There are other aspects of the job which would be relatively easy to improve, but which BA seems to have little interest in doing so, it being mixed fleet rather than WW. For example, free breakfast in hotels, free wifi in hotels, the ability to put crew bags in the hold on shorthaul days...

There is, unfortunately, no such things as a free breakfast!

When BA negotiates contracts for accommodation these kind of things are taken into consideration. If the hotel offers free breakfast to all guests it would be possible to include that for crews.

However most dont and they would increase the rate per room to cover the breakfast and therefore increase the cost to BA.

Same thing goes for free wifi if the hotel has free wifi then the crew get it as well, sometimes BA negotiates a limited amount of free time into the room rate.

Shorthaul crew, to my knowledge, have never put bags in the hold including pilots so no difference for MF.

I don't think thats very fair. BA's interest or perceived lack of has nothing to do with which fleet is involved. WW don't get free breakfast or free WiFi and, on Eurofleet we have been asking to put bags in the hold since the liquids restriction and been told that we don't have the infrastructure. I imagine that LGW have similar frustrations too! MF are not being 'picked on', thats just the way it is!

I understand that WW don't get a flat £2.60 per hour to pay for everything on the trip plus compensate for a low basic salary, when breakfast in some hotels is 20 euros, though my friend may be labouring under a misapprehension. Similarly wifi - if you can pay your mobile phone bill without worrying about an extra £30 on it for roaming charges, why would you care about wifi in the hotel?

Allowing bags in the hold would improve lifestyle for all crew. If the CAA required it, a solution would be found.

Any hotel will negotiate a price for a group of guests to have anything included in the rate - free wifi, breakfast included, a wake-up call from a strippagram, whatever. BA isn't paying the rack rate for the rooms, and no hotel would expect to charge a corporate client who was booking 10+ rooms per day the rack rate. BA hotac department knows that and the hotels know that. Many airlines with lower status and fewer rooms booked per night manage to sort out breakfast and wifi as part of room rates; it's within BA's power, if it has the will.

What I meant about "mixed fleet rather than WW" is not that other fleets necessarily get those things. It's just that WW have had the clout for their concerns to be dealt with, whereas those of MF don't show up on the horizon. In any case, these are aspects of what it is like to work for MF (compared to other airlines where such things may be sorted out) which people reading this thread might find it useful to know before they arrive.

(The significance of "no bags in hold", for those who didn't pick it up, is that the amount of liquid you can take on a shorthaul trip is limited to one of those sealable clear plastic bags, with no container having more than 100 ml .....)

Young Paul

I think you have been misled....

The £/per hour is not to compensate for low pay. It is the way the allowance system works for MF and for all flight crew. It replaces the destination based fixed meal payment that is used in WW & EF. It does means that the same rate is earned irrespective of the destination.

No fleet (LGW excepted (i think...)) gets free breakfast. The company will take it, if the hotel offers it for free, but will not pay for it as crews are paid allowances to pay for their meals. Wifi is similar, but may change with the current focus on the iPad trial. I don't believe that the perceived "clout" of WW has achieved any actual tangible benefits over other fleets.

On shorthaul neither cabin crew or flight crew bags are loaded in the holds at LHR. It is done at LGW on the 737s, but LHR is just not geared up for it especially with the frequent changes of aircraft & crews on every turnround at LHR. Totally agree that this does restrict the amount of liquids you can take on a tour - and that is a complete pain!
T'bug :ok:

... so to summarise, bear in mind that if you go to BA now, your basic salary is low (as in, you will probably struggle to live on it, it is not "market rate + 10%"); from your allowances, you will need to fund all subsistence away from base; if you are travelling around Europe for several nights, you will need to be quite ingenious to take your toiletry supplies. These are things you may not otherwise have considered.

Is there anything that would stop the crew carrying overnight cases to the forward hold and collecting them when they get off the aeroplane? Which I understand happens each time they rotate through LHR? Or are there rules which means that this would cost the airline to load and unload the cases?

What is a "free" breakfast? My previous airline were skinflints - but all UK hotels were on a B+B basis, and if we didn't get B+B on the continent, we got crew breakfasts. Seriously, if a company is saying they will book 10 rooms per night (or longhaul? 18 rooms per day?), and they have ANY competence in negotiation, most hotels would happily include breakfast in the rate. Or was BA keen to shave the last £1 per room off and leave the crew to bear a higher cost because "their allowances cover it"? Most hotels do buffets these days anyway, with lots of the food being chucked away at 10am.

The £/hr isn't just a subsistence allowance - or it would be exempt from tax. It is a productivity payment.

Young Paul

I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with your argument except a bit of trolling......

The rates are available and published. People can make their own decisions. With unemployment rates as they are and the outlook not looking good for some operators; some folk will be happy to get any reasonable job. Sure it now pays less than EF & WW, but there are (several) much longer threads regarding that issue, so I won't repeat.

As do all Cabin & Flight Crew at LHR.

As do 1000 MF, 2000 (?) EF & 1200 shorthaul pilots. It is amazing what people can squeeze into those little bags......

As for hold bags - why complicate matters for the sake of a bigger tube of toothpaste? T5 is almost exclusively container loaded bags. There is a "bulk" hold on all the shorthaul aircraft, but on the A319 accessed only once the containers are removed. The A319 can have a 35 min turnround, we are not particularly good at passenger items such as buggies & wheelchairs, so playing with crew bags will just be a mess. Crew bags would certainly be a low priority. Even on long haul some crew don't trust the baggage system and will take their bags on as cabin baggage.

It is BA, so emmmm... Yes! Always :}

Yes & No. The Tax man is not stupid and applies different rates to the allowances of MF, EF, WW, & Flight crew that recognise the different proportion of the allowances that each group earn v. spend.

Come on Paul. Not sure of you agenda. I'm not not advocating MF as good or bad. I just want the facts that are published to be accurate so that people can make a valid decision. There is no need to spread falsehoods.

I don't think it is fair to have a go at Young Paul for pointing out some things that obviously upset his friend.

The lack of a breakfast allowance is bound to upset M/F crew as at LGW, the crew there, who are also on an hourly rate, do receive it at some destinations and as mentioned by Young Paul, many low cost airlines provide breakfast to their crews when night stopping and this is what he is comparing things with. However I think that the new revised M/F pay scales are higher that those at LGW. The LGW crew do however do longer trips though and therefore clock up higher allowances in general but don't receive the quarterly bonus that M/F crew can benefit from if they hit their targets..

One of the problems you get when salaries are low and crew rely on other payments to make up their wages (and this is the same for all the fleets) is that your end wage is very dependant on the type of roster you achieve! Some M/F crew are probably taking home an ok wage some months but in other months when they don't achieve such a good roster, I expect the money can be tight. This also happens on WW and E/F but as our basic salaries are often higher it is not so critical, however those E/F and WW crew on post 97 contracts can also suffer from low wages if they do not get a good roster or have a lot of leave but the situation is probably more critical on M/F. Of course as mentioned by many on here, there are other people on the aircraft also receiving an hourly rate but of course they have the benefit of a very high basic salary and unlike cabin crew are not reliant on bringing some of these allowances home, so some sympathy for Young Paul's observations would not go amiss.

When we had the 737 at LHR, we were allowed to hold load our bags but that is because it is a bulk loaded aircraft and does not have containers and it was also prior to the liquid restrictions. Even if the Airbus and the 767 were bulk loaded, which they are not, it would not be feasible for BA to organise for us to check our bags in at the long haul crew check-in area and have the extra costs of loading our bags, like they do for crew on long haul flights. As we take our bags to the aircraft we have to go through security, so even if we could load them in the hold, we would still not be allowed extra liquids!!
I personally have not found it a problem as you can buy small bottles of most products nowadays.

It is sad that M/F crew have these, often, tiring rosters but that is why BA set this fleet up, to save them money. I personally have said all along that the wages were too low and I was glad when they were raised.

I do however think that you have a right to say how you see it without being accused of being a troll. That is after all what this thread was set up for, so thank you for explaining how it is for your friend.

To be fair, my friend is immensely proud of BA - working for them has been a very longterm ambition - and I bear them absolutely no ill will. I just would like them to care for their staff so that they want to stay and can afford to!

Oh, and another 2" seat pitch in World Traveller would be very nice, too. It's actually more comfortable on the charter airlines now.... but that's off topic.

I'm Easyjet and as ex GB I remember having the pride of flying the BA flag aswell as being part of the 'family' that was GB. I can therefore understand why many MF crew are incredibly proud to fly for BA but with that comes a lot defensiveness when posters question the MF contract. Let's not beat about the bush, it's not a great contract. It seems that BA have gone from one extreme to the other and the result being that MF is now amongst the worst for real take home pay.

That said, many crew aim to fly for BA and VS and wouldn't dream of flying for a low cost. The former has plenty of glamour (if only it is perceived glamour), nightstops for those that want that and the opportunity to offer 'fancy' service in premium cabins. There isn't anything wrong with that and if people deem that as being more important than monetary reward then that is their decision. However, in recent months MF has lost crew going back to their original carriers because of the lack of money.

As senior crew on a low cost carrier I now wish I had done long haul before joining GB as it is something I now want to do. However, the money is more important to me and I live in Manchester and own my own home so MF is out of the question completely.

It's an individuals decision which fair enough but at the same time it is no point them shooting others down for commenting on the less negative side.

To be fair most of the people shooting Paul Young down are not actually on Mixed Fleet!!

Thank you Betty Girl,

I think you hit the nail on the head, people are allowed an opinion without being accused of trolling.

I can understand BA's decisions, why not create a new cheap fleet, imagine the cost savings which will only get bigger as the fleet grows. We all know that the economy will not recover for many years to come and so making the all important cost savings now may very well protect from future bankruptcy!

Everyone is cutting costs because they have to, that is why friends and people close to me are giving up flying altogether, not only from MF.

Best of luck to all

We may have to have a new thread alongside this one entitled "How is it on Iberia Express?" Looking at what is coming to the IB crew then we have got off lightly with just a new fleet.
IAG approves 2012 launch for Iberia Express
The new world of IAG has arrived in Spain. Thinking that we may be covering a lot of spanish flights when the strikes start!

This is the future for all 'Legacy' carriers.

The LoCos have proved that they can generate huge revenues and profits and can cut the benefits for staff at the same time.

This was why the debacle at BA previously was futile. The exsiting crew terms and conditions are protected and over a period of time the new crew will prevail - if they dont like it they will leave.

It may be that in the near future someone, probably Stellios, will have another go at low cost longhaul airlines and that will move the landscape again.

Welcome to the 21st century of air travel.

The LoCo model has only worked so far with SH. Those attempts to do LoCo LH have failed as businesses. The suggestion that legacy carriers are doomed to fail or evolve into some cheapo carrier premature and I suspect flawed. The days of pampered crew may be on the way out though

I'm afraid to say it's all true re. the above! We are literally working to the bare minimum rest. Luckily I don't have a Nairobi on my roster, but I do know of others who have it like you mentioned Betty. We can only hope that crew are feeding back there rosters to their managers to look at because, as you say, this kind of rostering really can't go on long term. I have 143 hours rostered in January, so I am very concerned about reaching 900 hours pretty quickly!!!! I love being on Mixed Fleet, but something does need to be done about the rostering as i know a lot of crew are pretty unhappy with it.


BUT Welshboy.... is that not the idea.. that the rosters are so tight that they save money paying you on days off... The least amount of time you are off.. they are getting their moneys worth.. its like the old saying.. aircraft only make money in the air.. well crew are same.. So complaining about your roster in not, I assume going to work, as they are legal and saves BA money

I'm also on MF

Good points - most crew generally very friendly and supportive, from the CSM down. Many with prior experience as SCCMs and trainers and an asset to the company.

Routes - some interesting routes coming online, not all nightstops.

Change - fairly easy to feedback problems and get them resolved reasonably quickly

Promotion - hopefully at a more reasonable pace than on existing fleets.

Bad points / points I hope will change

Pay - my pay for a full month's flying in November was on the low side - just under £1000. This doesn't really pay my bills and if this doesn't change I will have to leave.

Rostering - unrealistic. I have been rostered LHR-LAS-LHR (1 night) followed by ONE day off, immediately followed by another LHR-LAS-LHR. Next month I have an NBO (1 night) immediately followed by a shorthaul sector. I am shattered most of the time!

Positions - "Future Talent Crew" FTCs - sit in BA Purser positions and carry out most of the BA Purser duties (including completion of assessments on other crew) yet are told they not in a different grade and as such will not be paid any differently (excepting a paltry £100/month extra which means little).

I am optimistic that these things can be changed but I think it's important BA realise that if the pay is not upped, people will leave - rapidly. In fact, I have flown with two crew that have already left after 2 months - one for Emirates, the other for Virgin.

Let's hope the Company responsds constructively to our concerns.


But is this not what you signed up to... you signed a contract.. and so this is what BA offered you.. The Co started MF to save money, so are not likely to make them better or that is just same as the rest of BA who I believe have better conditions

Flytobuy,

The posts that you have decided to deride are over a year old.

Go troll somewhere else because you are wasting your time.

As you well know the rostering and pay has altered since these two posters posted over a year ago. Whether it is good or bad on Mixed Fleet it has little to do with you. This contract is the only one available to new entrants, so your gloating is not much help to anyone.

All your post has done is highlight how unkind people can be.

Yes, very true Betty Girl.

Fly2buy, FYI.....
Las Vegas now triggers 2 days off at rostering stage as do other USA trips apart from San Diego which triggers 3 days off.
Africa trips now trigger at least 1 day off at rostering stage.
Rio triggers 3 days off.

Pay: Not taking into account host deductions, pay for a full roster can be anywhere from £1100 (if you mostly do there & backs & only the occasional nightstop) to £1700 (with a good roster with 4 & 5 day trips). An average would be maybe £1300-1500.

FTCs now get substantially more than this for the extra responsibilites.

The posts that you have decided to deride are over a year old.

Go troll somewhere else because you are wasting your time.

As you well know the rostering and pay has altered since these two posters posted over a year ago. Whether it is good or bad on Mixed Fleet it has little to do with you. This contract is the only one available to new entrants, so your gloating is not much help to anyone.

All your post has done is highlight how unkind people can be


Betty Girl.. bet your a wonderful person to meet in person.. real class!!!

I am entitled to answer any posts I choose fit.. and have my opinion.. and if you don't like it.. don't read it...

Ah fly2buy

You missing the heady, Pimms fuelled days of Bedfont and instead have to come on here and troll...

Get a life...

To be fair, I find mixed fleet crew (rightly or wrongly) quite defensive of their contracts.

Mixed Fleet BA Routes
 

Hi all,

Just about to join Mixed fleet and wondered if someone could just confirm the routes MF fly seen some stuff in the list but wondered if anyone has an up to date list?

Thanks

These routes are subject to possible future change i.e. it is possible that any of these routes could move back to Worldwide/Eurofleet and be replaced by different routes in future months.

November 2010 - Prague (PRG), Pisa (PSA), St Petersburg (LED)
December 2010 - Denver (DEN), Las Vegas (LAS)
January 2011 - Budapest (BUD), Nairobi (NBO)
February 2011 - Kiev (KBP), Tripoli (TIP), Mauritius (MRU) and Haneda* (HND)
March 2011 - Luanda (LAD)
April 2011 - Atlanta (ATL)
May 2011 - Manchester (MAN) and Amsterdam (AMS)
June 2011 - San Diego** (SAN)
July 2011 - Rio de Janeiro (GIG), Hamburg (HAM)
August 2011 - Phoenix (PHX)
September 2011 - No Route Transfers to MF. BA432/433 AMS (767 rotation) returns to EF
October 2011 - Accra (ACC) , Vienna (VIE), Lisbon (LIS), Paris Orly (ORY), Amsterdam (AMS) all services return to EF
November 2011 - Chicago (ORD) , Atlanta (ATL) returns to WW, MRU moves to LGW
December 2011 - No Route Transfers
January 2012 - Abuja (ABV)
February 2012 - Lyon (LYS), Toulouse (TLS)
March 2012 - No Route Transfers
April 2012 - Boston (BOS)

* New BA route from 19th Feb 2011
** New BA route from June 2011

Which routes on MF have the B747-400?

Going off the BA website, it shows for next year:

LAS, PHX and ORD have 1 B744 rotation each (other ORD is B777)

Also BOS is showing as 2xB744 and 1xB777

Is the list correct or is it likely to change?

Info required on CSM role on board and ground duties.
 

Hi,

I am new to the forum, but not to flying, and I have an upcoming interview for CSM and am curious to know the difference to my existing role in Charter. Does the CSM work a position in First/Business/Premium as I do or are they purely managing the crew/flight as I believe Virgin do? Also, how many days per month are you in the office and what exactly does the mentoring role entail on a day to day basis? I know what the salary is but what does a CSM take home on an average month? How is it down route and are there new routes coming? Ive read lots of mixed reviews of mixed fleet so any info from current CSMs would be appreciated, if I'm lucky enough to be offered the job I'll be leaving my safe, familiar company whom I've worked for almost 24 yrs so I need the full honest truth, warts and all please. Thanks.

Actual salary
 

Hi!

I've just got an offer to join MF at BA and I have read this entire thread. I'm experienced and I have a clear image of the pros and cons of MF and the job is true love for me. But there is one thing that's not really clear. How much money do you actually get each month - is that incl the hourly 2.60 and after taxes are paid? I work in Sweden and don't know the British system that well but I really need to know to see if it's even possible to live in London with this pay.

As it seems when I read through the posts I earned more when I joined a low cost airline in Sweden five years ago and living here is not London-expensive...

So how much do you get after taxes in average?

Well ,basic at the start is £12,000 ie £1,000 per month before tax.If you are paying national insurance and income tax in the UK ,then you will loose about £160 which leaves you approx £840.(you may also wish to pay into a pension in which case this figure will be less).
All time away from base then earns £2.60 per hour allowances,(taxed pretty much as above;well ,slightly less),so if you decide to bid for the longest trips and are successful,for a five day trip you would earn £250 before tax.If you were lucky enough to have four of these trips in a month you could earn another £1,000 before tax.
On the other hand if you decided to bid for manchester there and backs,and that is all you did for a month,then you would only earn in the region of £270 allowances before tax.
Hence your takehome pay at the end of the month could vary between something around £1,050,going up to £1,700.Averaging these extremes out you could realistically look to taking home £1,400.(less, if you wanted to put something away in a pension). :ok:

Are there 5 day trips ?

good point.....MRU used to be but that has just gone to LGW.

And in real hrs terms the longest trip would be about 3 1/2 days duty would it not ?

well 3 1/2 days duty pay generally equates to a 4 1/2 day trip ,does it not.MF is growing and continually picking up new routes.Examples given previously were really best and worse case senarios .So ms Moo what would you suggest as to being a realistic take home pay ?

Well they are not best and worse case senarios when the best doesn't exist . My friends have a best take home on a great bid £1400 ish and that does not allow for host deductions ( you do have to eat and drink )

Well my friends have taken home £1600 so maybe your friends don't bid as well.And why are you taking host into account anyway,you could use your credit or debit card to pay your bills when you are away .You have to eat one way or the other if at home or away so that arguement is irrelevant.;)

I am an FTCSM (£4K more basic to CC) and average take home is £1450 - £1600, more on 1/4 bonus months.

I self fund so never use HOST.

Does anyone know if MF are intending to recruit direct entry CSM's or FTC's in the future?

BA's website is advertising Cabin Crew roles until 15 March from today, but just wondering if the boat has well and truly sailed in terms of direct-entry roles such as CSM, etc.

I don't think they are, and if they do, it will be for the last time, they are running 2 external CSM courses this year, of which I believe they have recruited for already, as for the future they have ample crew on the FTCSM scheme for are waiting for a CSM course, and plenty of crew applying for FTC to cover the future expansion!

Not forgetting the BMI crew - still no confirmation as to where they will fit in.

Aneetha Chadha
 

I thought I'd mention that Aneetha, who had been doing MF recruitment for BA, died in a car accident on 11 March. Her colleagues were shocked by her death.

BA worker tragedy - Heathrow Skyport - The independent voice of the airport since 1976

Has anyone on MF heard any rumours of the bmi cabin crew joining them?

Thanks :ok: