I am afraid I don't see what some of you seem to imply when it comes to customer service.

As a SCCM on E/F I see consistent good service from our cabin crew and crew striving to make our passengers happy.

I very rarely have to talk to a crew member about his or her performance because the performance of the majority of cabin crew, and I can only speak for E/F as that's where I work, is very high.

I actually have to question if some of you actually have flown as a passenger on one of our flights because the standard of service I personally see from my cabin crew is very good.

As for Right Engines post earlier regarding the disruption agreement, I can confirm that the agreement came into play during this disruption and therefore the Doms would not have been insisting crew had two days down route as per our usual agreements. During disruption, like the snow, BA has to inform the union of the fact that the Disruption agreement is being used ( it does not have to get permission) and this was done. Crew were stuck down route because the airport was closed to inbound aircraft and not due to crew or Doms insisting on two days.

We've a majority of pretty damned consistently excellent crew. We've a few poor ones. Like any experience, what do people notice and remember the most? The bad, naturally.

The above applies to management in BA, as much as it does to crew.

On that, rather obvious, note, I'm off to start on the fizz and prep myself for the usual anticlimactic New Year's bash.

Good wishes to all and here's to a mutually satisfactory resolution to this far too bitter and drawn out dispute.

ATB

MrB

Col White, my collective bargaining rights lie with (for better or worse) Bassa. My point was Woodley should have agreed with Bassa before shaking hands with Walsh.

As it happened, Bassa were prepared to put the last proposal to cabin crew, but would not recommend something which withdrew fundamental rights of workers. Unite therefore saw no point in running a ballot. Neither should we forget that a stipulation of Walsh was if any of the unions involved refused to recommend the offer, he would withdraw it.


PS, Happy new year to all.

OK a retraction is in order or at least a 'clarification'.

Whenever pilots (particularly Captains) are asked to work outside their agreements, on most occasions when considering the needs of their customers, crew and themselves, they usually choose the option to work outside their agreement to the mutual benefit of all parties. Our Union have no problem with this and unsurprisingly neither do our management. In fact they usually write us a letter thanking us for our 'flexibility'.

Cabin crew have this paradoxical situation that despite their wanting to work beyond their 'contractual obligation', for the reasons stated above, but their managers (DOM's) say that they can't. WTF? As far as the CAA are concerned, you stick within their legal limits and feel certain you have sufficient levels of alertness to carry out your role then all is legal.

Why can I, a Captain, work 2 hours longer than you because I'm working to discretional scheme limits but you, by order of your managers, can't because they apply your 'industrial agreement' as if it was inscribed in law. It isn't! It is guidance for you as an individual that shapes how your work is rostered. Once you are doing it for real, only scheme limits should apply in reality. That is how EVERY other airline works.


Put simply,

CAA (Scheme)= Legal obligation
Industrial = Guidance

Pilots can do it why not cabin crew? Do you want to be thought of as independent minded, customer focussed professionals or do you want to be managed over every facet of your role like children? If you prefer the first option then someone needs to educate your DOM's!

I do however apologize for belittling any aspect that the DOM's provide to support crew in other areas.

And finally I have had personal experience of 4 down route cancellations caused by cabin crew hours issues enforced by DOM's on a cabin crew that were each time unanimous in their belief that they would have preferred to work to Scheme limits. The HOTAC and rebooking costs must have come to close to 6 figures!

All because of the paradoxical operational interpretation of your 'agreement' by DOM's.

I genuinely do not understand what they are trying to achieve with this method of management.

I work for BA on the WW fleet. I'm quite junior, usually being at the bottom of the list. Before joining BA I worked for a charter airline in the UK and an airline in the Middle East.

It makes me very sad to read about all of this. BA cabin crew have no idea how lucky they are. Even with working with less crew onboard, they are the best paid crew in the UK and they have extremely good benefits. Working for BA is not anywhere near working for any other companty. Working for a UK charter airline, or down in the Middle East, is very hard work. Very long days, not really good pay, really no union representation, especially down in the Middle East.

I'm very junior on the WW fleet. I usually end up working in CW because the more senior crew seem to avoid that cabin now since imposition last year. But, I love my job more than anything and I love to serve our customers. Many of us crew do.

I hope this message gets through to all the striking crew.

My name has been spread since March that I worked through the strikes. I never thought a strike would be the solution as there was never really any reason for it. It never seems to go wrong either as I'm always seem to be working with striking crew. We used to have a really good solidarity and crew would socialise with eachother. But since the strikes earlier this year I have been faced with ignorance, backstabbing and crew not talking to me on flights or downroute. Our flight crew have been really good as I have always talked to them prior briefing since the strikes explaining the situation.

Realise what you're doing. A friend of mind recently did a 9 day BKK/SYD and none of the cabin crew talked to her except the flight crew.

I love my job, and many of us do, but I can assure that I'm always crying before always going into work because of the actions from some of you. Why? Because I'm scared of the actions by some of you. I'm even considering leaving BA and have went to several job interviews.

Phfelix, dont leave we need people like you.
happy new year!!

Phfelix
Welcome to Pprune, I am glad you found us because it might help you feel less alone. The chances are that on each of these unpleasant trips you had, there were other people who came to work but were not strong enough to admit it. You can't make ignorant people talk to you, and actually do you want them to? It will get better over time, particularly once it is all sorted and in the meantime find support wherever you can, be it flight crew, CSDs, other crew. A great many CSD's came in to work, even on WW! I am on short-haul so not much use on a trip but if you want to meet up and chat in CRC then I'm (and some others on here) happy to do so. PM me if you'd like that.
Happy new year!
Ottergirl

Right Engine
They are trying to fulfill the terms of their employment as dictated by British Airways. If they stick rigidly to the agreement it is because that is what they are employed to do. You are assuming that BA gave them a choice which is not the case. If the company wants more flexibility then they will change the system but in the meantime the DOMs, like many of us mere employees, are not employed to make up their own minds so your beef is with the company and not the DOMs.

I suspect that historically the reason BA has told them to stick to the rules is so they don't have the CC unions kicking off so potentially this all could be open for change.

I'll second that.
I have been pm'd by other unhappy crew and gone for a coffee in the CRC and it does help.
There really are more people that worked than didn't but people are scared to say so, especially the main crew.
I know there is a list of crew that worked going around (and I expect my name is on it) but just keep your head up, this WILL be over soon.

Have you got a good manager, mine is great and I unload on her regularly. Try and seek her or him out and have a chat.

Don't leave because you will miss it. Wait a while before making a rash decision.

Hi Phfelix,

Don't despair...I am a CSD. I worked through the strikes. As Ottergirl has said, would you want to socialise with ignorant people anyway?

The majority of crew I have flown with since this sorry debacle have continued to be professional and respectful. Remember this is your job NOT your life so don't let it have any impact on that.

You are entitled to an opinion, as is everyone else, and people have to respect that. Keep smiling, work hard and be proud of yourself.

As you pointed out, BA crew have a comfortable life. We are well renumerated compared to other carriers.

We do however have restricting, antiquated working practices compared to our competitors. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed these for many years (and with the new proposal will continue to do so!!) however I also do realise that we as a community need to change. We need to become more flexible. We need to engage with the company to find mutually beneficial 'tweaks' that will offer us a win-win to our customers, BA and crew.

For many years, we have been in a situation whereby previous weak BA management have created an environment where the union have had the power. This must change. I firmly believe that BA are not out to bust the Union. Come on, the LT can't negotiate with 12,000 crew. They need a representing body to engage with. What I do believe is that BA are determined to shift the power from the Union back to them. Why should the Union have the final say on things like product enhancements? Our competitors are just laughing at us as they invest in their products and sail right past!!

Unfortunately, alot of crew can't see furthur than the end of their noses and appreciate the bigger picture...the big world outside. And that big world is ugly!! I recount stories to my non-flying friends (hot towels, window blinds) and they laugh...out loud... then stare at me in disbelief!!

On a final note, has anyone been watching the TV programme 'The Savoy'? A world class. premium brand and delivering consistently excellent service. Its strict but the staff are motivated, love their jobs and constantly strive to go the extra mile! The managers are constantly giving direct developmental feedback yet this doesn't impact on working relationships...it actually builds respect....something I feel our community lacks sometimes.

Happy New Year

Happy New Year to you too!

Thanks for the great response! It's a really good forum. Unlike other forums where's it a bit like one-way.

Can I just say that our flight crew and VCC have been fantastic? I don't think that you're stealing our work. They have agreed to cost savings and want the company to succeed. I do, and many others as well. If BASSA and Amicus had negotiated in the first place we never would have been in this mess. They are the reason to all of this and why there's such a gap between striking and non-striking crew, cabin crew and flight crew, cabin crew and the rest of the people in BA.

I don't know what's gone with rostering as I always seem to be working with striking crew but my next trip is an MIA and they have VCC on it. I'm actually looking forward to it as I know I won't be lonely. Since March I have relied on our flight crew, which I don't mind as they've been great to me.

My name has been spread for many months. I always come into work with a stomach ache. Maybe that's why crew are ignoring me.

But I love my job more than anything else. I would have given out hot towels but I can remember many flights where our CSD asked us to, but crew wearing Bassa lanyards etc, refused. If you did they would give you nasty looks, backstab you in the galley when you went out in the cabin and never speak to you again. It takes less than 2 minutes to do it. You don't need another crew onboard to do it.

Compare us to SIA, EK, EY, QR, AF, QF etc. They work their crew very hard. They don't demand another crew member to another additional task. I worked for a company in the Middle East and sometimes we operated three below standard because there were no crew available yet they demanded a full service. We managed. The striking crew at BA have no idea how lucky they are.

I want BA to succeed. I love my job. I love serving our customers. I just don't know how to cope.

Ottergirl, I feel you are spot on here. I remember during the Gate Gourmet dispute, we were put in a hotel on sby 10 miles from LHR. I literally lived down the road from the hotel but the DOM's said PLEASE do not go home as we don't want any problems with the unions, and should stick to what has been agreed' IE; stay at the hotel no matter what. What was farciscal, was that there were crew crying out for hotel rooms as everything had been canx, but couldn't be given them because the likes of me HAD to have one:ugh: So there has no doubt in the past been managers/DOM's etc who have literally been scared to death of upsetting Bassa.


I want to make it very clear that we need agreements in place, or else it would be anarchy, but we also need flexibility in the event of bad weather/disputes etc, something Bassa have not been good at in the past IMO


PS wecome PHfelix. You will find us a pretty honest bunch on here as long as you stick to the facts!! Don't worry, this will be over soon. My personal hope is for Duncan Holley to press the nuclear button again, and go for a 2-3 month strike. That will sort the men from the boys.

Hula - great post. Sums it up nicely

Winston smith

In the future this will all change. Bassa will not be dictating product changes anymore. I am part of a team that are looking into changes
to the onboard product . BA wants crew who are experianced, streetwise, know what they are talking about etc, to move things forward. Not a Bassa rep who hardly ever flies, and who is destructive towards the company rather than constructive. We were told by Bill francis that the days of Bassa DICTATING these types of changes are gone. All I can say is that its long overdue.

Finally as an aside, I flew with a lovely crew member the other day who flew with Duncan Holley a couple of years ago. Quite simply said he was THE worst supervisor he had ever met. Absolutely NO idea what he was diong, and was on the phone before and during boarding attending to his union matters apparently:ugh:

Ottergirl is right re the DOMs.

They are instructed by the company to stick to both Sceme and industrial.

Indeed, if they inadvertently break industrial, I believe, it's discussed at monthly steering meetings between mangers and union reps, so as to avoid a re-occurance. The company does try to stick to agreements, even though it might not like some of them.

In other words the DOMs are just doing their job, as asked by BA and doing it very well under a lot of pressure, most of the time.

However, I for one, would much rather move to a system similar to the one the pilots have, regarding being more flexible on industrial limits off-schedule.

It has been possible to do his in the past, however, by asking the DOMs to request dispensation from the unions to extend beyond industrial limits.
The unions will want to know if all crew are in agreement before agreeing, but I have used this in the past and we've been able to avoid a great deal of inconvenience for the pax AND the crew.

However, if the situation arose now, things would be extremely difficult.

Firstly, with the present mood, would all crew agree? Secondly, I'm not even sure whether that line of communication between the DOMs and the reps currently exists. (Anyone know?) Thirdly even if it does, would the unions agree?

Frankly, I dread the situation arising. I think the way I would deal with it is, if the unions are uncontactable, is to see if there are enough crew willing to go with it, to at least operate at legal min crew, and leave those that won't play ball behind.

Much though I disagree strongly with the current agreement on off-schedule working, I am loath to simple run rough-shod over it, otherwise, what point is there in having any agreements? It's the agreements that are at fault (And need to be changed, to more flexible ones), NOT the people applying them, neither the DOMs nor the poor SCCMs who have to handle a very difficult situation.

Anyone else (especially other SCCMs) got any thoughts on that?

This is Welshboy1982's post on the other cabin crew thread. Now you may think is DH revisited again, which is a common conclusion of this site, to any questioning of the employer in question, but it would have been the longest plant ever, if you review the posting history.

Now looking from the sidelines, you would have to be a tad naive not to think that the these conditions of work could be the end result of the current management teams plans. Maybe that is why the dispute is still ongoing. It would appear that the employer has answered the questions of the employees for its long term aims, by making the conditions of this new operation so bad.

I call BS. There are several absolute limits in scheme, one is 900 per year. There is another one which is 100 hours per 28 days. Here is the reference:

So someone is making things up in an attempt to stir things up. This is a tactic that BASSA has repeatedly used throughout this dispute; remember the planes parked at Cardiff or the ones doing circuits or the judge's skiing holiday?

As I said, check the posting history. As to facts and figures -

"The two periods of industrial action affecting British Airways services caused an estimated net loss of 200,000 passengers across the UK airports, of which 180,000 were at Heathrow."

BAA: Official Site for BAA Airports

That quote refers to Flight Crew flying time limits, these are ANO limitations and do not apply to Cabin Crew. Cabin Crew hours are limited by the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations in the first instance which has absolute limits of 2000 hours in 12 months not exceeding 900 hours flight time. The duty hour limit for a BA Cabin Crew member over a 4 week period is an average of 190 hours and an absolute maximum of 210 hours so this roster is well within what's allowed. *

That's not to say that it is a sustainable roster in the long-term, I've been told that about 4 or 5 years ago BA Cabin Crew employed at Gatwick had a change to their rostering designed to get more out of them. It did but at the expense of many crew reaching the 900 hour limit, being unable to fly and consequently crew shortages resulted. Much of BA's Gatwick program had to be sub-chartered to several operators (Astraeus and Monarch spring to mind) for several months, the problem was compounded by crew resigning as they couldn't afford to live on the Gatwick basic wage.

* Just remembered that there is a seperate document covering Mixed Fleet Scheme rules, the duty hours applicable to them maybe different and probably greater!

Hi Juan,

I posted this on the other thread: