Command Upgrades West Jet and AC
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Command Upgrades West Jet and AC
Hi All,
i am currently flying wide body, long haul, as a First Officer, based in India. Total Time 5000hrs, 4000hrs wide body jet time. With my seniority, i expect to commence command training in about 1 year.
Looking to migrate to Canada, i am aware it may not be the best move career wise. However, i am still in the process of evaluating various factors.
For a fresh recruit what is the expected time to upgrade to the Left seat with West Jet and Air Canada. Also which of these 2 airlines would proide more job stability.
Any information on the related topic is much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
i am currently flying wide body, long haul, as a First Officer, based in India. Total Time 5000hrs, 4000hrs wide body jet time. With my seniority, i expect to commence command training in about 1 year.
Looking to migrate to Canada, i am aware it may not be the best move career wise. However, i am still in the process of evaluating various factors.
For a fresh recruit what is the expected time to upgrade to the Left seat with West Jet and Air Canada. Also which of these 2 airlines would proide more job stability.
Any information on the related topic is much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
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Hi,
Both AC and WJ would be good long term career options.
IMHO - who cares about the time to upgrade. In Canada, taxes are quite high, but as is occasionally said on this forum, the government has not figured out how to tax your time off. To me, an airline job is all about finding a balance between quality of life and your paycheck. You see many many folks at AC who choose to move to the right seat of the Airbus 320 or B767 instead of pursuing a quicker upgrade on the E190. Pay is a bit less, but your quality of life would be much much better.
From what I understand, upgrades on the E190 had been happening within a year, but this was due to a quirk of the company expanding their fleet with E175s/190s. Now that the aircraft are on the property, expect upgrade time to start taking much longer. If wearing four trips and being a captain is your thing, then by all means go for it, but you'll be a bottom-feeder, on reserve and at scheduling's whims for a long time.
My philosophy is I'd fly a C172 if they offered me a job 10 minutes from my home and paid me $125k per year :-).
Good luck with your choice.
Both AC and WJ would be good long term career options.
IMHO - who cares about the time to upgrade. In Canada, taxes are quite high, but as is occasionally said on this forum, the government has not figured out how to tax your time off. To me, an airline job is all about finding a balance between quality of life and your paycheck. You see many many folks at AC who choose to move to the right seat of the Airbus 320 or B767 instead of pursuing a quicker upgrade on the E190. Pay is a bit less, but your quality of life would be much much better.
From what I understand, upgrades on the E190 had been happening within a year, but this was due to a quirk of the company expanding their fleet with E175s/190s. Now that the aircraft are on the property, expect upgrade time to start taking much longer. If wearing four trips and being a captain is your thing, then by all means go for it, but you'll be a bottom-feeder, on reserve and at scheduling's whims for a long time.
My philosophy is I'd fly a C172 if they offered me a job 10 minutes from my home and paid me $125k per year :-).
Good luck with your choice.
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HI JTrain,
Thanks a lot for your response.
I completely agree with you on that C172 job!!
Payscales wise what can one expect for starters in WJ and AC??
Anyways, i am trying to gather as much information as i can, before taking the plunge, so please keep the posts comming.
Cheers!!
Thanks a lot for your response.
I completely agree with you on that C172 job!!
Payscales wise what can one expect for starters in WJ and AC??
Anyways, i am trying to gather as much information as i can, before taking the plunge, so please keep the posts comming.
Cheers!!
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First year FO at Westjet starts at $40,000 rising to around 90-100k by year three. Junior Captains make about 140-150k. Time to upgrade probably 6-8 years. 15 days a month off guaranteed. No seniority in scheduling so lifestyle can be tailored from the start. Four weeks paid vacation a year to start.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
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Upgrades to Captain at AC on the Embraer are currently approximately one year and 320 in Toronto at about 5-6 years.
Emb capt pay after 2 to 3 years around 110,000$.
Most junior 767 FO in YUL or YVR around 8 years (125,000$) and about 5 years in YYZ.
This of course can change in 30 seconds for the better or the worst.
777 FO....all I know is I've been here 9 years and I'm 350 numbers or so away from the bottom spot.
Emb capt pay after 2 to 3 years around 110,000$.
Most junior 767 FO in YUL or YVR around 8 years (125,000$) and about 5 years in YYZ.
This of course can change in 30 seconds for the better or the worst.
777 FO....all I know is I've been here 9 years and I'm 350 numbers or so away from the bottom spot.
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HI Duster1 & Meaw,
Thank you very much for your prompt responses, it is much appreciated.
Still have a bunch of queries;
1) Just wondering about the procedure involved in getting an interview with AC and WJ, how essential is it to have a reference?
2) At AC, does previous flying experience factor in on the aircraft on which you start of on.
3) Are the interviews more technical oriented or is it more of a personal/ human resource.
4) I have heard a lot of good things about the working conditions at WJ. Specifically speaking, at WJ and AC, what kind of a relationship exist between the management and the pilot body, respectively.
Thanks all, for your help.
Cheers!!
Thank you very much for your prompt responses, it is much appreciated.
Still have a bunch of queries;
1) Just wondering about the procedure involved in getting an interview with AC and WJ, how essential is it to have a reference?
2) At AC, does previous flying experience factor in on the aircraft on which you start of on.
3) Are the interviews more technical oriented or is it more of a personal/ human resource.
4) I have heard a lot of good things about the working conditions at WJ. Specifically speaking, at WJ and AC, what kind of a relationship exist between the management and the pilot body, respectively.
Thanks all, for your help.
Cheers!!
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4Engines,
1)-Not important at AC....many get hired without knowing anybody or getting help.
To get an interview you apply online at the AC website.
2)-No.You get to choose your acft based on your class seniority wich in my time meant ex-Jazz were the most senior and the rest would draw their number out of a hat.It still goes by seniority but I'm not sure how it's determined nowadays.
3-)At AC I don't think it's technical but lot's of emphasis on the character of the person.
4-)Bad relationship with management but nonetheles excellent working conditions and very safety oriented culture ,lots of emphasis on CRM
1)-Not important at AC....many get hired without knowing anybody or getting help.
To get an interview you apply online at the AC website.
2)-No.You get to choose your acft based on your class seniority wich in my time meant ex-Jazz were the most senior and the rest would draw their number out of a hat.It still goes by seniority but I'm not sure how it's determined nowadays.
3-)At AC I don't think it's technical but lot's of emphasis on the character of the person.
4-)Bad relationship with management but nonetheles excellent working conditions and very safety oriented culture ,lots of emphasis on CRM
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Hi Meaw,
As always, thank you for your response.
All airlines have got their pros and cons, based on your inputs AC seems like a perfectly nice place to start off.
However having flown long haul for 5 years, flying short haul would be a good experience too.
Any advice on that?
Thank you ALL.
As always, thank you for your response.
All airlines have got their pros and cons, based on your inputs AC seems like a perfectly nice place to start off.
However having flown long haul for 5 years, flying short haul would be a good experience too.
Any advice on that?
Thank you ALL.
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4engines,
I've flown both short and longhaul and enjoy both.Some friends of mine swear by one or hate the other,some like a bit of both.
What I'm saying is that only you will know once you've tried it.
The good thing at AC is that there is plenty of both and you can change aircraft type if you want to.
The thing is when you get hired you may get the choice between EMBRAER FO or 777 Relief that's about it.You'll then have to wait for your seniority to allow you to move to something else....every 6 months we have an equipment bid where you can bid off your type if your seniority permits.
I've flown both short and longhaul and enjoy both.Some friends of mine swear by one or hate the other,some like a bit of both.
What I'm saying is that only you will know once you've tried it.
The good thing at AC is that there is plenty of both and you can change aircraft type if you want to.
The thing is when you get hired you may get the choice between EMBRAER FO or 777 Relief that's about it.You'll then have to wait for your seniority to allow you to move to something else....every 6 months we have an equipment bid where you can bid off your type if your seniority permits.
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If memory serves me correctly, bottom 767 fo in yyz was hired in 2005. There have been no 777 rp positions offered since the end of last year. There was actually a reduction in yyz. Only positions that have been given out now are emb fo and 767 rp. I think the rp positions may be all gone so now all emb fo jobs but that could change with the upcoming equipment bid.
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CX
"Hey 4engines,
Why not consider the highest paying airline in Canada...CX. They are currently hiring direct entry FO's on the passenger fleet in YVR and YYZ."
You could try CX but I will give you 49 reasons not to...............If you are moving to Canada for security then goto AC or WJ...............CX is a contract job and should be treated with caution unless you are a yes man who carries vasaline in your flight bag and jump when you are told to........as far as highest paid that is a croc.............when you break it down hourly AC 777 skipper makes more for his time then a CX skipper........unless you were old school A scale...........and hell my mate WAS an A scale skipper till Nick Rhodes and his crownies destroyed his families lives.............
Quality of life at CX does not compare to WJ or AC...........
Why not consider the highest paying airline in Canada...CX. They are currently hiring direct entry FO's on the passenger fleet in YVR and YYZ."
You could try CX but I will give you 49 reasons not to...............If you are moving to Canada for security then goto AC or WJ...............CX is a contract job and should be treated with caution unless you are a yes man who carries vasaline in your flight bag and jump when you are told to........as far as highest paid that is a croc.............when you break it down hourly AC 777 skipper makes more for his time then a CX skipper........unless you were old school A scale...........and hell my mate WAS an A scale skipper till Nick Rhodes and his crownies destroyed his families lives.............
Quality of life at CX does not compare to WJ or AC...........
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As an expat, being a contract employee and carring vaseline, seems to be a common feature of most asian airlines. Working for an asian carrier (albeit permanent, not contract), where i am currently, a part of the reason i want to move is working conditions, therefore the asian carriers are definitely out.
I would much rather, start at the bottom in WJ or AC.
A few posts prior, Meaw, mentioned, that at AC the relationship between the pilots and management is not great, but the working conditions are good. Could you please elaborate on that.
In advance, thanks all for the responses.
Cheers.
I would much rather, start at the bottom in WJ or AC.
A few posts prior, Meaw, mentioned, that at AC the relationship between the pilots and management is not great, but the working conditions are good. Could you please elaborate on that.
In advance, thanks all for the responses.
Cheers.
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4 Engines
The pilot management relationship at WJ is generally very good. Our Chief Pilot Line OPs is very approachable - as an example on a couple of occasions when I need some time off for family reasons his answer was "No problem, call me when you are ready to come back to work." We do not have a union,rather a Pilots Association and they have established a mutually respectful relationship with upper management resulting in an innovative and highly lucrative pilot agreement. So far things are on track for our new agreement scheduled for 2009. Working conditions are excellent - most employees are positive and motivated. As a commuting pilot, I am able to tailor my schedule to work around my family, and spend about 5-8 nights a month away from home - doing mainly short haul stuff - others prefer longer routes and bid accordingly.
One caveat - if you are used to a rigidly formal structure like in some Asian carriers you will find WJ much different - we take the job and safety very seriously , but try and keep employee relations relaxed and informal. I've been flying for 26 years and this is by far the best airline job around - still look forward to going to work.
Cheers
The pilot management relationship at WJ is generally very good. Our Chief Pilot Line OPs is very approachable - as an example on a couple of occasions when I need some time off for family reasons his answer was "No problem, call me when you are ready to come back to work." We do not have a union,rather a Pilots Association and they have established a mutually respectful relationship with upper management resulting in an innovative and highly lucrative pilot agreement. So far things are on track for our new agreement scheduled for 2009. Working conditions are excellent - most employees are positive and motivated. As a commuting pilot, I am able to tailor my schedule to work around my family, and spend about 5-8 nights a month away from home - doing mainly short haul stuff - others prefer longer routes and bid accordingly.
One caveat - if you are used to a rigidly formal structure like in some Asian carriers you will find WJ much different - we take the job and safety very seriously , but try and keep employee relations relaxed and informal. I've been flying for 26 years and this is by far the best airline job around - still look forward to going to work.
Cheers
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Hi all,
In terms of job security etc, the Canadian airline industry, seems quite similar to the one in the US.
Generally speaking, the people on the Canada Forum, seem to be quite pessimistic about the Canadian Airline Industry, what could be the reason for that?
Is is because entry level jobs are difficult to get?
Also what are the expansion plans for WJ and AC?
Is any major hiring likely at WJ and AC, in 2009/2010?
I am new to the canadian aviation industry so please excuse my ignorance
Thnx in advance!!
In terms of job security etc, the Canadian airline industry, seems quite similar to the one in the US.
Generally speaking, the people on the Canada Forum, seem to be quite pessimistic about the Canadian Airline Industry, what could be the reason for that?
Is is because entry level jobs are difficult to get?
Also what are the expansion plans for WJ and AC?
Is any major hiring likely at WJ and AC, in 2009/2010?
I am new to the canadian aviation industry so please excuse my ignorance
Thnx in advance!!
Generally speaking, the people on the Canada Forum, seem to be quite pessimistic about the Canadian Airline Industry, what could be the reason for that?
The world of Airline flying in Canada is a VERY small part of the aviation scene in Canada. There are many more pilots than jobs in Canada so for the last 20 years; the companies have had it pretty good. They have been able to lower wages and working conditions, pick and choose who they would hire, often based on some very questionable qualifiers. The most common reason for being hired being you were related to someone who was a pilot or best drinking buddies with a chief pilot. So, you had to be very persistent and you had to endure some very disreputable people and companies if you wanted to make it to the airlines… many of which had year’s long hiring freezes. Once you made it to the airlines, work conditions were better, but had still undergone a general gutting of wages and working conditions.
There are a myriad of political landmines in Air Canada that I won’t go into, but I am certain that as retirements continue, these issues will take care of themselves. WestJet, being a younger company does not have the same issues as Air Canada… they have different issues. WestJet’s issues are basically centered on growing pains and will also resolve themselves in the long term. Both AC and WJ will continue to hire to offset retirements, and in WJ’s case to handle the growth that the airline is planning.
If you are wondering where the negative attitude comes from, it is from a demoralized workforce that has undergone a long period of tough working conditions and no movement. Things turned the corner here a few years back, and the airlines started hiring, people began moving on and the charter companies have had to adjust their wages and working conditions in an upward direction. That said, the airlines have yet to move on their wages, so you can expect some labour unrest in the short term in the market as people begin to ask for what was taken from them over the “dark” years. I am optimistic that things will all work out in the end.
So, here’s the short answer’s to your questions:
Is is because entry level jobs are difficult to get?
Also what are the expansion plans for WJ and AC?
Is any major hiring likely at WJ and AC, in 2009/2010?
Now, I don’t have any hard numbers to back up my guesses for growth and hiring… just rumours. As we all know, until you are sitting in it doing 80 kts down the runway, it doesn’t exist, so take the rumours for what you will. I am sure there are others here that may have more accurate numbers than me. I hope that fills in some of the blanks for you.
MH
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Canadian Aviation
Hey 4 engines you are getting some excellent advice from everyone and it may be a bit confusing. Canadian aviation does run in cycles of layoffs and closures. The trick seems to be get your number as in the case of AC and ride out the storm. Your fortunate that if you do get your layoff papers at Ac and an extended vacation" pack your lubricant" to quote the pitoman do some contracting on a commuter basis till the drama has ended. I personally do not work anymore in Canada and don`t have a number at AC. But this has worked well for the guys that I met overseas and they didn`t miss a beet after being laid off. Some of them even considered staying overseas and commuting.....till happy hour ended. Just stay employed is the name of the game and watch out for the start ups. If Michelle Leblanc signs your paycheque it`s warp speed to bank boy. No I did not work for Jets go/gone. Your life in Canada although heavily taxed is worth it.
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Hello All!!
Thanx for the detailed responses, really appreciate you guys taking the time and effort for the posts.
Some ammount of job insecurity seems to be inbuilt in the Canadian Airline system but as Hamtarro rightly said, get your number and ride out the storm. Also i agree that Canada is an extremely nice place to live, notwithstanding the high taxes.
Mostly Harmless, thanx for your detailed response. I guess 10 a month, still sounds good, i am optimistic that i may still get lucky enough to land a job at WJ or AC.
Heard about the order of some 30 odd 787s for AC, due in 2010, so may be the hiring will still remain strong, or may be they are just a replacement for the 767s...
Cheers.
Thanx for the detailed responses, really appreciate you guys taking the time and effort for the posts.
Some ammount of job insecurity seems to be inbuilt in the Canadian Airline system but as Hamtarro rightly said, get your number and ride out the storm. Also i agree that Canada is an extremely nice place to live, notwithstanding the high taxes.
Mostly Harmless, thanx for your detailed response. I guess 10 a month, still sounds good, i am optimistic that i may still get lucky enough to land a job at WJ or AC.
Heard about the order of some 30 odd 787s for AC, due in 2010, so may be the hiring will still remain strong, or may be they are just a replacement for the 767s...
Cheers.