BA IR issues
 

Well Im still receiving texts from BASSA once a day cliaming that talks have broken down yet recieving ESS emails from management claiming the contrary and BASSA are attempting to distort the truth.
I know who I believe (along with most other crew) however am I somewhat misguided in my judgement?

Hopeful signs from todays pension meeting BA appear to be moving towards the union proposal. If the pensions issue is solved for the BASSA ballot will this change the result?

They shut the BASSA offices down at LHR and LGW at 1700 today. At lhr they were escorted out to shouts of vote yes and chants from around 60 crew.

Ok guys i'm crapping myself now!!! I'm in LGW SF and put my application in about 3 weeks ago! I've still not heard anything and have sent emails on ESS as to my application but to no avail! My next plan was to go and see them in person but having been in twice (inc today when i had just flown trans-atlantic and was shattered) and both times no one was there!!! Now they've been given the boot where do i stand if they walk out? Am i right in thinking that i have to go in to work? pls guys some advice!!!!! (soz bout the poor formatting and no paragraphing but im stupidly tired! :zzz:

Paxy XX

Was it an application to BASSA or Amicus, I remember when I did mine for Amicus and it took a few weeks before I recieved anything. I am sure there will be some form of contacting BASSA soon enough. I would check the BASSA notice board that is just past security on the 3rd floor opposite the briefing rooms.

Why did BA close the BASSA Offices? Amicus too? They didn't have to go that far...

If I want to join next week, is it too late?

I want to vote YES. Anyway...as long as we make 700m pounds per year, I don't see any reason for any measures. And LGW hourly pay increase to 2,41 instead of breakfast allowance hahahaha....very funny BA ;)

L.

yeah it is BASSA....I just don't know who is best to contact! Any1 know wot position i'd be in if we went on strike and we weren't in the union?

If BASSA got your application before today you are covered and can legally strike. There is all the info on the bassa website. www.bassa.co.uk.

Might mean we get a few more flights away on time now that the crew only get a ringing tone when they ring the office to complain.:)

It's not the first time this has happened, I doubt it took the BASSA reps by surprise.

CC89 (AMICUS) today presented BASSA with an open letter, which has also been published on the BASSA website.

It basically says that they too are unhappy with their dealing with BA IFS management. Also that they support BASSA's stance. And that if BA do not enter more 'meaningful' talks with them they will have to instigate more 'formal' discussions with BA.

The letter finishes off by asking all CC89 members to ensure that they have provided up-to-date address details to the CC89 office.

Now CC89 has never had a history of militancy and is always been viewed as 'managements best mate' by BASSA. So things MUST be bad!!

Do you think that CC89s non-confrontational approach to IR has led to them being viewed as 'managements best mate' by BASSA? After all, BASSAs view has been that you are either with them or against them, and they've spent years slating CC89 in their 'news' publications by the security point in Compass. I've always found it telling that the CC89 members are generally calm-tempered independent thinkers, compared to some BASSA members who if they weren't causing aggro at work would be gathering outside the houses of suspected paedophiles with badly written placards.

It's also interesting that CC89 have decided that a number of issues BASSA want to strike for don't stand up because you've already agreed to them. Unfortunately that view won't get far as rational thought is the enemy of BASSA (lets face it they've run a strike ballot based on a show of hands of less than 2% of their membership) and now they are hunkering down with their siege mentality blaming everyone else for their misfortune yet expecting their support. This self-delusional stance seems to be feeding itself on their own bulletin board too judging by the bit of it I read last week.

PAX Agent and everybody else:
I do not know about BASSA's office, however Amicus office is opened thursday and friday. For urgent matters there's an on-call mobile number for both unions.
If nobody answers at LGW BASSA office you can always contact their LHR office.

Having said that, I contacted Amicus last week for an important issue that has nothing to do with the current events, and they left me a message last thursday to call them back which I did, in fact I called thur & fri numerous times, and nobody has called back or acknowledged my messages ever since :* As if anything else other than these talks didn't matter anymore now :mad: very professional indeed :*

CM - don't think you know what you are talking about. joint statement from amicus /bassa below.

BASSA and AMICUS 15 December 2006
AMICUS HAVE ASKED BASSA TO PUBLISH THEIR LETTER TO THEIR MEMBERS. THEY HAVE ALSO ASKED ALL THEIR MEMBERS ENSURE THAT cc89 HAVE THE CORRECT ADDRESSES FOR THEM. THEY ALSO WANT IT KNOWN THEY FULLY SUPPORT BASSA's POSITION ON ALL OUR POINTS OF CONFLICT.


Dear Colleagues,

As you are aware your union posted a list of failures to agree and impasses at the most recent special NSP held on the 9th November 2006. The following list of issues affects ALL CREW across ALL BASES served by Amicus.

Breakdown in Industrial Relations

For the past year your representatives have battled with the employer at every day forums where unreasonable behaviour has been the rule of thumb; imposition sweeps away any chance of discussion, compromise or mutual agreement. AMICUS find it increasingly difficult to engage with BA on any points which are controversial, costly or both.

Merger of Post and Pre ‘97 Main Crew Pay Scales

Amicus, as your union, has addressed this issue with British Airways at each and every pay negotiation since 1997. We support our colleagues on the new entrant pay scales and believe that the benefits of the new entrant starter rates have borne fruit for BA.

It is our view that with the first group of crew directly affected by these scales, having now reached the top incremental pay point, it is appropriate for us to address this issue on behalf of our members once more.

Purser - Junior Swap on 747

This initiative, we believe, speaks for itself and the ramifications for the future are catastrophic. We believe this is the beginning of an initiative by British Airways to remove all but two of the supervisory crew onboard their aircraft.

Promotional opportunities are being removed for our members in BA and this we find unacceptable. A clear example of this can be seen in the imposition of a Purser in charge of the A 321 on EuroFleet.

Preferred Bar Operators

This is a thinly veiled attempt to dismantle our current seniority and bid system. We know from feedback that this system is the preferred method of determining your work position on board.

Your agreement allows you to have an input towards your onboard working position and we are not willing to sit back and allow your agreements to be eroded.

Will this be where British Airways stop YOU from having a choice?

Manchester Base closure

We do not believe appropriate consultation or involvement of the TU side was observed in the decision making process when BA chose to close the Manchester base.

With the sell off of BA Connect which part of the business is next? Gatwick? Heathrow EuroFleet? Heathrow Worldwide?


900 hours

We are all affected by this issue. The increase of unusable 24 XX has resulted in the loss of earnings and roster stability for our members.

BA was fully aware of the introduction of this piece of legislation yet appears to have taken very few steps to prepare for the impact this has had on our crew community.

Downroute report time

This issue affects YOU the cabin crew directly due to the increase in security checks/procedures post 9/11 that now result in our reporting anything from 1.5 hours to 2 hours before departure. BA has identified that the cost of this increased time being adsorbed by you, the crew, could amount to anything between 6 and 14 million pounds per annum in saved payments.

YOUR cabin crew agreement state clearly that you are on duty one hour prior to the scheduled departure time.

EG300

All parties accept that this process is not working to its fullest potential. We believe it is being used as a disciplinary tool as opposed a supportive mechanism to improve attendance.

Fixed Links

The trial that was conducted at Heathrow approx 2 years ago was proving unsuccessful, and was suspended due to the imposition of a single purser in charge of the A 321. Crew’s refreshment breaks were affected and now it is being revisited as a cost saving to BA. We believe this proposal will contravene certain aspects of the working time directive.


As you can see the list of disagreements is not exhaustive but at the present time BA has resisted all of the approaches made by your representatives to resolve these issues. In conclusion we would like to offer BA the opportunity to enter into meaningful and productive discussions to resolve the issues mentioned above. Should BA fail to respond to this request within 7 days from the date of this letter, we will have no option but to consult with you in a more formal manner.

If you have moved or your details have changed, please let the offices know so we can keep you up to date with developments.


Yours sincerely,



Amicus Cabin Crew Committee.

PAX AGENT
Dont worry i am sure you will be enrolled and will be able to vote yes!
it is confirmed that our BASSA reps have been escorted out of LGW and LHR BA premises, with the full support and applauds of their members present!
I think this situation is unacceptable
strike is inevtable! as most of us as BA crew will vote yes!!
let's bring it on

Just For Info...
 

TO: All cabin crew

We recognise that this is a very difficult time for cabin crew and it is important that you have the opportunity to air and share your views, ask questions, and get honest and open answers from me and my team about any issues that relate to the strike ballot.

From 15:30 today, Thursday 21 December, you can do this on a new online Cabin Crew Strike Ballot Discussion Forum.

This forum gives you the opportunity to ask a question or air an opinion. Other crew members can add their views to yours, creating a discussion 'thread'.

My team and I will be looking to answer your questions online and contribute to the discussion. We will be watching out for new posts during office hours seven days a week during the Christmas period, and beyond. We will answer as many questions as we can, and as soon as we can, recognising that this will depend on how busy the bulletin board gets.

This forum is available for all cabin crew to use. Common sense rules apply – we will not censor content because we do not like what is being said, but we will remove posts that are defamatory or abusive.

The forum is easy to use, and can be accessed via ESS from home or overseas, as well as in the Compass Centre.

To get to the forum, either:

Log into ESS with your BSAFE password and follow the "Cabin crew strike ballot forum" link in the Crew section). If the link above does not work use https://my.baplc.com/login.do

Don't use the ESS forum
 

BA managements are obviously ****ing themselves by setting up this ESS cabin crew strike ballot forum, BASSA has its own forum for its members on www.bassa.co.uk the ESS forum is biased and has only been set up to try and Brainwash crew into thinking Simon-Telling-Lies and Mark Lotsa-Hassell have the crews best interest at heart, they have not, If they are committed to working with the trade unions why have they kicked BASSA out of the Crew report centres? If you could work on an hourly rate, which will mean a huge pay drop, imaging you would have to work around a 12 hour day just to earn the same ammount as a Lunch allowance, If you don't stand up to Willie Walsh that is what his next plan is, Dont let him get away with it. VOTE YES

And there was me thinking BA had dropped the hourly rate proposal. Still if it was anything like the SFG hourly rate of 2.40ish per hour you'd have to work almost 3.5 hours to earn the same as a breakfast allowance, which is, ooh, a little less than the time it would take to do a CDG and back that would earn you a breakfast allowance. If your maths is that good I'll have 16 beers and 4 red wines from the crew purchase and I'll leave the 17p I owe you in your drop file.

public support
 

Guys,

I have read the pros and cons of possible industrial action being discussed on here. If you want to win you will need public support and the backing of your passangers. This is crucial. From what I have seen of your pay scales you are doing quite well. I am a cop and earn £2000 per month. My brother in law is a fire fighter and gets £1800. We do 40hr weeks, work nights and weekends. We are both aware that we get paid more than nurses who have to endure dealing with total nightmare people in casualty departments all over the UK. If you were to strike I believe you will not get public support at this time.

I am not advocating you let your management walk all over you but if you strike and loose you could suffer badly. I went out with an LHR WW girl a few years ago. She was intelligent and one of the smartest, quick witted people I know. A fantastic advert for you and your company. She worked hard for her money and deserved it. However, there are many who are envious of your position within the airline industry. You are an elite bunch but I bet the company could fill all you're jobs, with other airlines qualified staff within two weeks. They would not get the same quality that you DO give the company but do you think they really care.

Whatever you decide to do good luck. You will always have my admiration and support thanks to a fantastic time with one of you're colleagues as mentioned above.

Crazy! - do you think striking is actually a better option that actually getting management to hear your views?

Yes! Hurry up and get in whatever it takes, as you don't want to be on the wrong side of your colleagues if it does happen.

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

We fight fires onboard the aircraft

We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to insult or demean anyone or any persons chosen profession. ;););););););)

How many times a year do you use the restraint kit?
A raging warehouse inferno is not really the same as an oven fire. Lets be honest, you only get a days training in how to put on a smoke hood and discharge some BCFs into an oven, lav, or behind a panel then a refresher every three years. It's stretching it a bit to compare yourself to a firefighter.
Whats the big deal about doing it all over the WORLD? The aircraft could be somewhere over Scotland or somewhere over Africa, you still have the same resources on board. Sure you have first aid training, a medical kit (only half of which you can use), and an AED, but you also have the back up of fully qualified doctors and nurses at the end of the phone 24/7 and the first thing you do when the situation looks iffy is make a PA for any medically qualified staff on board. Why bother with that if you are better at dealing with these things than a nurse?
I think you are pushing this comparison thing a little far, especially as the fire training isn't actually any more complex than what I did for my Boy Scouts Firefighters badge (honestly, it isn't, and I did that when I was 14. Had to put a real chip pan fire out too!).

Carnage

Well said, but I must criticise your CRM, mate.

Don't you know that if you criticise BA CC they will require so much TLC or they will be so stressed out that they will need a 'lack of crm payment'. As for what is seen in routine SEP tests, well, say no more, it will be alright on the night, I hope!

About time some teeth were introduced into recurrent testing, imho.

public perception
 

I really appreciate you saying this and you can see my thoughts on Crew above. :ok: :) :ok: :)

The basic point I was making though was that you will not get public support. Without this you will fail if you strike. I would suggest that the vast majority of the public do not think you perform the role of a police firefighting medical expert. Please do not think I am being critical. Its just an observation and I still enjoy flying with you boys and particularly you girls.

Boy in Blue,

I understand what your saying I was making a lighthearted comment. :)

CM,

Where to begin. It would however be a waste of my time as you are obviously set in your opinions.

Carnage Matey, what's your problem? We are all aware that we are paid better than most airlines, and have better conditions, but what's so wrong in us wanting to keep up those standards?

We have obviously made a life for ourselves based on our current earnings and working conditions, so if they're taken away from us, there are some of us who won't be able to pay the mortgage anymore, won't be able to pay off our loans etc, etc, etc.

If I ever have to fly with you I think I'll off load myself! You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder about something. Just get over it!

To everyone else...Good luck guys in what ever we decide to do and here's hoping that we will still be able to keep what we have!

P.S. Carnage Matey, what do you feel about the pilots pension issue??? Bet you're gonna fight for that hey? We all want the same thing in the end...Just think about that next time you feel like going on one of your little rants.

Sarah is correct in what she says. However life has moved on with far to many competitors offering the same or cheaper fares and better levels of service. I regret the passing of a BA of the 70's and 80's but that was the last time I recall us being the best and selling what the customer wanted. Whatever our views may be we will either accept change which must amount to loss of monies and conditions or find a proper job. Our case is not helped with CC always moaning and groaning about how complex and trying the job is, when we all know it is easy therefore make the most of it. How quickly we forget BA connect and their demise.

Well Paid?
 

Excuse me? Without wishing to stir up a hornets nest, I'm full-time WW LHR crew on new contract. If I bring home £1800 per month, I'm over the moon! Only cleared £1066 this month (no leave, full-time). Whilst it's not always that bad, it very often can be. My average is about £1600 at the most after tax.

Taking more than a weeks leave is not an option. I'd loose to much money for lack of flying and my pay would drop beyond financial survival.
I live in fear of being sick as the loss of pay is again, way too much. My basic if I don't fly isn't more than £890 per month!

Even a lovely £1800 a month doesn't go far when you have dependants, a mortgage, a car, running expenses of a car, inflated utility bills and council tax, insurances, food (one must eat). I'm wondering what else Willie would like to take from us? If they succeed, I simply cannot afford to continue working for BA which I desperately don't want to happen.

The amount of 24 hours I'm now getting on my roster are also a financial killer. I'd get more money if I were a cop or a fire fighter - whom incicentally, also aren't paid enough. You guys do an amazing job. I admire and appreciate your dedication so please don't think I'm having a go at other peoples occupations as I'm not. Just don't think it's a bed of roses at BA. :=

This is not a 'poor me' thread. I love flying. I love my job at BA. I love the crew. I have fun at work and work extremely hard, but my point is, is that if WW wants to take more off people like us, there's no future. This is my third major airline, and it's the worst pay. I was earning more money (pro-rata) 10 years ago at EK!

As for getting the pax on our side, perhaps consider what you'd prefer on board your flight to JFK when you've paid a fortune for your club world tix? A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job? Because that's all that BA are going to get when they don't value what they have! :uhoh:

This thread has been the only place I've been able to find some valuable info so thanks to those who have provided it. :ok:

Nothing at all. I've never suggested you should take a pay cut, just that you should do some more sectors per month for that money instead of spending so much time sitting around at Compass.
Nobodys talking about taking money off you. BA only reintroduced the hourly rate idea when BASSA demanded a huge pay rise by moving new contract pay scales to match the old contract ones. The hourly rate proposal has now been withdrawn so who is threatening a pay cut?
But you have flown with me, and you didn't offload yourself. It's very easy to charicature people who don't agree with your view as "cabin crew haters", especially in an anonymous forum. The reality is that perfectly rational people, who have a fine relationship with the people they work with, can disagree with each others views and can certainly disagree with the BASSA propaganda. PPRuNe is not the BASSA forum, and here we are allowed to mention the working practices of cabin crew and BASSA without being accused of appauling [sic] CRM.
Damn right, just like most of the crew on my trip yesterday who don't like the idea of Willies pension raid on the staff. In fact, just like BASSA too.
Untrue. If you wanted to continue uncompetetive practices I could almost bring myself to support you, based on the principal that we need better than the average cabin crew to maintain our brand differentiation. The reality is that you not only wish to continue your uncompetitive practices, you want to make them even less cost effective by increasing everyones pay! Thats the reality of the situation. You can accuse me of ranting all you like, the reality is that you simply don't like people telling you the truth. I'd like you to provide value for money for BA. Is that too much to ask?

Get Smart,

I really sympathise. I just hope that aspiring CC will see the new contract for what it really is: cr@p!

Eventually things will turn against WW. I just hope that the awareness of the whole situation amongst CC is as good as on this forum.
I think the best thing to do is talk about it on your trips... and get those votes in!

All the best


C-T

CM,

Here is an interesting link.

http://www.futureairlinepilot.com/salaries.html

If you compare the VS and BA salaries for say a LH captain I'm sure you can deduce that a captain max salary at BA is GBP29 776 pa more than at VS.

I'm not denying you what is rightfully yours but that is a big percentile difference.

If you are so convinced that the company needs to stay competitive by cutting away at cabin crew t&c's maybe they should cut back Flight crew t&c's to be more competitive.

We are not asking for more than what we have now. We are only asking not to lose what little we have left.

I am sure you will come up with some clever, witty, clearly opiniated reply but you are entitled to it as you have mentioned numerous times before.

Like I said I know you guys deserve your terms and conditions. Don't begrudge us ours.

Yes very interesting, particularly as it was last updated in January 2004, which is very nearly three years ago. Since then Virgin have had a pay rise of nearly 30%, which puts their top Captains pay at, oh what a surprise, virtually the same as BA! Also their Captains are only contracted to fly a maximum of 750 hours per year, not the 900 hours that BAs pilots are contracted to fly, not to mention that it takes 24 years to reach the top pay point in BA, whereas Virgin Atlantic haven't even been in business 24 years. So I guess that makes us fairly competitive. Like I've said before, it you want to examine out t&c's bring it on. We are benchmarked, we can show you exactly what we cost in comparison to other airlines and it's the going rate. Can you say that?

By the way, you are asking for more than what you have now. You are asking for the new contract pay scales to progress to the old contract pay scales. Asking for more than you have now is a central part of BASSAs ballot.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Merging the old and new contracts in your eyes might be asking for more but there should never have been different rates of pay for people doing the same job for the same airline.

You would feel the same way if you were paid 50% of another employee doing exactly the same job as you. Alas you don't else you might be singing a different tune.

As for the going rate of cabin crew. I am earning less now working for BA than I did working for another airline. My choice I know.

As I said before this discussion with you is pointless. It is however interesting to see your keen interest in the CC T&C's. It must be awful having to work with people you so clearly despise.

From a public point of view, I'm sure most people will not support BA cabin and flight crews' overpay and current conditions! However, in their place, most people would want to keep the easy money given and would be liars to say otherwise. That considered, I'm not convinced a strike will achieve much other than more public inconvenience. BA's last 3 years of disruption -for whatever reason - is now as regular as the disruption seen with Alitalia, for example. The disruption, togther with a main hub that cannot cope with the current number of flights (waiting for a gate after 12 hours flying etc) and BA's very poor punctuality can only serve to permanently damage the airline's reputation.

I think we know the crew will strike, and so good luck to them. However, they need to think carefully about the timing and should aim to hit the heart of BA business for maximum effect, i.e. Premium travel. If the Monday morning premium longhaul traffic is dented, rather than half term family holidays, BA will soon react.

As for Carnage Matey, he seems to be a very bitter driver.

Not in my eyes, but in the eyes of anybody numerate. You are asking for an increase in the rates of pay for anybody who stays in the job more than 7 years. That is an increase in pay, no ifs, no buts. Whether somebody doing the same job ets more is neither here nor there. Thats the contract you signed. Striking for more is striking for a pay rise.

As a community I think you really have to get over this precious sort of behaviour. It is a stock repsonse from many that if somebody doesn't support you it is because they despise you and wish to persecute you. Well it's wrong and its just a way of burying your heads in the sand and refusing to discuss the issues.

As stated previously several times, BA flight crews pay is very competitive. Please extend us the courtesy of actually reading the thread before chipping in with uninformed comments.

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

Another poster who doesn't bother to read the thread. If you would like anybody to take you seriously jerry then pay attention. Flight crew are not ballotting the company for more. In fact perhaps you would like to tell us what 'more' we are currently asking for? And once again, BA gets up to the maximum legal flying hours per year for its flight crew at a very competitive rate which even the management do not dispute. So please, if you can't be bothered to bring something worthwhile to the debate then go back to planespotters.com where people might be interested in what you have to say. Take traveller5 with you.

Unfounded rubbish. Please quantify your claims.

"A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job?"

The problem is that SOME passengers prefer to fly a carrier who has more of that sort than your breakdown of BA CC... and sadly an increasing percentage of customers fall into the self same category, even if they have carried the VP attributes into middle and older age :(

Air travel has become too much like a bus nowadays, combined with dropping standards and ... ;(