BA MEETING 7th DECEMBER (UPDATED 8th DECEMBER) Thursday, December 07, 2006
Today BASSA/T&GWU held an important meeting with our side being led by Steve Hart our Regional Secretary and the company led by David LeBrecht Head of Industrial Relations. At the start of the meeting Steve Hart confirmed his conversation with Amicus officials the previous evening, that they too shared all the same issues as BASSA.

The meeting was held in an attempt to resolve our many differences and the serious breakdown of our industrial realtionship with BA. We went into the meeting with open minds but we have to report back to you now that if we had any doubts about the need for an industrial ballot then BA's manner and the words they uttered, have completely obliterated any lingering doubt.

In this meeting Mr LeBrecht accused BASSA reps of 'not representing the membership' and of 'winding up the crews'. He then claimed that you were all 'happy and delivering excellent cabin service'. We responded that you were not happy, but angry, frustrated and determined. He patronisingly disagreed.

All this perfectly illustrates what is the fundamental problem in the relationship between the TUs and BA Industrial Relations. To accuse us of not representing you, when we hear from you everyday how the crew are treated by many elements of BA management is an insult. It is BA who are out of touch with their workforce, not us.

It may interest you to know that since the orange flyer landed on your doormats, over 100 non new entrant crew have joined BASSA determined not to miss our ballot - also over 1000 have contacted us with support and ensuring their correct addresses are logged by us. These facts alone show that we are doing something right in fighting YOUR corner.

BA then put some issues of their own on the table, their wish list included, wait for it - they now want all cabin crew to go on hourly pay! That says it all - the ballot remains on course.

Other quotes from BA (Mr LeBrecht)

"I feel sorry for you as a Trade Union as perserving and improving conditions within British Airways is no longer a realistic expectation"

"If the employer was that good you wouldn't exist"

"It's unrealistic for crew to expect promotion" said in relation to PSR switch upper deck

"We, (BA), will not tolerate a position where a Trade Union says NO"

"I don't know why we're here....these discussions are a sham"...this was his opening gambit

"Sometimes you may not like the answer...we are still going to do it"

BA then wanted to discuss their own agenda:

Disruption agreement and operational alleviations
Hourly rate
Holiday pay (lack of)
IFS business plan
NSP seating

In conclusion, not only did BA refuse to address any of our issues they introduced some extra items of their own including the very unpopular and already rejected hourly flying pay instead of allowances.

Even the most hardened rep was quite shocked at BAs complete lack of interest in addressing the issues we have between us. Then to introduce an item that they know is universally unpopular with Cabin Crew was beyond belief.

I think by now, if you read Mr Lebrechts quotes, you will be left in no doubt how BA regards your future. His words have certainly bought home to us how vital it is WE stand united and firm against BAs plans.

YOUR support has been over-whelming so far.

YOU are giving us the strength to take the fight to the company. KEEP IT UP!

Well said twisted!! We need to be united here. As the very first post on this thread says, The moderators will forgive me for opening a new thread, but I cannot stand the fact that BA love us to feel like two (or more) companies!.

Glamgirl, I understand why you're wondering why we are making a fuss over losing a purser off the 747, one of the reasons is that promotion on our fleet comes around once in a blue moon (with my date of joining, I am looking at 10-15 years), so losing a purser off that aircraft would leave less proportion of pursers needed on that fleet, so would prob have to wait for another 5 years on top of that.

I know that the CSD position is seen as a none working position, I can count on one hand (when we still operated all 9 routes at LGW) the CSD's that didn't help with the club or W/T service, esp when we operated that flying caravan that is the 3 class!!!

Don't forget, LHR EF, LHR WW and us guys at LGW WW were not actually balloted by any unions to go on strike over the t&c's now being endured by SF LGW. If a balloted had been actioned, I personally believe that we would have voted in favour of action.

I love my job and I enjoy my current t&c's as it allows me to live my life the way I am happy with financially and I would like to carry in doing this. If things change, I will have to reconsider doing the job I enjoy so much.

I think the issue at hand at the moment is that we have two very inflexible, quite arrogant parties at both ends. BA management at one, BASSA at the other.

Now I AM a BASSA member and will be voting YES to support industrial action. This is only based on the three issues currently being balloted on: Pensions, merging of old/new payscales, Purser removal and changes to EG300.

However, something that does annoy me with BASSA is the melo-dramatics that they go on with. The wording in their emails, the dramatic text messages they send. I mean, sound professional for gods sake. Please DO keep us updated with the facts. But please stop the emails and text messages that sound like they were written by the scriptwriters of 'Days of our lives'. I think the quotes mentioned by the IR manager which BASSA reproduced are really bad. But I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall and witnessed what came out of the mouths of BOTH parties.

I just want to know the facts.....in full. I want to know exactly what BASSA proposed, exactly what BA proposed, what BASSA said they were prepared to accept and what BA said they are prepared to accept.

I also think it would be ignorant of BASSA to pretend that EVERYONE is happy with the status quo, ie our t&c's. There is a growing call (particularly on Worldwide) for the hourly rate to be looked at again and some more flexible ways of rostering/bidding/swapping our trips which would fundamentally change the way days off etc are generated.

I think BA's next step in this issue will be to turn groups of the cabin crew community against each other to fragment any industrial action. For example, do a deal with those on the new contract and shaft those on the old contract. Or, come up with a deal that will give a huge benefit to one of the fleets but a huge disadvantage to another.

Hi guys....i dropped my application for BASSA into the boxes opposite crew check out in Jubilee house a while ago but still haven't heard anything...I don't want to simply apply again as I may end up confusing some1! lol!
Does any1 have a number I can call for their lil' LGW office as I don't rele wanna go in on my day off and my check in times r wen they're closed!!!


Cheers guys.
Paxy XXX

PaxAgent, check your PM's (not the ones in the office, obviously :} )

Keeperboy, I hear what you're saying about the non-ballot of issues with SFLGW, and thanks for your intented support, much appreciated. It's just that BASSA at LHR surely could've tried helping us a bit more... especially when it comes to the NSP issue...Maybe I'm naive, but I thought that the union would support both bases, and not just where they themselves are based, if that makes sense.

I've always been on the hourly rate, and that in principle doesn't bug me, what does is different crew get different pay for doing the same job (LHR allowances/LGW hourly pay). Isn't there some law against this now? Before I get myself a reputation of being a miseryguts, I'd like to add that it feels great sitting down route, having a glass (or more) of wine and getting paid for it (it's only enough for a small glass per hour, but still...)

At least it's not all as bad as some other airlines, but that's another thread altogether:}

Open Your Eyes!!!!
 

Well, here goes, i haven't been on here for a while but i have been keeping up to date with things and i was determined to let the proverbial dust settle before i got on a soap box that really i didn't have any right to jump on.

i've now been with ba for 6 months, in fact wlits trained me (and an excellent job he did to!!) and fbw i think as well (is that right wlits?) i did my first lh the other day (my god i love it!!), so i can't say if it will make a change in my £££, however at my interview i was told a would take home £500 min flight pay.

i came from another airline so i know that bar money and flight pay can take months to kick in, but i have to say that i have realised £500 more or less for the last 3 months so when people keep saying the money is pap for new starters then to be honest i haven't really found that, if you are motivated enough to bother to really get to grips with carmen and they way she works you can get what you want right from the start.

for those of you that have been here for a while i understand that you think things are rubbish here, but the reality of the situation is that they are worse than before but better than anywhere else, this 3 crew moan? i think it works fine, there's no meal service in et and there's triggers for high club loads (which i think need a bit of adjustment) so really it just means that whilst you are at work you have to earn your money rather than floatin around getting in each others way and spending half the flight eating you way into another dress size or reading that latest gossip column. i can honestly say that i've never had it so easy, but conversly because of the cut backs, those of you who have been here a while have never worked so hard!

this isn't a dig at the veterans of dan air, city flyer, eog or just ba for a few years, but i must say that all it looks like a people complaining about actually working whilst at work. sorry guys.

the strike, i think that people should get over this whole lhr/lgw divide, we have more fun, they have more money, the new lhr xfers have said as much, sorry if any lhr guys disagree. but we are one company, this isn't a playground so lets stop bickering between ourselves and stand up to the bullies, i think that ba are relying on the fact that a huge majority of new entrants at lgw aren't in the union and a large section of the lgw community aren't strike minded. everyone needs to join a union and be counted. if someone isn't happy we have to support them, it's as simple as that.

lhr i'm sorry but wake up and smell the coffee, you are overpaid for what you do, and there's too many of you, it would be great to keep everything the way it used to be but welcome to the real world, one that changes every day. the company has had to change and we've had to follow suit but for a long term viable future we need to do more. the hourly rate? so you'd loose money but do you really think that what you do is worth all that cash? i know nurses and teachers that earn less than some of you guys, we are technically an unskilled service workforce, there isn't anyone in that sector that get's anything like what we get.

the world has changed, lgw might not be the blueprint for the future at lhr but there's lots of things that may well be, lgw is the future? quite possibly, the finance of the company dictates that we do it cheaper so why not make us do more? £££, pensions, psr on the upper deck, non of it affects me at the moment but i go to work every day with people whom hold it very dear so i will stand with them and will do whatever is asked of me.

i'm genuinly sorry if people don't like what a new starter with a mouth has to say, and i hope people don't take offence, i love my job, my choices and my work mates, i'm happy with my pay and really, i'm happy with my roster, maybe i'm too easily pleased but some are too easily p**sed off!!

love you guys!

BAnewboi, I hear what you are saying.

But, imagine at LGW SF if next week BA turned around and said 'we are changing the hourly rate to £1.25 an hour, and taking away two of your days off per month'. Perhaps that put things into perspective. That would be something YOU signed up for that was being changed without any negotiation.

Like you, I also left an airline with crap conditions (bmi) to join BA some years ago.

The reason thousands of crew leave airlines like bmi, virgin, easyjet, ryanair etc to join BA is because of the working environment, pay and terms & conditions. I think I could literally count on one hand the number of crew that have left BA mainline to join any of the afore mentioned airlines.

For once there seemed an airline where terms, conditions and pay were decent. I'm on the new contract, LHR WW and yeah the pay is good but not out of this world. I too, thought like you. WOW! Why are these people complaining???? They have it MADE!

I have to be honest. I am a different person at BA. When I was at BMI I felt no loyalty whatsoever to the company. I went to work with no motivation, no enthusiasm. I'm sure that came across in my interaction with passengers at BMI. At BA, I am happy to go to work. I am happy with the money I earn. I am happy with the way I am treated. I put in 110% and I think this comes across in the way I am in the cabin.

In a little way, I like to think that my attitude might contribute in a small way to the industry record profits we have made. £500M last year.

This is all until very recently.

There are so many issues Banewboi, and while few people are concerned by all/many of them, there is usually one sticking point for everyone.

For me personally, I am not really bothered with the pension issue or the UD Purser issue. The issue I have with BA is EG300. After hefty negotiations, BASSA and BA came to an agreement on a process for managing attendance. After that has been signed of and implemented, BA has just fundamentally changed it.

Now, EG300 hasn't been something that has (luckily) had any impact on me so far. But I thing the issue at hand for me is, if BA think they can come to an 'agreement' with their workers and unions, and then change them at their will, what will be next? The way our allowences are generated? The way our rest is calculated?

You see, you knew exactly what you signed up for when you joined BA. And so did I. It's not that I am asking for any more than what I have. I would also certainly look at any ideas that BA have for cost saving that would provide both a benefit to the company and the crew.

But with our new managers, the problem seems to be they don't understand the notion of 'give and take' or 'negotiation'. It just seems 'take take take'.

There are around 10,000 crew at LHR. Most of us belong to BASSA. And most of us are keen to protect what we signed up for. And with the current environment of 'non negotiation' from BA, there seems few other options available to us.

I will support any strike that the union ballot's over purely out of loyalty and the desire to make things better but before a strike is called i think people must realise is that when you negotiate everybody gains something but everyone loses something aswell and i think many are unwilling to compromise.

Can i just say that us pilots are more than a little baffled at BASSA's timing and thinking on this ballot. Strike action normally has a long prior negotiating history and as far as we can tell this all came from a show of hands at a meeting (bound to be the most militant crew). I believ BASSA have told you that pensions are involved, i dont think this can be the case Negotiations are not complete and you cannot legally ballot until a failiure to agree, which has definately not happened yet (that said if and when it does we'll see you on the picket line)

I've just picked these from the first BASSA newsletter thingy from earlier. With the reasons why most of the nigels think its a bit quick to ballot
If this is true about the upperdeck purser then fine, but i havent seen anything apart from from BASSA that BA have imposed this. That said, long term, do we really need 5 supervisory crew on the 747? I think the upper deck purser is the wrong one to go myself. But if the promotional prospects were lost i think some form of extra allowance/training for upper deck crew would be good. As BASSA agreed to go to CSM and Psr at LGW on the 777 it does make it harder to justify the extra Psr ar LHR.

As for the CSD bit this is classic scaremongering. BA have never suggested this and ts certainly not a reason to strike now.
Great spelling. But as i understand it the Location and some of the standards element of your hotel agreement was negotiated away a few years ago. Hence you're in Midrand we're in Sandton in JNB. And Club Quarters/ Grand Hyatt in SFO. BA havent made moves elsewhere as it is cheaper to keep us together. If your hotel agreement already allows this how can you strike now?
Well then noone will take it and BA wont lose any of the more senior crew, Thats more BA's problem than BASSA's, were not talking compulsory redundancies here.
Well the talk of NRT is utter rubbish, there is no shorter routing we already go the quickest way. The other 2, well T5 will result in shorter report times, so i dare say some flights will become nightstops and LR payments will be reduced, same applies to us(we'll most likely lose 4th man to HKG and GRU amongst others). But they can only reduce the trip length if its in your industrial agreement already (SFO will be similar duty day in T5 to SEA now), nowhere has anyone suggested changes there. So can you really strike about doing something thats already in your agreements?

Old/New pay rates : Very good aim but why now? Its never been mentioned before.

EG300 : With you 100% :D

By bringing so many issues to the table at once BASSA have just given WW an excellent opportunity to try and break the union, this is clearly now the plan (I dont think it was before the Ballot was announced) and thats why he's brought in other issues such as the hourly rate etc and started the dirty war in negotiations. By bringing so many items in you have to decide which ones will you come back to work for, because you cant win on them all.

The other thing is, will this unite the crew? I cant see Gatwick striking for these reasons at all (it would be illegal for most of them : secondary action) The SH crew wont strike for LH issues and vice versa, I suspect thats the reason New/Old contract was included otherwise its pretty much all LH. I suspect most of the European crew wont strike and I suspect BA will be prepared to let it run a few days whilst crew lose money/get disrupted and start trickling back to work. Theres high stakes here.
Good luck whatever is decided.

HotelMode you raise some really good points. many of which I have asked myself.

I think that BASSA is trying to throw as many 'issues' into the pot as possible to gain maximum support for the ballot. For example, the pension issue may only be of massive importance to those that have been in BA a bit longer than say 4 or 5 years. So, add the 'merging of new and old contracts' into the equation and you also have the backing of those with less than 4 or 5 years experience (obviously new contract).

BA have stated that they wish to remove a Purser. I do however (personally) support this position. As you have mentioned NO industry or company in 2006 can justify 5 'managers' for 10 'staff'.

What I have a problem with (on the BA side) is this: they have so many means of which to communicate with us. Our home address, ESS mail, crewlink etc etc. They could spell out every single issue that BASSA has said 'will happen' and give a black and white guarantee that those issues are not being discussed at the moment. And yet, so far anyway, BA chooses not to do this. Now in my eyes, this means one of two things. 1) BASSA is right. Or, 2) BA WANT a confrontation with the cabin crew to test their resolve and union support.

BA do things like propose the issue of an hourly rate, yet refuse to give us the figures per hour which can only raise the eybrow of the crew community. Again, I would support an hourly rate IF IT WAS THE RIGHT RATE. But without any figures it could be £1 p/h or £10 p/h. How are we meant to work out if it is a good deal or not? All we can rely on is BASSA's reccommendation.

Why not make a statement to crew that box payments, ETP, STP, 5 sector days etc are not in the pipeline (which are all things BASSA are claiming are). BA's silence on the issue really is quite deafening.

Saying that, I do really hope that some middle ground will be found. I hope the moderates from both BA and BASSA will come out of their holes and start some reasonable NEGOTIATION.

I believe that Willie is now concentrating on turning the various fleets/contracts within cabin crew against each other in order to ensure a total walk-out doesn't happen. For example, do a deal with those pn the new contract in terms of basic pay, yet introduce an hourly rate etc etc. As you mention, I think there will be many tricks up his sleeve.

Superboy....I agree with you. In the current times the only thing that would move LGW crew to strike is the proposed NAPS deal (which stinks) and considering that SFLGW is a very young fleet i.e. lots of people on probation, most of us on BARP anyway (which stank from day 1 but we had no other choice) and that the only people who are affected by the NAPS changes are the few ex-DANair birds ;) and ex-CityFlyer/EOG who haven't left for LHR yet. So I would say that whether LGW strikes or not will make little difference to the outcome of the strike!

I have always said that we should be united as a whole workforce and that BA has worked to divide us, however we have always tried to feel closer to LHR and have always been kicked in the rear. It would be time for an effort from the other side, really.

As for the changes BA wants in the T&C for LHR I agree that some are not good. I do not like the idea of losing a purser on any LH aircraft (for LHR crew's info we in fact will have to fight to have 2 pursers on a 4-class 777 as we have only 1 at the moment and don't see that changing!) but at the same time 2 senior crew on a SH aircraft seem one too many in my opinion, especially when the one sitting at the front doesn't have a specific role in the service.

As for the hourly rate.....stinks but everyone else does it and BA know it! They'll try all the tricks possible, even making your life at work miserable if needed be. There are thousands of crew who do without meal payments etc and they do the same job in the same way as LHR crew. It's cheaper. This way they buy 2 cabin crew at the price of one (just like deals in tesco's). This is called good economy!
They will get that I am so sure. Strike or not. Sorry for being negative but unfortunately it's how it feels at the moment. Management stink, they were hired for a reason, which is not because they are nice and not even because they are stupid.

FBW

PS: banewboi I am not a line trainer.....sorry! I think I know who trained you though, I actually started at H6 just as she was due to have her baby :)

If LHR crew want our support, get the union to sort out SFLGW ongoing issues first as a show of good faith. They are already ongoing and not proposed as all the issues detailed in the newletter are.

Our issues are: NSP entry (its been ongoing for years!) and Breakfast allowance for Longhaul (we're flying the routes, should be getting free breakfast, but not!).:mad:

Sort them, then you'll see some LGW support.

Not before:=

I have not read all of this thread but I have read enough of it to understand what its all about. I dont post on this forum very often but on this subject I do have a few things to say.

Firstly, 'hotelmode', I have had a Cabin Crew manager on board my last two trips and both confirmed that the upper deck purser is set to go on feb 1st and that the intention is to have the crew down to one purser and one csd by the end of the year OR to remove the csd and have just two pursers.
They also both told me that there would therefore be 400 pursers surplus - some they hope, will accept severance, some would take part time, some would have to work as main crew but retaining their purser pay scale, and some would be promoted to csd. Now perhaps it is me thats nuts but do the last two options really make any sense at all? Pay someone to work down? what cost saving does that achieve? Pay to promote to a position that theyre considering taking away? hmmmm clever .

Meanwhile 40 new managers have been employed within IFS to 'manage' the pursers!!! you couldnt make it up could you?


Now to all of you at lgw who feel neglected and cant see any reason you should support this strike and vote yes:

I can only say that after 18 years at BA I know what will happen. If BA walk over us now and change terms and conditions at LHR I GUARANTEE that it wont end there - your terms arent great now - but do you honestly think that it ends there and that they wont come back to try and take even more away from you ?

Showing BA that we are divided now opens up the flood gates for the future and you will not be safe. BA will achieve what they want: Staff who do not come here for a career but who come to fly for 2 or 3 years and then leave... and people who are that temporary can be worked to death and walked all over with no concerns whatsover from their employers, so watch out.

Perhaps we at LHR didn't take enough notice of what was going on when your contracts and terms were being developed - do you think that not supporting us now makes things better? Two wrongs do not make a right, people make mistakes and learn from them.

Well I dont think CCM's know any more than we do, they're notoriously unreliable. I just keep coming back to why now? Willy needs a industrial victory, the pension is clearly proving too difficult as they keep back peddling. BASSA are just stepping straight into the firing line. This way WW can attack a fairly divided workforce who historically will always look after number 1 when the chips are down (LGW is a case in point) maybe force a strike (and with EG300 it cant be a cowardly mass sickout this time) and probably win most of the important concessions whilst giving in on others. Saves the company cash and comes out looking all butch. Meanwhile he quietly complies on the pension which would have brought the whole company to a standstill for a long while preventing further trouble. You're a much easier target than the whole airline combined. BASSA's communications are so low on fact and so high on emotion I think youre talking yourselves down a very big hole.

Theres also a ridiculous amount of talk about things BA might try in the future, and not much about what the reality is NOW, all to get support for a strike. If BA really do propose 1 CSD and 1 Psr I'll be with you on the picket line but they haven't. Your reps are using a maybe, possibly threat of future demands to justify this strike, is that not a bit odd?? Its seems very much like the famous "45 minutes" for Saddams WMD to me a technique into scaring you into a made up conflict. Nobody talked about striking 3 months ago, it was only when the most militant turned up for a branch meeting and had a show of hands, and now they are doing their best Daily Mail impersonation to scare you into a fight that i suspect the reps are relishing.

Youre right Hotel Boy. BASSA reps have nothing better to do than sit around formulating plans to strike. I mean look at how many strikes we've had this year. Oh no wait .... we havent had any.

Never mind, we can always just lie down and take the steamroller treatment, instead of attempting to stand up for ourselves hey?

Its very easy to sit in the "Ivory Flight Deck" and look down and pass judgement on the "little people" but we have been and still are in a struggle not to try and gain anything better but just to maintain what little we already have.

If that takes industrial action to achieve then so be it. Unfortunate as that might be, I cant see another avenue for us to choose.

Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!

:ugh:

If you're not with us you're against us right? Very constructive.

We're all being battered by BA at the moment all i'm suggesting is you take a CALM look at the issues. You're getting all over excited about what MAY happen in the future. Removing 1 Psr from 1 Aircraft Type is not "being steamrollered". If you actually read what i wrote i'm not saying BA's right but by lumping everything together BASSA may be playing into WW's plans and I dont think anyone wants that.

Some of the problem is that theres no option for BASSA to use other than strike. At least BALPA can work to rule for a while to help negotiations on their way.

And its a bit disingenuous to put things like "little people" in quotation marks when its not a quotation.

Disappointed.

I like your post, you sound very reasonable.

It's also nice for someone from LHR to finally admit that you guys may have dropped the ball at LGW.

Your also correct that two wrongs don't make a right.

I absolutley argree.

Which is why it would be wrong of LHR not to stand by us when our T&C's are being erroded away RIGHT NOW (not just planned to happen like LHR).

You do mention that BA will not stop where it has with SFLGW. TOO RIGHT, they're trying to take our breakfast allowance as we type!

We need your support so we can keep it.

SFLGW is the benchmark BA is trying to get LHR to. If you let it get dragged down even further (it can't go much further!) then LHR will get dragged down even further.

Support SFLGW and we will support LHR.

I urge all LHR crew to speak to their reps to not let the bar slip any lower at SFLGW.

The worst of the damage has always been done. If you let it get worse you only make it worse on yourselves.


The other bone of contention I have is NSP entry.

Now I can see the reason that LHR crew would be pissed off with the removal of the UD PSR. The fact that it slows down promotion and transfer I can see is a big motivaor not to get rid of it, especially if promotion to PSR is up to 15 years on WW.

This is also the reason that EOG/EFLGW was not allowed into the NSP earlier as well.

If you look back a page or so you'll find a post from Yellowdog concerning an announcement concerning SFLGW entry into th NSP, which I had on very good authority was due at least last week.

Now of course the result of this would in theory have a similar effect to the removal of the UD PSR eventually down the line.

What really concerns me is....no announcement has happened.

If it's the LHR unions putting a spanner in the works AGAIN for WHATEVER REASON, LHR will be thin ice asking for SFLGW crew support in this fight.

Guess we'll see....

Let's hope it isn't the case for ALL BA crew sakes.

Firstly I didnt say anything about you being for or against anyone. But you do seem hell bent on ensuring a constant theme of them and us.

Secondly this ballot for strike isnt just about one item (the removal of a PSR from the upper deck). It also includes, among others, the following items :

Breakdown in industrial relations

Pensions

Application of EG300

Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates

Purser Junior swap

Fixed links

'Preferred seller'

Man Base closure

900 hours

Downroute report times

So its not just one sticking point as far as the cabin crew are concerned.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.

As for your last remark, about my supposed grammatical error? Quotation marks may also be used to set off specific terms or words and not just direct or indirect quotations. And for reference, the word disingenuous, infers insincerity. And that's just plain rubbish!

As a footnote, I am not at all naive when it comes to office politics. I am sure there are plenty of things that go on behind closed doors that we do not hear about. I assure you that I am not one to blindly follow what the union says nor what the company states.

However, based on my own personal experience of both sides in this conflict, I have to say I agree with the current stance of BASSA. If we do not stand up now, where does it end? Complete disregard for our current terms and conditions? Destruction of any future ones?

I hope not and as I said earlier time will tell.

"Breakdown in industrial relations" So you're ballotting because you don't like the management? So how exactly do you get to win on this issue?

"Pensions". Again, no failure to agree as yet so quite possibly illegal to strike on this one.

"Application of EG300". Can't fault this one.

"Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates " Signed away at the end of the '97 strike and it's not coming back. The whole point of the new contract was to save cash, do you think BA will tear that up and perpetuate having the highest paid crew in the industry?

"Purser Junior swap ". Do we need 5 supervisors for 10 staff? Really?

"Fixed links ". Errr you don't do them any more and at T5 there'll be no CATs for you anyway.

"Preferred seller". Work hard and make yourself more cash?

"Man Base closure" Its a shame but I didn't see anyone striking over the BHX base closure.

"900 hours ". Being run by BA exactly in accordance with the CAAs requirements. Nothing you can do about it.

"Downroute report times". What exactly are they doing to those? You already can report before the flight crew and the aircraft isn't going anywhere without them.

This seems to me, to an extent, to be BASSA reps throwing their toys out of the pram because they are receiving a taste of their own medicine. For years they have just said 'No' to BA and IFS management have capitulated.

"Want a grand for slipping in Macau during SARS? No problem"
"£200 each for working one down? Be our guest"
"You want to decide when we'll work one down for cash? Thats fine"
"Double allowances for a trip change on the day? Take it away!"
"Want to get off your trip cos your a minute late. No objections here"

Now that BAs management have finally learned to say 'No' to the BASSA reps they all start throwing a hissy fit and complaining about a breakdown in industrial relations.:rolleyes:

Carnage Matey has brought up some very valid points. Some current terms and conditions are incredible - "destination" payments (ie turning up for harder flights), working down payments (get the CSD on the end of a trolley in the back cabin!!!), double allowances for changes in trips, 5 supervisors on 747s (!!!), going sick whenever and wherever and not expecting any come back......the list goes on! And now, everyone is upset because people are starting to put a stop to this nonsense and are even suggesting the crew did some work.

I and most of the public will not be behind the crews. Did the 1997 strike put a stop to the new pay scale? NO.

In the past when British Airways was not making money we have been willing to cut back and find ways of saving money, the Management have taken and then taken some more, but to help the airline survive we have given and got nothing in return . Now British Airways is making healthy profits, with a high share price and are about to impose Hourly flight pay which will mean massive loss of earnings, if they want to save money shouldn't they start at the top, with Willie himself and Half his salary, like he is trying to do to ours? If we where not making money, then of course we would accept anything to keep our airline running, but when it is just Greed that is fueling this, why should we accept anything, and any saving from the reductions in salary will of course be passed on to the management as huge bonuses for their hard work in shafting us. I think people who are commenting should find out exactly how much we actually earn because if you knew the truth you would be very shocked at how little it is.

But I know the truth and a brand new entrant will take home £1600-1800 in a typical month, which is not a poverty wage by any measure. Your post, Rach G, is why the cabin crew don't have a great deal of credibility sometimes. You talk about giving things up to help the company, but really it was only the 16th crew member on the 744, and that came at a time when we were downgrading the capacity of the 744 from 395 to 299 seats! Meanwhile BASSA still extorted all the aforementioned payments from BA. Now people spout on about how the hourly pay will cost them thousands of pounds per year. It won't. It's an hourly rate from check in to check out. Not an hourly flying payment. People are getting all upset because BASSA say its bad but nobody can actually say how much BA are proposing to pay them, and very few dare to calculate what its actually worth overall and state that maybe, just maybe, it might be better for them overall.

Carnage you've just shown your ignorance, £1600-£1800 thats a good month, and with the cost of living in the south east that is a poor wage. Are you saying we don't deserve a decent salary? The wages at BA maybe slightly better one month or another than at some other Airlines but it is still an average wage, when the Airline is making huge profits and dishing out Massive bonuses left right and center to Managers, and employing even more Managers to Manage ARI's, why should we take a pay cut, BA wouldn't try to put us on Flight pay if we where going to make more money, its only going to benefit BA, not us. Just look at Single fleet LGW there flight pay is less than £2.50 per hour yes its from check-in to Check-out but its still terribly short of what they should be earning for the long hours and hard work they do,they haven't benefited from Flight Pay neither will LHR crew. Do you think BA have gained the reputation it has from employing the types that would work for peanuts in a burger bar or do you think it will maintain its reputation when it is paying peanuts, our first and club passengers will be happy being served by someone who wouldn't even get an interview at a No frills Airline? They'll save money now but lose alot more in the future

Well said rach-G

Aaaah I am showing my ignorance am I? This is why you lack credibility. £1600-£1800 is not a good month, its the average month. Don't tell me I don't know, I've seen enough of the payslips to know. And thats a poor wage is it? If you are averaging £1600 per month you would have to be earning £22800 per year in a normal job to achieve that. If it was £1700 per month then you'd be on £24400. If you can manage £18000 then you'd need to be on £25900. Compare that to an average salary of £22400 and I'd say you are paid pretty well for a low skill job that requires less than 6 weeks of training. There are plenty of people in the South East earning less than that and getting by.

The issue is not even that you are paid well (which you are for the job you do). It is that BA do not even get value for money. 5 supervisory grades for 10 main crew on a 747. A CSD with a non-service role. 2 supervisory grades on a 767. Less than 40 sectors per month from EF crew. Hugh standby requirements to cover crew walking off flights. BA pay you more and work you less than any other UK carrier, yet you have the audacity to claim you are hard done by?

Just a gentle reminder please folks - this is clearly an emotive issue for many and passion is understandable. However, comments such as contribute little to the debate except unpleasantness and a general raising of the temperature. For example, the above phrase might be re-written as A little old-fashioned I know, but you get the point I'm sure.

Play the ball, not the player, and the world will sort itself out just fine!

Carnage- Whilst day in, day out passenger service may be "unskilled" i'm sure our flightcrew would not be prepared to fly with us if we were unskilled. How many unskilled workers would be able to deal with a incapacitated pilot, fire onboard, use a defibrilator and many other incidents we are trained for?

I am one of your flight crew Rach, and I know full well the skill levels of the crew behind the flight deck door, both the good and the bad. I also go to SEP every year and see just how good/bad some of you are at using a defib, fighting a fire or locking an incapacitated pilot in his seat.

Carnage....I will probably attract the hatred and anger of all the LHR crew here for agreeing with you (somehow I agree in principle but have different reasons) for most of the bassa/ba issues you've illustrated above....
HOWEVER, as for SEP, I agree standards vary a lot, but I have had SEP with colleagues of yours (flight crew) who were absolutely useless too!! In particular one of them was supposed to play the captain during the fire drill and he was a total disaster! And he's paid as a captain on the 777!!! This doesn't mean that all flight crew are useless at their job though, does it?

Please do not underestimate the role of the crew at the back, they have their skills which differ from yours and that's partially why you're doing different jobs. Most do fly in their own free time too you know (I used to see many colleagues of mine at goodwood/shoreham/popham etc) so have good flying skills as well but would never do your job for any money in the world (like me!).

We only say what we're told to say in those SEP scenarios blame the Instuctors not the pilot.

I've been the captain during the fire drill too. Its a contrived affair, sitting in a room being told by an SEP instructor when to give you your instructions to make the drill realistic for you. Neither the scenario nor the time frame are realistic and that exercise bears about as much relation to his command competence as his karaoke skills do! Remember we only know what the communicator tells us! Still I am glad that you have dared to put your head above the parapet and question some of the hot air that is bellowing out from BASSA HQ at the moment. I bet nobodys doing that on the BASSA forum!!!!!

Carnage mate, I don't know who's payslips you have seen but £1600 - £1800 per month, take home is definitely not the average for a new starter on short-haul. Perhaps at LHR WW, new contract, it would be fairly average, but on short-haul the average I would say is £1300-£1400.

I think the issue really at hand here, is with many of our terms and conditions, yes, they do seem out of date. And yes, they may be hard to jusity to someone who is not BA cabin crew. And yes, these t&c's probably do invoke anger in some BA work forces whom don't have an effective union and whom have seen their t&c's deteriorate over the years.

Most of us know we don't need 4 Pursers and a CSD on the 747. Most of us know we earn more than the average UK cabin crew member and have more time off. Most of us know the record profits BA has been earning.

However, in any job, in any company, in any industry there will always be one company at the top end of the scale in terms of pay and t&c's and one at the bottom. I mean do those working at Barclays get paid the same as those working at Lloyds? Do those working at DirectLine get paid the same as those working at Churchill? Do pilots or engineers working for Aviance get the same as those at Aer Lingus? I don't know the answer to any of these, but i suspect in every example, one of the companies enjoys significantly better pay, terms and conditions than the other.

And this is probably down to the effectiveness of their union - management negotiation. Unfortunately the NEGOTIATION bit is what seems to be lacking at BA at the moment, both on the management and union side. BASSA has a reputation of being staunch and inflexible, so BA bring in staunch and inflexible management to deal with them. The result? Well what is being witnessed right now actually.

The problem for us now is, we HAVE to vote YES. And if so, see it through to a 'strike'.
I feel a little like I am being held by the bol*ocks by BASSA. I don't want to vote to strike on any of the issues we are being balloted on (which is ONLY pensions, Purser removal and merging old/new contracts) because I don't think we have reached the end of the road negotiation wise.

BA will never back down totally on pensions (at a £500M per year cost to keep the pension status quo they would rather a strike any day). We know we can't justify in any way, shape or form 5 senior crew members on a jumbo. And the old/new contract scenario EU legislation will take care of soon enough anyway.

However, now that BASSA and the hundred odd members whom attended the last meeting have decided this vote is to take place, if there is not a big enough YES vote, when much greater battles come (WHICH I BELIEVE WILL COME SOON WITH THE MOVE TO T5)) we will have no sway what so ever with management.

Personally, I am more concerned with EG300, loss of box payments, loss of STP, loss of ETP. But we aren't being balloted on any of this. Yet, when all this does come to the table, if there had been a dismal YES return on the current issues, management will be able to steamroll whatever changes through because they won't fear a strike based on the previous (ie current) industrial action.

Get what I mean? It is a catch 22. I don't want to strike and don't really believe strongly on any of the issues we are ACTUALLY BEING BALLOTED ON. However, I will vote YES to keep the union in a strong position for when the rest of the stuff comes up. But I AM pis*ed off that BASSA has voted on a ballot now, instead of waiting closer to T5 opening and when more of our t&c's are up for grabs.

I'm not sure that slanging matches between BA flight and cabin crew help.
BA flight and cabin crews seem to have an icy history anyway - perhaps envy on each side. From an outsider's point of view, and having read a lot in the press and on the net on the BA issue, it seems that both the pilots and cabin crews want, want, want. Times have changed and flying is a glorified bus service nowadays, but the flight and cabin staff seem to be kidding themselves otherwise, and cannot accept that they will have to work both harder and longer to justify the low prices their company are offering (£199 to JFK return for me next Feb).

Congatulations, you got one of the cheap, cheap tickets to New York. However thats not the kind of ticket that keeps BA in business, its the 70 Club passengers up front paying several thousand pounds each that pay the bills, so turn right at the door and head right to the back of the aircraft little man.

PS I wouldn't be too smug about your ultra-cheap ticket to JFK. February is at the tail of the window when the cabin crew might strike and slap bang in the window when the flight crew couls strike, so you may well find us want, want, wanting while you're stuck in the terminal in JFK. I, on the other hand, have booked my tickets on another carrier.

Just received this email from a friend of mine....


British Airways Cabin Crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for strike action. This could take place anytime from the end of January through to the end of March but a strike is most likely to happen sometime in February.

British Airways Cabin Crew would like it to be known that they absolutely do not want to go on strike. As Cabin Crew, all we want to do is our very best to look after the travelling public, conveying each and every one of you as comfortably and as safely as we possibly can from A to B. Obviously there are occasions when circumstances conspire against us, both for you the public and us as your crew, but it is often these very circumstances when our passengers appreciate most that they are with a British Airways Cabin Crew. This is borne out by us constantly exceeding every customer service target British Airways have ever set for us and also the clutch of industry awards we win every year - including this year where thanks to our hard work and the votes of you our customers, we walked away with the Best Cabin Crew award.

However, things are not all rosy with the current management of British Airways. Historically, we have always had a proper business relationship with our management. As with any commercial environment or business scenario, there has to be an appropriate level of give and take on both sides in order for anything to work. However, our new management team have a lot of ‘new brooms’ and wish to make a lot of changes. They have approached these changes by refusing to speak to our representatives, declaring their intention to introduce the changes without discussion and openly stating that “we will walk right through you.”

These changes are both to our working agreements and to our employment contracts, including but not limited to cuts in pay, no pay increases at all after a certain time, cuts in promotion opportunities, less rest between flights, removal of working position choice and BA ignoring the wording of their own sickness policy when applying it to Cabin Crew. This certainly has health and safety implications.

These changes go beyond simply working harder in a changing commercial and security conscious environment. They will affect our lives outside work, our take home pay and most importantly our family life outside of work. They will also have a knock on effect to you, our passengers.

We are still trying to get our management to talk to us but they are telling us “we have nothing to talk about”. Unfortunately at the moment we are not seen as people - and we are just like every one of you, doing the best job we can to earn a living and go home to our families, we are seen as expendable staff numbers. And whilst on board, we see you going about your business, travelling to see friends or going on holiday with your families, our current management see you simply as pound signs in seats.

At the moment, a strike is the only way we have of standing up for ourselves and forcing our management to open proper discussions regarding our contracts and our future employment. This can all be avoided with the application of a reasonable attitude and a dose of common sense from British Airways management, but anyone who followed the recent ‘cross wearing’ debacle will know that those qualities seem to be more lacking, the higher up the British Airways management tree you climb.

Should a strike happen and should you be caught up in the chaos it will cause, British Airways Cabin Crew humbly and sincerely apologise to you and ask for your patience and understanding whilst we try to get our managers to speak to us(!)

If you have non-changeable travel plans with British Airways from January to March next year, you can write to our chief executive Willie Walsh at

British Airways plc
Waterside
PO Box 365
Harmondsworth
UB7 0GB

Or e-mail customer relations using this link:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel...l/public/en_gb

Please urge him to treat his employees properly or simply provide him with your thoughts on British Airways current management style.

Thank you for your time

British Airways Cabin Crew

Seen it before. Given that the decision to ballot was based on a show of hands of around 100 people (less than 1% of the cabin crew at BA) its rather presumptious to state that BA cabin crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for a strike. I predict a marginal majority for industrial action on a very low turnout, followed by a big sick out like in 97.

My friend and his wife are both BA crew. One is old contract, joined early 90s, the other is new contract joined around 99. They are on married rosters, fly together on WW, live in a reasonable house in one of the more affordable suburbs of Maidenhead. Two cars, a couple of holdays each year and are saving for their wedding. Doesn't sound like the hard luck story so many proclaim here. He even has time and money for a round of golf, both at home and downroute, and plays rather well. I once dated a new contract stewardess for some time. Thats how I now what a new contract monthly take home pay looks like. I know lots of crew on a social basis from when I worked at a small base, and regularly stop to chat in Compass with crew friends from my short haul days.

You see Anti-Ice, I know all about what you earn, how many sectors you work, how many hours per year you fly, and thats why I can come on here and state facts. Thats right, facts. You and most of your colleagues can only resort to attempting to ridicule these facts and post lots of emotional outpourings in an attempt to obscure the truth. Which, coincidentally, is also the way BASSA work. It's much easier for you to stick your head in the sand and accuse anyone who criticises you of being anti-crew, having a god complex etc etc than to argue your case. Only a couple of posters have the nouse to look at the facts of the case and say many of your agreements are unjustifiable. That is different from saying indefensible, but I don't expect you to understand the subtlety.

I wish your facts were true wrt how much I earn.

I'm not BA - I'm charter.

However, that doesn't stop me raising a couple of points that I think you should consider:

Most crew in airlines other than BA would very much like to have BA money and T&C's: They aspire to be like that "one day". This in itself doesn't mean much, except that BA are viewed as being "better". Accurate or not, the perception is that BA earn more and work less. Waving individual payslips around in here won't change that perception, and if it goes to a strike, percption is king. In other words, in a strike, don't expect too much sympathy and support from other CC in the industry.

Th real issue, if striking (or threatening to do so) relates to public perception. If the great British public supports such action, you'll win, and if they don't, you'll lose - it's really that simple. Now ask yourselves just how much sympathy and support you expect to receive, and behave accordingly.