Quite possible I imagine. But will bassa bother to explain the consequences of the 90 days notice issue if that turns-out to be the case? Based on past performance, I think that doubtful.

The flip side to it, is that where the crewing level issue has so far been seen as non contractual (pending appeal), this would most definitely be a contractual issue, not linked to the first dispute. You know what would happen then.....

Hmmm ... bit of a worry isn't it, waiting for the outcome of the court case, and at the same time the ins-n-outs of the TW/BA talks?

I imagine that a (IMHO unlikely) positive outcome for Malone & ors could quite possibly scupper any possible positives resulting from TW/BA.

I thought we would have heard the outcome from the appeal by now ... does anyone have any idea when we might do so?

Not so sure about that. Why would BA offer Unite a significantly better deal than the last one ? Nothing has got worse since the last offer and in fact BA are now in a stronger position to rebuff any strike attempt. I would not be surprised if the deal that has been thrashed out is a reworking of the offer put forward in June. Bear in mind that the only reason Unite felt unable to recommend the June offer was because it did not see an immediate return of staff travel with full seniority. So based on that BA don't have to offer any more cash, manpower levels etc. All they need to do is agree a position on whether or not to return seniority and when this would be effective from. I would think that the likely offer would be return of staff travel with immediate effect, but seniority to be returned over time and with 'no strike' strings. It could be that the company opts to return seniority from the start of the next leave year - i.e. April 1st 2011.

Or maybe a phased and relative return of ST seniority?

Stike for 1 day = seniority dated wef settlement of dispute.

Strike for 2 days = seniority dated wef settlement of dispute + X days/weeks/months - the "X" bit shoud have some appeal to bassa?

And so-on and so-on?

The trouble being that bassa seems unable to contemplate/consider anything other than total and complete ST restoration, which IMO, just isn't a possibility .... a price DOES have to be paid.

Colonel White
 

You may very well be right, but I think it is more than just a rehash, else it would be out in the public arena already. It doesn't matter that BA are in a stronger position, through due process, I imagine almost all of the BASSA members will be looking for an out, not a win. What is the point of grinding them into the ground? They will still be employees with a job to do. The damage will have to be repaired, regardless of what side of the fence you sit on.

Re: Unite's appeal case
 

It's not listed yet for next week. Could take up to 8 weeks to arrive at a ruling. Be interesting to see which way the judges jump. Lady Justice Smith was one of the appeal court judges who heard the previous appeal by Unite and found in their favour. I do feel sorry for her as whichever way she goes this time, there will be someone who may suggest that her reasoning was coloured by the previous decision. What will be lost entirely will be the legal arguments one way or the other.

Litebulbs

Agree with you that there is little point in grinding them into the ground. I think the crunch now is that there are still a fair number of BASSA members who did not go on strike who would want a quick settlement. If BA are seen to offer a better deal than the June offer, then BASSA can claim a victory. It will be seen as a vindication. For that reason alone, BA can't agree to a radically improved deal. Moreover, if BA are perceived to have the upper hand, then the way in which any return of staff travel is treated has to be with utmost caution. An immediate return with full seniority would be taken as capitulation. The only other cards that are potentially in play are the various appeals and tribunals. It may be that as part of any overall package, Unite have to agree to dropping any outstanding court action. I stick by my guess that the package will be the same financial deal as offered last time, but with tinkering around the staff travel seniority. It would not be grinding crew into the ground, it would be aligning them with what others have already accepted.

Colonel White
 

Well, we will all see soon enough.

colonel white and litebulb.....

BASSA are doing a good job grinding themselves into the ground on their own!
I personally see no change on BA's position with regards to staff travel and with BASSA's hand looking very weak why should BA go soft now? I could tolerate something for commuters to help them return to their home airports only but other than that BA have to standby by their words. You strike you lose staff travel.

By the way I would rather a vcc than a xxxx any day!

Chesh01
 

Chesh01, I can understand the point you are making, but I do not completely agree. The majority of crew will still be at BA for many years, after this is concluded. Industrial relations will have to be repaired when both sides have left the field. Obviously the fight for survival has been won and there is going to be thousands of strikers still in employment post settlement.

Chesh01 - BA cannot sustain their position for too much longer as BASSA can not either. Working relationships especially onboard the aircraft are close to breaking point. This isn't healthy in an industry like ours where CRM should always take priority.

What is it going to take before some major happens?

Lets hope the BA proposal does include the reinstatement of staff travel with out any loss of seniority etc and that a deal can be done sooner rather than later.

The last thing any of us want (or should want) is a prolonged dispute and cases being heard in the courts.

By all accounts its was UNITE that initiated this latest round of talks, not BA. From that it is reasonable to conclude that UNITE feel more pressure (for whatever reason) to settle this dispute.

BA has already signalled that it is willing to return ST, albeit with restrictions on the effective date of joining. UNITE (TW) have stated that the last deal was acceptable with the exception of ST and the disciplinary issues.

It is again reasonable to conclude a few things from this. The main parts of the deal are unlikely to be significantly different from the last deal. The areas of negotiation are likely to be over ST and disciplinary issues. it is also likely that UNITE would wish to secure bargaining rights for MF and perhaps some mechanism to gain some input into route transfer to MF.

I believe that ST will be returned with a phased return of date of joining. I think that there may well be an independent review of the disciplinary system perhaps done by ACAS, but I see no way back for those sacked recently. I think UNITE may secure negotiating rights for MF and the right to be consulted over route transfers. There may be some other sweeteners in the deal from BA but they will be tied up in a no strike deal for a number of years. I suspect there will also be a clause that includes some loss of ST and or other things should there be a strike in the future.

It will be interesting to see what the deal is as it will define industrial relations for the next several years.

I dispute that totally. Relationships are respectful and tolerant. Where are you getting your info? My experiences have all been positive recently. I'm a pilot (not VCC!) and I don't recognise what you say.

Yes. Tony Woodley won't authorise another strike ballot and it'll be game over for BASSA.

Very true and I have no doubt it won't be any easy job. However, industrial relations between BA and the rest of the employee body won't be helped if BASSA is allowed any sort of crowing victory.

Strikemaster - I am BA cabin crew. The atmosphere in my opinion is far from
respectful and tolerant. However you view it from one side of the flight deck door and I view it from the other side.

Strikemaster - OzzieO is absolutely right. The longhaul CSD's say that the atmosphere on long-haul flights between the different factions of Cabin Crew is often difficult. What may seem 'respectful and tolerant' on the bus is actually simmering resentment, mistrust and almost a 'gang' culture. Fear of saying the wrong thing seems to suppress a lot of the outward signs (and tempers the relationship between cockpit and cabin) but the underlying strain is ever present. The atmosphere on short-haul is better on most days because so few crew took IA but it only takes a couple of strikers to change the whole mood.

Lets just hope things get sorted out sooner rather than later. I hate working in this vile atmosphere.

Ottergirl
 

How many took IA then? Or are you guessing - or are you going to say that every crew you have flown with have all been non-strikers?

Yes but you have already said on a previous thread how you treat those that went on strike haven't you?