How is it on BA Mixed Fleet, are you enjoying it?
 

Hi Mixed Fleeters,
I don't know if any of you read pprune but I was wondering if you are enjoying working on Mixed Fleet.

I realise it is early days but is it as you expected it to be?

I hear rumors about how tired some of you are with only one day off after some long haul flights. Is this the norm or is this unusual?

I hear that the new Haneda route is going to be a Mixed Fleet route. Are you pleased about that?

I personally am worried for you all because that is a long flight and would be very hard if you had just done a Las Vegus and only had one day off after before being required to do the Haneda. Are my concerns unwarranted or are any of you worried too?

Anyway just wanted to hear from the horses mouth and not galley fm on all your veiws about if Mixed Fleet is all you had hoped it would be.

Thanks.

I am enjoying MF so far, the atmosphere on board is far better than it ever was when I was a temp on WorldWide. I actually feel like I belong onboard and don't have to justify myself to the rest of the crew for my existence.

Yes there are a few teething issues regarding several things, but hopefully we can work those out, like you say Betty, it is early days. I'm looking forward to Haneda, and I am surprised that we have gained so many routes as quickly as we have, but I for one am certainly not looking forward to doing a Vegas followed by Haneda, especially with only one day off inbetween, it'll be a killer!

Thanks for your reply Welshboy, I am glad you are enjoying it.

Yes, I think it was bad the way some of you temps were treated by some crew, some of them did not have the sense to see that we have often used temps in the past and it had nothing to do with the dispute, other than BA not wanting to put you all on the, then, current contract.

Anyway I hope it is good for you and you get speedy promotion and all your teething problems get sorted.

Good luck.

Las - Hnd
 

I would have thought it would be highly unlikely that this combination would be rostered given the days off entitlement after a longhaul trip, there are plenty of shorthaul routes on/coming to MF.

I know these combinations are flown by Flight Crew but that is primarily because they CHOOSE to, it's not the company being cruel!

WB1982, glad that you are back in BA and enjoying your new position.

Flaps33,
That's the whole point, on mixed fleet they just get the legal minimum and bid for their days off and trips.

It is possible that if your bid was quite general or you made a mess of it you could easily end up with that combination. You could also of course specifically bid for days off after each long haul flight but the bid system being used by them is the same as the one used by us on E/F and it works by trying to give everyone 60% satisfaction and therefore what you ask for is not always what you get.

Already some Mixed Fleet crew have had a run of 3 Las Vegas/Denver flights in a row with only one day off in between each.

That's why I asked the question because I wanted to hear facts from actual M/F crew and separate it from galley fm.

Just wanted to check it out with one of you, is it true that you don't necessarily get a day off after a NBO trip.

I have read somewhere that a M/F crew member said that she had been rostered the following, NBO trip, BUD there and back, NBO trip, I day off, Bud there and back, Las Vegus trip, 2 days off.

So no days off after the NBO! Is this right and is something being said about this because you will all be so tired after this kind of rostering.

Also one crew member has said he has been rostered 96 block hours in one month and is already worrying about what will happen when he reaches 900 hours before a 12 month period has elapsed. Is this normal rostering for M/F?

I'm afraid to say it's all true re. the above! We are literally working to the bare minimum rest. Luckily I don't have a Nairobi on my roster, but I do know of others who have it like you mentioned Betty. We can only hope that crew are feeding back there rosters to their managers to look at because, as you say, this kind of rostering really can't go on long term. I have 143 hours rostered in January, so I am very concerned about reaching 900 hours pretty quickly!!!! I love being on Mixed Fleet, but something does need to be done about the rostering as i know a lot of crew are pretty unhappy with it.

Out of interest flight crew have a limit of 100 flying hours per 28 days.
Is this not the same for cabin crew? If it is the case, 143 flying hours is a bit excessive during a 31 day period... anyone have any idea?

JPM's have an absolute limit of 100 flying hours in a 28 day period.

I believe the Mixed Fleet contract allows:
180 duty hours in February

The limitation of 100 hours in 28 days applies to Flight Crew only and is an ANO limitation. Cabin Crew hours are limited by the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations in the first instance which has absolute limits of 2000 hours in 12 months not exceeding 900 hours flight time. The current scheme duty hour limit for a BA Cabin Crew member over a 4 week period is an average of 190 hours and an absolute maximum of 210 hours so this roster is well within what's allowed. Mixed Fleet may have different limits as shown above.

That's not to say that it is a sustainable roster in the long-term, I've been told that about 4 or 5 years ago BA Cabin Crew employed at Gatwick had a change to their rostering designed to get more out of them. It did but at the expense of many crew reaching the 900 hour limit, being unable to fly and consequently crew shortages resulted. Much of BA's Gatwick program had to be sub-chartered to several operators (Astraeus and Monarch spring to mind) for several months, the problem was compounded by crew resigning as they couldn't afford to live on the Gatwick basic wage.

Welshboy1982

May I ask how many days off you have on your Jan roster?

Thanks Welshboy.

Student in debt, you correctly refer to the start of single fleet at gatwick.

The difference this time is that new fleeters can be used for ground duties when 900 hours is achieved. And at worst they can be stood down with no pay. The 900 hours is calculated on a rolling basis so a couple of weeks in the terminal or at home unpaid should reduce the average.

I had 9 days off rostered, although I've ended up with 10 days off now after picking a trip with an extra day off from standby.

PC767 - we will not be working in the terminals. This is not what is meant by ground duties. Ground duties refers to training, sep and such like. Not working in a terminal. I'm sure if we were grounded for whatever reason, we probably could do, in exactly the same way that the crew on WW and EF do right now.

I am really enjoying myself. Never flown before so have nothing to compare it to, mind.
Did my first LH flight to LAS…. Knocked my socks off how tired I was once I’d landed… then we got stuck for 5 nights – so I got some sleep and had great fun! :ok:
I like SH best – I originally applied for EF so knew I would. So far all the crew I have met have been very supportive and good fun.
My roster this month is ok… I have a busy week with NBO, PRG, BUD and LAS with no days off in-between so will be very tired. I have 10 days off this month and only 2 days of sby. Also similar to the example you used. But I have emailed my manager to see what they can do. I have finally worked out how to bid so will have some nice PRG and BUD night stops in Feb with any luck : )
As a general rule we are having 2 days after LAS, DEN but none after NBO - Which I can’t seem to get my head around. Time will tell I suppose?


Anyway, happy New Year and safe flying!

Welshboy, I don't know if I hope you are correct or not. It would seem that at present 900hrs is going to be achieved before a rolling 12 months is achieved. Not working in the terminals would leave BA with the worst option - that being to stand you down with no pay.

Have BA provided a written interpretation of Sect 5 of the Mixed Fleet contract, sub headed, Job title, duties and flexibility. In particular the comment '...it is an express condition of your employment that you agree to undertake any other duties or roles that the company may reasonably assign to you from time to time on either a temporary or permanent basis. These may include a ground role at the company....'

I think the second paragraph of section 11 is very illuminating.

Basically it says that if the 900 block flying hour limit is increased by regulatory change, then that is automatically incorporated into your contract.

Currently, changes are being proposed that would increase to 900 to a significantly higher number yet tbd.

With other groups within BA these are contractural and would require renegotiation, BA has circumvented that with MF.

Clauses such as this have been around for years, just no one has bothered to scrutinise them until now.... My initial temporary contract in 2008 stated -

"Your duties include all work normally undertaken in this role and other duties that the Company may require you to do"

"You may be posted to another fleet from time to time"

"You may be posted to any location worldwide on a temporary or permanent basis..."

"If you fail to succesfully complete any training... the company may terminate your employment"

Do LAS and DEN appear at the end of your blocks of work and NBO at the beginning? Given your example line of work they are using your unacclimatised on the 2 European trips but as you probably don't need the max FDP and are getting 3 local nights rest in a timezone 2 hours wide (assuming you get 8 hours between 10pm and 8am) you are acclimatised for the LAS giving you the max FDP possible. You could equally have a LAS or DEN at the beginning of a block and work a similar pattern.

Whilst this looks great on paper and is probably termed "efficient" rostering I imagine once the fatigue reports start rolling into the CAA it will be changed fairly quickly. From the CAA publication The Avoidance Of Fatigue In Aircrews

Welshboy,

My contract did not, it was more specific about work and flexibility and noted that changed and pratices were to be via the world wide scheduling agreement and collective bargaining.

(That, partially, was what Unite took BA to court about during the imposition dispute. Was the agreement incorporated into my contract. The answer wasn't straight forward but did conclude that onboard crew numbers were not incorporated.)

So, have BA clarified the terms of Sec 5 or have you decided that BA will not ask you to work in the terminal because the terms are just the usual small print that doesn't matter? What will happen to you if 900 hours is achieved sooner rather than later, in your opinion?

PC767,

I don't mean this to sound scathing towards Cabin Crew but what use would they be in terminals outside of times of disruption? There's little they could do without the correct training...

At LGW when we nearly all maxed out hours after 10/11 months we were assigned days of 900 hrs GWK (Ground work). Nobody actually did any ground work despite my contract alluding to the fact that BA could require me to should they so wish, this I believe is because I wouldn't have had the first clue what to do other than pointing people in the right direction (and even then I think in 3 years I spent about 10 mins in the North Terminal departures hall).

I don't mean to sound argumentative but I think in the long term BA will see it more in their interest to provide sustainable rosters to MF, but initially Man Power planning (always BA's weakest point) and scheduling are testing new ground - even SFG's MOA has more restrictions than the new MF. The same thing happened at LGW; year 1 was a bit of a disaster (even the then head of IFS admitted so) but they learned from it and maxing out hours is a rare occurrence now I believe.

Juan,
Your point about fatigue is very well made. I have had a number of interactions with the CAA medics, and they are serious people.
Whilst they have a sense of humour, getting the words right is important.

Matt101 - I agree with you, I ( and probably most other crew ) would be completely useless in the terminal.... I could tell customers where WHSMiths and Boots is, but as for anything else...

PC767 - Having asked several managers, CSM's etc, they have all said we will not be working in the terminals.

Matt101. Iaccept your point, however, SFG do not have a stand down clause in their contracts, which would be a concern.

Welshboy1982. No further debate then. I hope you are correct to take BA on trust, although the word of a CSM is meaningless, they know no more than you or I. It is further up the chain where the answer will lie. Best wishes.

Thanks so much to elldee and Welshboy for explaining your rosters.

I think as time goes by BA will tinker with things to make them more sustainable over the longer period because when you add the Haneda trip into the boiling pot, I do think some of you might feel true fatigue if you have just done something like a Las Vegas and not had much rest after and keep repeating similar patterns.

However am friends with one of your Mixed Fleet Managers and she told me that she thought you would all adjust the way you bid, giving more care to the days off you request and she thought that, that would sort out the problems, we shall see.

Anyway wish you all well and I hope for your sakes that you enjoy your time with BA. I still love my job despite all this unrest at the moment and truly hope things will settle down and we can all co-exist together as one big happy team. Anyway in my dreams!!

I'm also on MF

Good points - most crew generally very friendly and supportive, from the CSM down. Many with prior experience as SCCMs and trainers and an asset to the company.

Routes - some interesting routes coming online, not all nightstops.

Change - fairly easy to feedback problems and get them resolved reasonably quickly

Promotion - hopefully at a more reasonable pace than on existing fleets.

Bad points / points I hope will change

Pay - my pay for a full month's flying in November was on the low side - just under £1000. This doesn't really pay my bills and if this doesn't change I will have to leave.

Rostering - unrealistic. I have been rostered LHR-LAS-LHR (1 night) followed by ONE day off, immediately followed by another LHR-LAS-LHR. Next month I have an NBO (1 night) immediately followed by a shorthaul sector. I am shattered most of the time!

Positions - "Future Talent Crew" FTCs - sit in BA Purser positions and carry out most of the BA Purser duties (including completion of assessments on other crew) yet are told they not in a different grade and as such will not be paid any differently (excepting a paltry £100/month extra which means little).

I am optimistic that these things can be changed but I think it's important BA realise that if the pay is not upped, people will leave - rapidly. In fact, I have flown with two crew that have already left after 2 months - one for Emirates, the other for Virgin.

Let's hope the Company responsds constructively to our concerns.

Bettygirl - I think bidding might be part of the problem. Too many people give different opinions of what to bid for, how to bid, and obviously nothing is guaranteed through Carmen. But i can't bid specifically to say "Give me 2 days off after every longhaul trip".

Welshboy,
I agree, I told her that as far as I was aware the bidding was the same as E/F and it was not that easy to bid to get days off after a particular trip, it's just not that kind of a system!
On E/F we only do short haul so the impact of only one day off after a block of seven days work is not as bad, yes we would be very tired but we don't have time changes to deal with like you.
I think at LGW, on the single fleet, they trigger 2 days off after each long haul trip because initially they had the same problem when SFG started but I just can't understand why BA have not learnt from their experience down there.

Thanks Smell the coffee.
I think you are right the money is a problem when trying to work and live in the most expensive part of the UK in particular. I don't think BA will have a problem attracting crew to the job but retaining crew at these low levels is hard.
I said to this Mixed Fleet Manager that I thought the salary was very low and she said 'but they will be taking home 18k when you add in their 2.40 ph' but I reminded her that you have to eat and drink using quite a bit of that 2.40 allowance so it can't really be included like that!!

Anyway hopefully it will improve for you all. I can see you are all very keen and I truly hope the job ends up being all that you want it to be.

Welshboy/Bettygirl/Elldee...

I am just trying to get my head around current MF rostering structures...can you confirm (given what has been said) that the something like the following is possible?:

M: LHR-NBO
T:
W: NB0-LHR
T: LHR-BUD-LHR
F: LHR-PRG-LHR
S: LHR-LAS
S:
M: LAS-LHR

I am a bit unclear about the NBO trip, as when I use to do them (prev worked on LH, left company but had an offer to work back on MF) they were night sectors both ways. I am not sure if you can squeeze min rest in between?

Thanks for the clarification.

Well the sector out to NBO is a day sector and the one home from NBO starts on the Tuesday evening and lands back Wed morning ( using your example) so you would be getting one local night rest (wed) but no day off before the Bud.
I don't think you could squeeze in two short haul as in your example because you have to have one day off after 7.
So if you removed one of the short haul day return trips from it, it could be a M/F roster but I don't know how common this kind of rostering would be.

I will post my roster up until the endof this month for clarification. I am currently on days off and annual leave which amount to 9 clear days off.

TU 11 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 12 JAN LHR-LAS
FR 14 JAN LAS-LHR
SA 15 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 16 JAN OFF DUTY
MO 17 JAN LHR-BUD-LHR
TU 18 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
WE 19 JAN LHR-NBO
TH 20 JAN NBO-LHR
SA 22 JAN LHR-PRG-LHR
SU 23 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
MO 24 JAN OFF DUTY
TU 25 JAN LHR-PSA-LHR
WE 26 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
TH 27 JAN STANDBY AT HOME
FR 28 JAN OFF DUTY
SA 29 JAN OFF DUTY
SU 30 JAN LHR-NBO
MO 31 JAN NBO-LHR

Hope this is of some help or gives you more of an insight. Im pretty sure this is a typical MF roster...

Thanks Elldee,
The 17th through to the 23rd will be a hard slog for you, seven days continuous work including short haul either side of that Narobi and then only one day off after the whole phase!!!!.

Good luck.
I think they will have to do something to change that kind of rostering because that will be a killer.

elldee
That's a tough week! Enjoy your 9 days leave and get plenty of rest. Like the others have said, on SFG and the old mid-fleet changes were made after a few months to make the rostering more user-friendly. Good luck and do talk to us at work, most of us are very friendly! We need to break down this 'them and us' barrier so we can make mixed fleet a better place to be.
OG

Yes, I must say I was suprised when I saw that on the roster.

But you know what, im putting this in perspective (rightly or wrongly). I had the whole of christmas and new year off. One flight then this break im on now. Its not all bad, is it! Yes I will be shattered by the end of that week, but I cant do anything about it now.

Will be interesting to see how Febs roster looks, now I have learnt how to bid correctly! :O

*edited for spelling! Doh!

I agree Ottergirl, I have been making a point of talking to Mixed Fleet crew that I recognise but am also happy to chat to others too.

I think more and more level headed crew are starting to think like us and realise that it is not, at all, the Mixed Fleet crew who are to blame for any of this mess, they are really the victims of all of this and we should all do our bit to make them welcome and help them through this.

I must admit I had my guard up when first going into the CRC - but im always willing to chat - to anyone from any fleet.

I just feel my hat box is a bit of a people repellent sometimes...

Mixed Fleet, welcome to the real world. Most other companies have had rosters like this for many years. That it comes as such a shock to some mainline crews, shows just how far out of touch with reality the cabin crew agreements make BA compared to their competitors, and why these changes need to be made to make BA sustainable in the present economic climate.

I know what you mean Elldee. It does go both ways I think.

I think because you might feel guarded and also the desks are so prominant some of you are also very defensive towards us which is understandable.

I walked past the other day and saw a CSM that I know and she completely blanked me and turned her head away. I was a little shocked but decided to actually go up to her and have a chat anyway and she was fine. She told me she was enjoying being a CSM but that it felt like she never stopped working.

Anyway hopefully with time it will all sort itself out. Lets just hope there isn't another strike!!!!

Windytoo, We will have to disagree on that.

Do you actually fly and have you also ever done a long haul trip followed directly with shorthaul the next day. I don't actually believe that, that is normal for MOST airlines.