Interesting Article Regarding the 'Pilot Shortage'...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting Article Regarding the 'Pilot Shortage'...
Air Canada Jazz to hire pilots from school
Tom Blackwell, National Post
Published: Sunday, August 26, 2007
Faced with a growing pilot shortage, Air Canada Jazz has launched an experimental program to hire several cockpit crew every year straight from flight school, ushering in pilots with hundreds of hours' less experience than those traditionally recruited by the airline.
The program has left some current Jazz pilots "in an uproar," but the airline insists it can incorporate the less-seasoned aviators without compromising safety.
Experts say other Canadian airlines may have to resort to similar recruiting tactics as the booming air industries in Asia and Europe lure more and more experienced crew away from North America.
Mike Daugherty, 20, admitted he was "shocked" when the company made him a tentative job offer just after graduating this spring from Sault College's aviation program. He starts in September and could be co-piloting a Dash-8 or Bombardier Regional Jet by January.
Such graduates typically have about 250 hours flight time, as much as 50 hours of that on a simulator. A regular job posting that Jazz currently has on the Internet demands a minimum of 1,500 hours.
"There are individuals that might look at this as a negative thing, as a setback, just because we have lack of flight experience, which I totally understand," Mr. Daugherty said.
"That was my big question when this program first started: There's a whole bunch of us going in there with very minimal flight time. Is that going to pose a big problem? But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable."
The airline is still hiring more experienced pilots as well, but is testing out its new "partnership" with several community-college flying programs to try to avert any problems down the road, said Manon Stuart, a Jazz spokeswoman. The eight college graduates, picked for being the top students at their schools, will get months of training at the airline before starting work as first officers, or co-pilots, on actual passenger-carrying flights, and will only do that if they are deemed fully qualified, she said.
Brian Shury, a Jazz captain and a spokesman for the pilots' union, the Air Line Pilots Association, said he believes the program can be implemented safely, if proper steps are followed. Nonetheless, a risk assessment is being conducted to be certain, he said.
Not everyone at the company is happy about it, though.
"The line pilots at Jazz are in an uproar, even to the point of having unofficial petitions posted on pilot bulletin boards," said an employee who did not want to be identified. "Not only does the average pilot think that this hiring scheme is ludicrous, many line captains feel they are ill-prepared and ill-trained to monitor and manage ... these inexperienced co-pilots."
Ms. Stuart pointed to estimates that 17,000 extra pilots will be needed annually over the next 20 years just to accommodate the new aircraft that companies have ordered. "The pool is depleting and is depleting rapidly."
Pilots for North American airlines that have frozen or cut back salaries to recover from post-9/11 financial woes are increasingly being poached by booming, and better-paying, companies in China, Southeast Asia, India and the Middle East, said Capt. Shury. Popular discount carriers in Europe are also snapping up staff.
"The pilot shortage is going to be incredible," said Dan Mahoney, a former U.S. Airways pilot and aviation safety consultant. "Everyone is flying, they've got hundreds of aircraft on order and they need pilots ... As much as we have concerns [about hiring inexperienced pilots], there are no options for the airlines any more."
Some European carriers, including Lufthansa, have already started recruiting inexperienced flight-school graduates, said Mr. Mahoney.
The lack of experience can be mitigated to a certain extent with extra training, and training for the captains on how to teach novice crew members, he said.
There really is no replacement, though, for experience, said Capt. Shury. A pilot with a few thousand hours "has time to mature," would likely have handled one or more emergencies and experienced a variety of bad weather, he said. Still, European airlines such as Austria's Tyrolean have instituted programs like Jazz's with apparent success, he said.
"We're certainly not going to sit back ... if we believe the program is not completely safe," added Capt. Shury.
Mr. Daugherty got his private licence as a teenager and studied at Sault College for three years after high school. The Ottawa native figured he would get a job doing fire patrols in Northern Ontario, then progress to air ambulances before winning his dream airline job. Training at the college was on a Czech single-engine plane called a Zlin 242-L and the twin-engine Piper Seminole.
He acknowledged that Jazz's 37-seat Dash-8 and the 50-seat Regional Jet are quite different vehicles.
Each one is "a bigger aircraft, flies a little faster and carries a few more people," he said. "I almost want to say it's like night and day, but there are some similarities."
Tom Blackwell, National Post
Published: Sunday, August 26, 2007
Faced with a growing pilot shortage, Air Canada Jazz has launched an experimental program to hire several cockpit crew every year straight from flight school, ushering in pilots with hundreds of hours' less experience than those traditionally recruited by the airline.
The program has left some current Jazz pilots "in an uproar," but the airline insists it can incorporate the less-seasoned aviators without compromising safety.
Experts say other Canadian airlines may have to resort to similar recruiting tactics as the booming air industries in Asia and Europe lure more and more experienced crew away from North America.
Mike Daugherty, 20, admitted he was "shocked" when the company made him a tentative job offer just after graduating this spring from Sault College's aviation program. He starts in September and could be co-piloting a Dash-8 or Bombardier Regional Jet by January.
Such graduates typically have about 250 hours flight time, as much as 50 hours of that on a simulator. A regular job posting that Jazz currently has on the Internet demands a minimum of 1,500 hours.
"There are individuals that might look at this as a negative thing, as a setback, just because we have lack of flight experience, which I totally understand," Mr. Daugherty said.
"That was my big question when this program first started: There's a whole bunch of us going in there with very minimal flight time. Is that going to pose a big problem? But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills, and we're pretty adaptable."
The airline is still hiring more experienced pilots as well, but is testing out its new "partnership" with several community-college flying programs to try to avert any problems down the road, said Manon Stuart, a Jazz spokeswoman. The eight college graduates, picked for being the top students at their schools, will get months of training at the airline before starting work as first officers, or co-pilots, on actual passenger-carrying flights, and will only do that if they are deemed fully qualified, she said.
Brian Shury, a Jazz captain and a spokesman for the pilots' union, the Air Line Pilots Association, said he believes the program can be implemented safely, if proper steps are followed. Nonetheless, a risk assessment is being conducted to be certain, he said.
Not everyone at the company is happy about it, though.
"The line pilots at Jazz are in an uproar, even to the point of having unofficial petitions posted on pilot bulletin boards," said an employee who did not want to be identified. "Not only does the average pilot think that this hiring scheme is ludicrous, many line captains feel they are ill-prepared and ill-trained to monitor and manage ... these inexperienced co-pilots."
Ms. Stuart pointed to estimates that 17,000 extra pilots will be needed annually over the next 20 years just to accommodate the new aircraft that companies have ordered. "The pool is depleting and is depleting rapidly."
Pilots for North American airlines that have frozen or cut back salaries to recover from post-9/11 financial woes are increasingly being poached by booming, and better-paying, companies in China, Southeast Asia, India and the Middle East, said Capt. Shury. Popular discount carriers in Europe are also snapping up staff.
"The pilot shortage is going to be incredible," said Dan Mahoney, a former U.S. Airways pilot and aviation safety consultant. "Everyone is flying, they've got hundreds of aircraft on order and they need pilots ... As much as we have concerns [about hiring inexperienced pilots], there are no options for the airlines any more."
Some European carriers, including Lufthansa, have already started recruiting inexperienced flight-school graduates, said Mr. Mahoney.
The lack of experience can be mitigated to a certain extent with extra training, and training for the captains on how to teach novice crew members, he said.
There really is no replacement, though, for experience, said Capt. Shury. A pilot with a few thousand hours "has time to mature," would likely have handled one or more emergencies and experienced a variety of bad weather, he said. Still, European airlines such as Austria's Tyrolean have instituted programs like Jazz's with apparent success, he said.
"We're certainly not going to sit back ... if we believe the program is not completely safe," added Capt. Shury.
Mr. Daugherty got his private licence as a teenager and studied at Sault College for three years after high school. The Ottawa native figured he would get a job doing fire patrols in Northern Ontario, then progress to air ambulances before winning his dream airline job. Training at the college was on a Czech single-engine plane called a Zlin 242-L and the twin-engine Piper Seminole.
He acknowledged that Jazz's 37-seat Dash-8 and the 50-seat Regional Jet are quite different vehicles.
Each one is "a bigger aircraft, flies a little faster and carries a few more people," he said. "I almost want to say it's like night and day, but there are some similarities."
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been doing this in Europe for years,
I flew with a F/O a short while ago who had 146 hrs actual flying time (rest in a sim to make up the 250) prior to being given a job on a 320
I flew with a F/O a short while ago who had 146 hrs actual flying time (rest in a sim to make up the 250) prior to being given a job on a 320
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But we kind of make up for lack of experience with personal skills, management skills,
Well, that makes me all warm and fuzzy knowing his personal skills will help when it's dark and stormy and the real world rears its head as things are going south! Of course we all know that abnormals and emergencies are always by the book and he won't have to fall back on his experience to help develop a plan.
Well, that makes me all warm and fuzzy knowing his personal skills will help when it's dark and stormy and the real world rears its head as things are going south! Of course we all know that abnormals and emergencies are always by the book and he won't have to fall back on his experience to help develop a plan.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CY??
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Been doing this in Europe for years,
I flew with a F/O a short while ago who had 146 hrs actual flying time (rest in a sim to make up the 250) prior to being given a job on a 320
I flew with a F/O a short while ago who had 146 hrs actual flying time (rest in a sim to make up the 250) prior to being given a job on a 320
The college programs that are being used here are more generic programs designed to give people a commercial licence and some sort of post-secondary diploma, and then shoot them off into the wider job market to look for a flying position - far different than the focused, airline-constructed cadetships offered by major airlines in Europe and Asia..
Having experienced some of these guys I agree with 604guy. Personal and management skills are great in the bar, or for organising crew transport, but on a sh...y dark night when all is going to rats, experience counts big time.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Airplane
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.Having experienced some of these guys I agree with 604guy. Personal and management skills are great in the bar, or for organising crew transport, but on a sh...y dark night when all is going to rats, experience counts big time
7
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I have "the big one" it's up to the 250hr wonder to get me (and the other 220 people) on the ground safely.
I can not believe there is a Pilot alive that can support this, it's all about the greed of the corporations. Not wanting to PAY WHAT THE JOB is worth.
We (collectively) wonder why Pilot Salarys are in the tank!
I can not believe there is a Pilot alive that can support this, it's all about the greed of the corporations. Not wanting to PAY WHAT THE JOB is worth.
We (collectively) wonder why Pilot Salarys are in the tank!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Johnny767, I don't agree. This has been the norm in Europe for years - and it isn't just cadet programs, airlines hire "250 hour wonders" out of normal flying schools all the time. As an airline captain here in the UK I fly with these guys all the time and have every confidence that if I bought it and they had to save the day, they would. A few years back this exact scenario happened in my airline and the brand new JR FO did, in fact, save the day (except for the captain who sadly died).
On the other hand, I have seen many smug several-thousand hour FO's who scared the life out of me as a result of their complacency.
Hiring low hour pilots is not necessarily a cost reduction exercise, just look at the rates of pay here in Europe. A second officer position pays as much as a turboprop captain in Canada. Rates of pay in Canada are already rock-bottom and I cannot see how they could possibly be driven lower.
I see this as a very positive development as it is an indication that the industry in Canada is finally moving, and the poaching of Canadian pilots by the rest of the world should drag the industry back up to a better, liveable, level. It's all supply and demand and it is true that pilots are very much in demand.
On the other hand, I have seen many smug several-thousand hour FO's who scared the life out of me as a result of their complacency.
Hiring low hour pilots is not necessarily a cost reduction exercise, just look at the rates of pay here in Europe. A second officer position pays as much as a turboprop captain in Canada. Rates of pay in Canada are already rock-bottom and I cannot see how they could possibly be driven lower.
I see this as a very positive development as it is an indication that the industry in Canada is finally moving, and the poaching of Canadian pilots by the rest of the world should drag the industry back up to a better, liveable, level. It's all supply and demand and it is true that pilots are very much in demand.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, it is certainly not the case in Canada. Jazz (Air Canada) simply want to perpetuate the abililty to pay poverty wages, to new-hire Pilots.
If the starting wage at Jazz was (say for arguments sake) $125.000 / year, which is about what a Corporate Jet Captain is earning, they wouldn't have trouble attracting qualified applicants. Flat out, that should be the starting wage for an Airline Pilot.
You can make that selling cars!
I started a thread on another topic and got this reply from a BA Pilot:
I will never forget an 11 year 747 copilot- lowest paid on the crew. Less than a 3 month CC. Second in command?
This dates earlier in August. So if Pilot pay is so good in Europe, why is a 11 year 747 F/O earn less that a 3 Month F/A at British Airways?
You wonder why Pilot pay is in the tank? We put up with this B.S.!!
If the starting wage at Jazz was (say for arguments sake) $125.000 / year, which is about what a Corporate Jet Captain is earning, they wouldn't have trouble attracting qualified applicants. Flat out, that should be the starting wage for an Airline Pilot.
You can make that selling cars!
I started a thread on another topic and got this reply from a BA Pilot:
I will never forget an 11 year 747 copilot- lowest paid on the crew. Less than a 3 month CC. Second in command?
This dates earlier in August. So if Pilot pay is so good in Europe, why is a 11 year 747 F/O earn less that a 3 Month F/A at British Airways?
You wonder why Pilot pay is in the tank? We put up with this B.S.!!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are many guys/girls flying overseas because of the lack of pay in canada. Should the pay come up to some sort of decent standard, I am sure that many of these positions could be filled up with well experienced people. Pay peanuts, get .....
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Johnny767,
That BA pilot was pulling your leg.
There is no way an 11yr FO (on any fleet) at BA is making less than a 3 month CC. New CCs in all UK airlines make poverty-level wages and rely on commission and cigarettes. Now, a 30 year purser might be making more 
, but that is another issue (of many) that BA needs to sort out!
That BA pilot was pulling your leg.
There is no way an 11yr FO (on any fleet) at BA is making less than a 3 month CC. New CCs in all UK airlines make poverty-level wages and rely on commission and cigarettes. Now, a 30 year purser might be making more , but that is another issue (of many) that BA needs to sort out!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somehwere on the planet
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup, sad to see, but expect more of this as more well paid opportunities open up overseas.
I'm one of those guys that's moved out of canada cause i can't make a decent wage there. In order to make the same back in canada as i'm making here i'd have to have a salary of approx $250K/year. Since that isn't going to happen, i'll finish the career overseas.
Hopefully the outflow of experienced pilots eventually brings the wages up in Canada as well.
I'm one of those guys that's moved out of canada cause i can't make a decent wage there. In order to make the same back in canada as i'm making here i'd have to have a salary of approx $250K/year. Since that isn't going to happen, i'll finish the career overseas.
Hopefully the outflow of experienced pilots eventually brings the wages up in Canada as well.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 19 th. hole
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a question. Are these colleges subsidized by the government? and if so shouldn't the airline hiring them pay for the costs or is this a case of the government paying for training with our tax dollars?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The current system of working your way up to a jet by hour building via bush flying etc is of course ideal, it creates experienced pilots. However, it can't accomodate a booming aviation industry, so change is needed. Canada hasn't yet experienced the low cost boom that we have seen in Europe fuelled by the likes of Ryanair & Easyjet, if a low cost carrier like Ryanair were to make a success in the Canadian market (without folding after a couple of years like some recent carriers) you would see students being recruited from schools as a norm, just like in Europe. I'm just not sure how many pilots would stump up the 40,000 dollar cash for a type rating 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: out there somewhere...
Posts: 763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work offshore...the airline I currently work for has a cadet program and these younger pilots come into their first job with a frozen ATPL, plus all the PPL, CPL and instrument training and an endorsement on a fast modern (avionics and auto flight) type bizzjet. They go through a very serious training program that would make most guys from my neck of the woods question why they wanted to do this in the first place. They know the regs, the systems and the SOP's front to back. In a nutshell, it all comes down to one word...TRAINING. They gain experience (like we all did) by working hard and passing more than a few periodic checks designed to ensure they are staying diligent and paying attention. To say that the one night the old man slips off this mortal coil is the end of that flight isn't anywhere near the truth. These guys are well trained to make decisions and to use ALL the tools provided. ACARS, SATCOM and the like, which will ensure a "happy ending" for everyone. (He might need a bit of time off after but so would I!) These guys are more than likely gonna stay with their company for 35 to 40 years and will upgrade about 8 -10 years from start. That makes a long and prosperous career for these guys. You can't compare their career path to anyone else path with a GA background, there simply isn't any GA in many countries, and that changes the way these cadets look at work. They are not the poor guy in the right seat who suffers while he thinks you are blocking his path and knows more than you do...(aaah youth!) I would prefer working with these smart and sharp people, than with the bitter angry and sometimes indifferent people who have been tainted by a system in a country with no aviation policy. (except to turn a blind eye to the standards and policies that allow some operators to go cheap on training and wages to make a buck.) There will be different experiences at different employers (who hire expat pilots) and not all of you will agree with me, I am merely speaking from my own experience. (The couple of companies I worked for before this job would be a good example of how NOT to run anything associated with aviation, but that's a different thread! 
) There, rant over, thanks...
LC
) There, rant over, thanks...LC
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First Post guys
I am 46. I have PPL and close to 200 hrs TT. I have night and am wondering if the jump to CPL is worth the coin.
Will AC or Jazz hire a guy like me with age as his biggest factor against him?
Do I bite the bullet and go for the ATPL or do I remain where I am making 60K a year at a desk job?
Advise me please before I do something I'll regret.
Thanks
I am 46. I have PPL and close to 200 hrs TT. I have night and am wondering if the jump to CPL is worth the coin.
Will AC or Jazz hire a guy like me with age as his biggest factor against him?
Do I bite the bullet and go for the ATPL or do I remain where I am making 60K a year at a desk job?
Advise me please before I do something I'll regret.
Thanks