British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
 

Best wishes crew, I hope negotiations do indeed continue for everyones sake.

Cheers

Long haired redneck surf hippie pilot.

Buter

(I just wanted to be the first to post, really)

I note on the BA forum that the crew are complaining that BA haven't turned up for talks today. Just wanted to point out that this may be due to the fact that BA have asked ACAS to mediate any further talks.

does anyone else get annoyed at bassa's continual comparison to the pilots pay and conditions?

It seems to be just to stir up emotional ranting in their publications. It is completely irrelevent and like comparing cabin crew wages with that of a supermarket worker. Different jobs people.....

What's even more annoying is they still won't compare them accurately! They claim their 2.61% pay cut proposal 'exactly mirrors' the pilots but conveniently overlook the additional £1800 cut in flying pay. Wonder what the judge will make of that at injunction time?

I also get annoyed by their behaviour but they are not mentioning anything that every other department in BA have had their terms and conditions changed the last years.

True Figures
 

Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%. These figures were released last night.

Guys less face it Willy wants a strike. You only have to go on the BA forum to see the ill feeling we have for our managers.

"Crew have been asked to save 37% unlike the flight deck, as the deal done by BALPA only equates to about 8%"

Perhaps BASSA could have spent their time more profitably by negotiating with the company, then perhaps their deal may have been a lot more reasonable.

I feel great sympathy for my CC colleagues - it must be frightening looking at how your financial prospects are facing catastrophe.

BASSA's failure to represent the whole crew rather than the senior few at every turn seems to have finally hit the end of the road - their actions have failed their members shockingly. This can now only end in tears.

And what you forget, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, is that other departments, including the pilots, have been changing their Ts & Cs and pay for several years - unlike the cabin crew. BASSA have harumphed, foot-stomped, hissy-fitted and more for years, and now the change that should have been made long ago, in small increments, is going to be made in one fell swoop.

Of course its going to hurt, but BASSA has only itself to blame. Market forces and a lousy financial period are going to claim those who wander around with their fingers in their ears and blinkers on their eyes. Bad luck.

Again, NO JACKETS REQUIRED, why the comparison? This isn't about whats fair or anything between the two (and the rest) departments! IFCE has been given a target and so have the other ones, perhaps your target is higher % wise because of the minimal changes it has made since privatisation........

Why can't bassa just produce info to its members based on what it is up to rather then moaning that other departments have different cost targets???!!!

I'm all for fact based debate but when bassa puts out crap figures to stoke up emotions it's entirely wrong on many levels. But then this is a rumour site so perhaps........

I'm not interested in Pilots pay or T&Cs. But the argument raises its head every time a Pilot compares their own situation with Cabin Crew. I.e. 'Our T&Cs are x,y,z so we shouldn't have to do a,b,c.'

They have always been different jobs and at different times have had different opportunities. I keep reading comments from Pilots telling Cabin Crew not to compare T&Cs. Agree. So, if there is no comparrison for new T&Cs, why should there have been a retro-comparrison of old T&Cs.

I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated and how I should operate. I don't tell Pilots, Engineers or Ground Staff how much they are worth or how to do their jobs. Necks out.

Or, is the problem that Walsh has linked everybodies agreements together. Does this failure mean that other agreements will nolonger be ratified. Has Walsh deliberately created a split, a blame culture. I believe he has. It is easy to offer £13million of shares and drop new fleet when the leadership have no intention of offering these conessions. But the blame will not, on the surface, lie with management, no, it will now lie with the Cabin Crew.

I've said before and I increasingly maintain. Walsh has no desire for talks to succeed. Read the latest news item on BA's ESS site.

ACAS called in as talks end without agreement


It has not proved possible to conclude an agreement with the trade unions on the pay and productivity discussions by the deadline of June 30.

British Airways has therefore asked the conciliation service ACAS to facilitate any future meetings they may have.


Curt. And highlights the leadership attitude. May?

The threat of change will not only hit cc. Guy's even the chance of a strike will effect everyone In BA. I can not see a agreement between BA or BASSA. As a membership we gave our unions a mandate on what to negotiate, that is what they have proposed to BA. If BA refuse it and impose any changes, we would ballot for a strike.

What bothers me , is that there are members that are creating a them and us environment. We must respect our individual unions, as it is their respective job to get the best deal for its members.

I think it is good news that BA have called ACAS in straight away. The message from BASSA last night was very emotive, far from accurate and calling it's members to arms.

The message from Amicus, on the UniteBA website, was much more level-headed and focused. I sincerely hope that Amicus have recognised the need to continue to negotiate and that they can persuade their emotive, fly-off-the handle counter-parts to do the same.

The calls for strike on the other forums are far too premature and very dangerous talk indeed.

Breathe everyone...and think about what's at stake here.

NO JACKETS REQUIREDand you then go on to state merely 24 minutes later:Perhaps you need look no further than yourself?

I'm not sure where the problem is with BAs statement. BA have been negotiating for three months, their bottom line is that IFCE must deliver their share of the savings. Instead of working towards that goal they've had three months of denial, prevarication and obfuscation from BASSA, all directed towards giving up as little as possible. If so little has been achieved in three months why should BA continue to negotiate? Their bottom line is clear. BASSA seem to be trying to string things out as long as possible in the hope that they'll be overlooked, or can reduce their share. If they were spending their time negotiating instead of looking over the fence at other departments it would be worth carrying on, but why would BA agree to another three months of bluster?

No jackets reqd, thanks for the numbers, I have been asking for the numbers for a while.

Pilots 8%, Cabin Crew 37%, this gap is too big.

Reminds me of interview with Mr T many years ago, he was asked what he expected when he gets in the ring with Rocky, he said just one word "PAIN"

Unions and management have allowed CC market rate to be unworkable by years of doing nothink, now the CC will catch up fast track, good luck to all the CC, hope you can adjust the % to below 20, but I think not, if pain is to be taken, management will want max gain, wild guess is 25/26% is the bottom line number.

NO JACKETS REQUIRED
As I remember it the unanimous mandate you gave your union was -

NO to saving £82 Million.
NO to the creation of the new fleet.
NO to any further talks about this.

And a Vote of NO Confidence in Willie and Immediate Ballot for Strike Action should plans still be pushed forward.



Now whats the question!

BASSA was against introduction of a new fleet but suggested themselves for a new contract on current fleets instead. BA has now done this and BASSA is mad over it. What's the problem?

Its in the detail nug.

Bassa suggested a new contract for new joiners. BA have scrapped new fleet as a seperate entity but proposed that the details of new fleet are accepted by existing crew.

We are to become new fleet.

What BA have proposed goes much further than Bassa's proposal.

It is far too simplistic to announce that Bassa got what they wanted so why the fuss.

And because of this naive attitude I question if your motivation goes beyond what is best for customer, company and crew. Am I being too simplistic to ask - is your motivation only what is best for the company and screw the rest?

I fail to understand the comment that "We are to become New Fleet". That is BASSA rhetoric at its' worst, and lacks any substance. Here is my quick on the back of an envelope assessment of the BA Proposal, which is a long way off making us New Fleet.

There are positives and it is important not to lose sight of those:

No New Fleet
This was the biggest threat to our jobs that we have ever encountered. The fact that it has gone does mean our jobs are no longer under threat.

No Pay Cut
The company are asking us to work harder (a lot!) to get more productivity, but they are NOT reducing our pay, which, in the current climate is something to be grateful for.

No Compulsory Redundancies
At the moment, we are not facing compulsory redundancies. Again under the current climate, this is something we have to keep in perspective and be thankful for.

Like it or not there are certain things that have to be accepted:
Pay freeze – this was offered by Unite originally so we have to lump it.
ORP – This was inevitable and is necessary to keep the business afloat so ACCEPT.
Crew Complements We can and have to work harder to make the necessary cost savings.
Many crew I talk to would rather lose crew onboard than lose pay. There is perhaps room for some minor adjustments to retaining crew, but then ACCEPT

WW Rest Downroute
UNITE need to negotiate this on the basis of 900hr restriction. BA have to pay A.N.Y Crewmember to stay in a hotel, and for their allowances. I fail to see how putting two crew in over 2 nights, as opposed to 1 crew member over 2 nights can save money. In addition it will have repercussions on the 900hr limit. Therefore UNITE have a good argument here and need to NEGOTIATE

EF Finish Time – 2200 – ACCEPT

EF Reduction in Days off
Giving up one day off a month is a huge loss, and warrants something in return. . Alternative options could include offering fixed links in exchange for retaining days off. NEGOTIATE HARD

Fixed Monthly Duty Payment
This does have benefits to crew in the form of guaranteed pay when on leave, sick, etc. Also benefits our pension so therefore NEGOTIATE a decent rate and accept.

Promotion Prospects
A lot of people joined BA for the promotion prospects. Therefore the Rate on New contract Supervisor has to be beneficial for existing main crew to aspire to it. Therefore NEGOTIATE a rate to be beneficial for all.

We are paying UNITE to negotiate and not to simply call Strike! at the first hurdle. Hard negotiation, hopefully now with ACAS to mediate, is essential to achieve the best possible outcome for cabin crew.

CC stated loudly and clearly that they wouldn't accept a big pay cut.

So BA have come up with a solution which addresses this.

Sure , there is a change in the way they'll be paid - no box payments , or destination payments, or back to back payments, or telephone allowance, etc etc etc.
But a more equitable payment which doesn't just favour the reps and those who are mates with the schedulers.

Gone will be the 2 local nights after a long range diversion, and closing cabins cos they're 1 short. And no early start after days off. And no late finish before days off!!!! etc etc etc......

The time off down route issues ( reducing to 24 hours on all layovers ) could be negotiated I'm sure.
As could the total flexible roster system; which is, in my view, totally unreasonable.

Being cabin crew is not a career, its a job. Why should they expect promotion and 20 years of payrises for what is an unskilled position.

Have BASSA ever actually done any negotiating?

The Blu Riband - we posted a minute apart with essentially the same ideas.:hmm:

If you're a pilot and I'm cabin crew, isn't that against BASSA terms of reference??;):ok:

I'll let you off the unskilled bit....until I fly with you!!!:p

Hiflyer. How high are you!

The no pay cut relates only to basic pay. Variable pay makes up between 40-60% of total pay. New contracters like myself often earn more in variable pay than basic salary because new contract basic is low.

No compulsary redundancy. 2000 hce jobs are going. If there is no settlement there is no voluntary redundancy. There is now a nasty rumour circulating the CRC that letters are being dispatched to crew giving 90 days notice of change of t&cs or CR.

Pay freeze. Will be accepted.

Reduced MBTs and all routes with single night stops. Find the columbus document and compare.

Promotion only to a new single supervisory role. Ditto.

The blue riband spouts the same old tosh about bassa not negotiating. It was BA who did not turn up this morning. Unfortunately for them sky news was there, cameras et al.

There is no wide spread rejection of a single payment to supplant other variables. But it has been given no value, so how can you state that accepting it is not a pay cut?

HiFlyer14
I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

There is plenty of room for negotiation.
In fact I believe BA has moved considerably already.
Pay will drop, but not hugely, and should be fairer.
These proposals do not warrant the " I can't afford to eat " rhetoric of the reps and some crew!!

The unskilled bit was deliberately provocative as I urge crew to realise that it will still be a good, and well paid job.

Surely crew could see that box payments, 16 crew on a 747, 2 nights after a div. etc simply couldn't last forever.

BASSA must stop trying to make it personal , and put their efforts into actually trying to produce the best result for their members.

Clearly BA will not move on the "permanent" nature of the changes, so why waste the energy trying.

PC767 - Then we agree!

Variable pay - I said NEGOTIATE decent rate
Compulsory Redundancy - can be avoided - the ball's in our court
Pay Freeze - in agreement
Single Night Stops - I said NEGOTIATE
Promotion - NEGOTIATE

If it outside the realms of UNITE to negotiate a decent settlement on this one, then they have severely let down the membership and are not worthy of the name Union.

We both agree - it's just that you're shouting "Failure to Agree" and I'm saying "Negotiate".:)

767
turning up is not the same as actually negotiating.
Something BASSA has failed to do repeatedly on both counts.

And why hasn't BASSA managed to put a value on this variable payment.
Surely this is the 1st question all crew will ask.

.....because it isn't a bassa proposal. My expectation is that if the company wants crew to support the idea, then they will put a value on. Failure to do so only arouses suspicion.

Equally though to be fair, BASSA haven't costed their proposal either. Just stating a headline saving figure doesn't make it so. Would genuinely be interested to see how the union's proposal makes that figure.

Well obviously! 30th June was the cutoff for the (serious) negotiations! BASSA didn't pull it's collective finger out so, with today being 1st July, your 'free' negotiating period is finished. Is that so surprising?:rolleyes:

Its amazing that BA are even going down the route of now offering BASSA the chance to negotiate through ACAS! But it will be an even harder game to play now because BASSA fiddled while Rome burned.

And Sky News? So what? Little more than an attempt by BASSA to make it appear that they are somehow the 'injured' party in all this. Good grief! :ugh: Cutoff was YESTERDAY!

PC767 - remember the onboard legal and company hierachy...

BA is a business. It is run for the benefit of its shareholders. Not its staff, not even its passengers, but its shareholders. If you can get your head round this then you may understand where WW is coming from.

WW has a responsibility towards the shareholders to run the business efficiently. That includes keeping its costs under control. If any part of the business can be made more efficient, by maintaining service levels while reducing costs, then it’s WW’s job to make it so. You could actually argue that he’s been negligent by not reforming cabin crew T&C’s previously. Given BA’s current predicament, he might now see it as making a virtue out of necessity.

It's been well documented that the cost of BA cabin crew is twice that of it's nearest competitor. That is an unsightly blemish on BA's finances, and one which will be seen by the shareholders as eroding the value of their investment. That's why, sooner or later, BA will grasp this particular nettle. If WW bottles it, then it will be at the top of his successors in-tray.

NO JACKETS REQUIRED,

What you forget is that BA (cleverly) used an obscure piece of European legislation in a manner for which it was never intended. The result of that Open Skies ruling is now subject a long and protracted wrangle involving various national and European trade union organisations. This is because that particular bit of legislation could, conceivably, be used to stop industrial action by anybody, anywhere in Europe, for pretty much any reason. Or didn't BASSA tell you that?

Well, I'd still say that everyone else's house is in substantially better order than BASSA's! :ok:

OpenSkies - a below-market rate operation that appeared to contravene a scope clause, which was feared to undermine a market-rate operation at mainline.

Cabin crew - a vastly above-market rate operation.

Two very different things.

Happy to see your costings of the continutity and viability of the operation on present Ts & Cs against the present revenue backdrop...except BASSA has not bothered to do even that...

Continuing to pursue to the High Court is the complete opposite of backing out. It was doggedly pursued to ensure a precedent was not set. The fact that it failed was as a result of a legal judgement and not due to backing out.

There are some great crew about, and frankly - regardless of the competitive position - the current wage for many (especially Gatwick) is low compared to the intelligence and motivation of many current crew.

However, there is a minority of overpaid, old, union stalwarts whose incessant moaning and lack of motivation is to the severe detriment of the operation and not conducive of a fun, team-based environment that it is supposed to be. Furthermore, the extreme arrogance of this exact group in claiming their superiority is in direct contrast to the quality of operation that they actually do provide, and is a direct insult not only to newer BA crew, but those professionals from outside the airline on much lesser salaries. The direct failure of BASSA in this regard has been to create gold-plated old contracts alongside newer-contract employees with differing motivations and priorities as a result.

The sooner the overpaid, older bunch are handed a P45 (with great regret to the change in lifestyle that will cause), the better.


Simple solution to the issue would be:
- Let Ops run the operation, not the union, giving Captains the right of say over whether a crew works or not (it is the flight crew only who face legal restrictions on operations, hence they who should determine use of discretion)
- Replace all allowances with duty pay, as flight crew have done, resulting in elimination of many supporting accountant roles that are unnecessary (and corruption in trip selection)
- Introduce bidding, permitting lifestyle choices and minimising sickness (as crew actually feel valued and have had a chance to actually bid for the days they require off)
- Marry cabin crew productivity requirements with that of flight crew, permitting crews to work effectively as one and eliminating animosity that is dangerous to flight safety (SFO nightstops would not be legal for flight crew, and would be so tiring as to infringe flight safety if cabin crew had to evacuate on the return leg, in my opinion).

Well Galley FM doing the rounds on the other forums has a rumour that letters are being sent to our homes saying Sign the new contract within 90 days or take severance.:uhoh:

Funny how the militant chants seem to have subsided somewhat....Thank you BASSA - £150000 per month in Union Subscriptions and this is all you can achieve on our behalf.

I am furious. Where does that leave those of us that never wanted to strike in the first place?

HiFlyer14,

Sadly, it leaves you up Sh1te Creek without a paddle. Not so much a 'union' as a self-interested, inefficient, interfering, unprofessional holier-than-thou organisation that has let a lot of folk down!

there are lots of posts here about BA not turning up for the meeting today, surely nobody expected them to be there??. The negotiation dead line of 30/06/09 has passed without agreement.

It seems that if BASSA had been more focused on actually doing a deal with BA,and them turning up on agreed date to talk to BA, then they would not be in this back to the wall situation they find themselves in now.

Negotiations need all parties to talk, thats gone now without ACAS,
BASSA's idea of waiting till others (BALPA) have done a deal then saying
"we will have the same" has no place in todays economy as they are finding.
And in any case why should a different highly skilled workforce be used as a comparason.

News filtering through that BA have refused further meetings with Unite. Quite the game of brinkmanship here.