they so desired. This is where the difficulty lies.
Many won't do it. Many will work for $40,000 and as a result change nothing.
Only when the qualification and experience levels drop sufficiently in this country will operators need to find ways of attracting experience. IF THAT'S WHAT THEY, IN FACT, ARE TRULY LOOKING FOR.
I'm not convinced they are.
It's a vicious circle.
But, in the final analysis, many out there aren't paid what they're worth and any new hire with wide body international flying experience has to be worth more initially than any 3,000 or 5,000 hour turbo prop pilot with only domestic experience. (with all due respect)
We listen to and accept the standard line, this is 'industry standard' when it comes to starting wages as justification for the pathetic wage on offer. $40,000 was industry standard back in 1980. Surely, with COL and inflation factored over the last 30 years that industry standard should be a lot higher. But it isn't.
When pilots understand and accept what they're truly worth, many will stop offering their licences and experience to these carpetbaggers and fight back by not applying to them in the first place.
Ahhhh. In a perfect world....
Willie
As for the business of flying in Canada, I can only do what I can do and change what I can change. Each of us are in the same boat.
As far as I'm concerned, what I CAN do (for me, myself, and I) is stop applying to canadian carriers and take away whatever experience and qualifications I have to offer in the process. Anyone with similar qualifications and experience could do the same if they so desired. This is where the difficulty lies.
Many won't do it. Many will work for $40,000 and as a result change nothing.
Only when the qualification and experience levels drop sufficiently in this country will operators need to find ways of attracting experience. IF THAT'S WHAT THEY, IN FACT, ARE TRULY LOOKING FOR.
I'm not convinced they are.
It's a vicious circle.
But, in the final analysis, many out there aren't paid what they're worth and any new hire with wide body international flying experience has to be worth more initially than any 3,000 or 5,000 hour turbo prop pilot with only domestic experience. (with all due respect)
We listen to and accept the standard line, this is 'industry standard' when it comes to starting wages as justification for the pathetic wage on offer. $40,000 was industry standard back in 1980. Surely, with COL and inflation factored over the last 30 years that industry standard should be a lot higher. But it isn't.
When pilots understand and accept what they're truly worth, many will stop offering their licences and experience to these carpetbaggers and fight back by not applying to them in the first place.
Ahhhh. In a perfect world....
Willie
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There is a steady down trend in wages for pilots as airplanes become smarter and the pilot pool gets bigger.
What other profession can one think of where anyone with a level of education sufficient to allow them to read and write with some basic math skills can buy a license in a few months to work in the industry?
That and an overpowering desire to fly will keep the wages spiraling ever downwards.
It is amazing that a bus driver is worth more than an airplane driver.
Whoever decided to call the new generation of airline aircraft " Airbus " obviously knew what they were designing.
What other profession can one think of where anyone with a level of education sufficient to allow them to read and write with some basic math skills can buy a license in a few months to work in the industry?
That and an overpowering desire to fly will keep the wages spiraling ever downwards.
It is amazing that a bus driver is worth more than an airplane driver.
Whoever decided to call the new generation of airline aircraft " Airbus " obviously knew what they were designing.
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"Maintenance guys from Air Transat are now going on 737 training. Hmmmmmm.... and btw, they make $80,000 per year. Which is more than Air Canada pays"
Another proof that employees salary will not stop a well manage company from making money.
Southwest is another example.
While R.Milton is still collecting huge bonus/salary/pension (over $15millions in 2009 alone) and CR is following his footstep (reserving 5% of the cie stock for options/bonus for upper management incentive) while the cie is accumulating loss after loss and the employees are force to accept concession and AC shares in their pension plan instead of cash. What is wrong with this picture?
Another proof that employees salary will not stop a well manage company from making money.
Southwest is another example.
While R.Milton is still collecting huge bonus/salary/pension (over $15millions in 2009 alone) and CR is following his footstep (reserving 5% of the cie stock for options/bonus for upper management incentive) while the cie is accumulating loss after loss and the employees are force to accept concession and AC shares in their pension plan instead of cash. What is wrong with this picture?
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Chuck,
I'd say you're assessment of "cookie cutter" pilots strictly adhering to SOPs is spot on. Most of those "cookie cutter" pilots barely have a CPL/ME/IR and they're jumping into the RHS of serious equipment all over the world. Sadly, with TC approval of the MPL, Canada is soon to be guilty of the same offence. But, research will tell you this move is out of necessity. We're going to enter a period of serious pilot shortages. Aeroplanes will start hitting the ground with more regularity and examination of the flight deck compliment will reveal no surprise to us old fellas. Lack of experience KILLS.
You only have to look at the flight deck compliment in those aircraft that have suffered fatal loss of control, stall, or overrun accidents in the last 5 years to compile a disturbing trend. We in the type rating training business have no room in the syllabus to address manual flying skills and the airline doesn't want it in the cirriculum. Is this wrong? Damn right it is. But once again it's a question of economics and balance sheet. Out of economic realities to stay in business, not just stock holder pressure, the airlines are in serious positions to go bankrupt on any given day.
I do not support the MPL. I understand the intent and purpose. I participated in some of its earlier development. The cirriculum is outstanding. The three phases undoubtedly prepare the candidate for the RHS in just about any commercial airliner. This is not what industry needs. The lack of line experience imposes undue pressure on line captains who will have to focus more on, pardon the expression, babysitting the RHS.
Captain ranks who themselves, through attrition, will be more and more less experienced and who will fly with an ever increasing number of inexperienced RHSers. Green on green becoming Red on red.
For more than 15 years now this industry has allowed the treatment of its professional flight deck to spiral into a state of mistreatment, disrespect, inappropriate financial compensation, cancellation of pensions, and removal of the preflight sandwich tray (talk about cheap). We are at the point where not many young individuals even think about piloting as a career. Gee, what a surprise!
It may be time we put a quash to the notion that we will accept anyone with less than ____________ (you fill in the blank) as the minimum acceptable licence and experience in the RHS sitting next to us and if the airline has to cut back, park aeroplanes, delay expansion or face financial ruin ONLY then will they get the message.
I have seen the future, and we don't want to go there. Even though we will have to and STANDARDS will/must play a huge part in the assessment of these crews standards.
As for basic manual flying skills, like V1 cuts, we can practice the sH*t out of the maneuver and fly for 40 years plus and NEVER experience it on the line. In the newest 4th generation aircraft, we can fly the sH*t out of the thing using any control law and manual flight but we may have to fly more than 40 decades to experience an event that will require those talents.
That's just the way it is.
Willie
I'd say you're assessment of "cookie cutter" pilots strictly adhering to SOPs is spot on. Most of those "cookie cutter" pilots barely have a CPL/ME/IR and they're jumping into the RHS of serious equipment all over the world. Sadly, with TC approval of the MPL, Canada is soon to be guilty of the same offence. But, research will tell you this move is out of necessity. We're going to enter a period of serious pilot shortages. Aeroplanes will start hitting the ground with more regularity and examination of the flight deck compliment will reveal no surprise to us old fellas. Lack of experience KILLS.
You only have to look at the flight deck compliment in those aircraft that have suffered fatal loss of control, stall, or overrun accidents in the last 5 years to compile a disturbing trend. We in the type rating training business have no room in the syllabus to address manual flying skills and the airline doesn't want it in the cirriculum. Is this wrong? Damn right it is. But once again it's a question of economics and balance sheet. Out of economic realities to stay in business, not just stock holder pressure, the airlines are in serious positions to go bankrupt on any given day.
I do not support the MPL. I understand the intent and purpose. I participated in some of its earlier development. The cirriculum is outstanding. The three phases undoubtedly prepare the candidate for the RHS in just about any commercial airliner. This is not what industry needs. The lack of line experience imposes undue pressure on line captains who will have to focus more on, pardon the expression, babysitting the RHS.
Captain ranks who themselves, through attrition, will be more and more less experienced and who will fly with an ever increasing number of inexperienced RHSers. Green on green becoming Red on red.
For more than 15 years now this industry has allowed the treatment of its professional flight deck to spiral into a state of mistreatment, disrespect, inappropriate financial compensation, cancellation of pensions, and removal of the preflight sandwich tray (talk about cheap). We are at the point where not many young individuals even think about piloting as a career. Gee, what a surprise!
It may be time we put a quash to the notion that we will accept anyone with less than ____________ (you fill in the blank) as the minimum acceptable licence and experience in the RHS sitting next to us and if the airline has to cut back, park aeroplanes, delay expansion or face financial ruin ONLY then will they get the message.
I have seen the future, and we don't want to go there. Even though we will have to and STANDARDS will/must play a huge part in the assessment of these crews standards.
As for basic manual flying skills, like V1 cuts, we can practice the sH*t out of the maneuver and fly for 40 years plus and NEVER experience it on the line. In the newest 4th generation aircraft, we can fly the sH*t out of the thing using any control law and manual flight but we may have to fly more than 40 decades to experience an event that will require those talents.
That's just the way it is.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 10th Jun 2010 at 15:42.