CC stated loudly and clearly that they wouldn't accept a big pay cut.

So BA have come up with a solution which addresses this.

Sure , there is a change in the way they'll be paid - no box payments , or destination payments, or back to back payments, or telephone allowance, etc etc etc.
But a more equitable payment which doesn't just favour the reps and those who are mates with the schedulers.

Gone will be the 2 local nights after a long range diversion, and closing cabins cos they're 1 short. And no early start after days off. And no late finish before days off!!!! etc etc etc......

The time off down route issues ( reducing to 24 hours on all layovers ) could be negotiated I'm sure.
As could the total flexible roster system; which is, in my view, totally unreasonable.

Being cabin crew is not a career, its a job. Why should they expect promotion and 20 years of payrises for what is an unskilled position.

Have BASSA ever actually done any negotiating?

The Blu Riband - we posted a minute apart with essentially the same ideas.:hmm:

If you're a pilot and I'm cabin crew, isn't that against BASSA terms of reference??;):ok:

I'll let you off the unskilled bit....until I fly with you!!!:p

Hiflyer. How high are you!

The no pay cut relates only to basic pay. Variable pay makes up between 40-60% of total pay. New contracters like myself often earn more in variable pay than basic salary because new contract basic is low.

No compulsary redundancy. 2000 hce jobs are going. If there is no settlement there is no voluntary redundancy. There is now a nasty rumour circulating the CRC that letters are being dispatched to crew giving 90 days notice of change of t&cs or CR.

Pay freeze. Will be accepted.

Reduced MBTs and all routes with single night stops. Find the columbus document and compare.

Promotion only to a new single supervisory role. Ditto.

The blue riband spouts the same old tosh about bassa not negotiating. It was BA who did not turn up this morning. Unfortunately for them sky news was there, cameras et al.

There is no wide spread rejection of a single payment to supplant other variables. But it has been given no value, so how can you state that accepting it is not a pay cut?

HiFlyer14
I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

There is plenty of room for negotiation.
In fact I believe BA has moved considerably already.
Pay will drop, but not hugely, and should be fairer.
These proposals do not warrant the " I can't afford to eat " rhetoric of the reps and some crew!!

The unskilled bit was deliberately provocative as I urge crew to realise that it will still be a good, and well paid job.

Surely crew could see that box payments, 16 crew on a 747, 2 nights after a div. etc simply couldn't last forever.

BASSA must stop trying to make it personal , and put their efforts into actually trying to produce the best result for their members.

Clearly BA will not move on the "permanent" nature of the changes, so why waste the energy trying.

PC767 - Then we agree!

Variable pay - I said NEGOTIATE decent rate
Compulsory Redundancy - can be avoided - the ball's in our court
Pay Freeze - in agreement
Single Night Stops - I said NEGOTIATE
Promotion - NEGOTIATE

If it outside the realms of UNITE to negotiate a decent settlement on this one, then they have severely let down the membership and are not worthy of the name Union.

We both agree - it's just that you're shouting "Failure to Agree" and I'm saying "Negotiate".:)

767
turning up is not the same as actually negotiating.
Something BASSA has failed to do repeatedly on both counts.

And why hasn't BASSA managed to put a value on this variable payment.
Surely this is the 1st question all crew will ask.

.....because it isn't a bassa proposal. My expectation is that if the company wants crew to support the idea, then they will put a value on. Failure to do so only arouses suspicion.

Equally though to be fair, BASSA haven't costed their proposal either. Just stating a headline saving figure doesn't make it so. Would genuinely be interested to see how the union's proposal makes that figure.

Well obviously! 30th June was the cutoff for the (serious) negotiations! BASSA didn't pull it's collective finger out so, with today being 1st July, your 'free' negotiating period is finished. Is that so surprising?:rolleyes:

Its amazing that BA are even going down the route of now offering BASSA the chance to negotiate through ACAS! But it will be an even harder game to play now because BASSA fiddled while Rome burned.

And Sky News? So what? Little more than an attempt by BASSA to make it appear that they are somehow the 'injured' party in all this. Good grief! :ugh: Cutoff was YESTERDAY!

PC767 - remember the onboard legal and company hierachy...

BA is a business. It is run for the benefit of its shareholders. Not its staff, not even its passengers, but its shareholders. If you can get your head round this then you may understand where WW is coming from.

WW has a responsibility towards the shareholders to run the business efficiently. That includes keeping its costs under control. If any part of the business can be made more efficient, by maintaining service levels while reducing costs, then it’s WW’s job to make it so. You could actually argue that he’s been negligent by not reforming cabin crew T&C’s previously. Given BA’s current predicament, he might now see it as making a virtue out of necessity.

It's been well documented that the cost of BA cabin crew is twice that of it's nearest competitor. That is an unsightly blemish on BA's finances, and one which will be seen by the shareholders as eroding the value of their investment. That's why, sooner or later, BA will grasp this particular nettle. If WW bottles it, then it will be at the top of his successors in-tray.

NO JACKETS REQUIRED,

What you forget is that BA (cleverly) used an obscure piece of European legislation in a manner for which it was never intended. The result of that Open Skies ruling is now subject a long and protracted wrangle involving various national and European trade union organisations. This is because that particular bit of legislation could, conceivably, be used to stop industrial action by anybody, anywhere in Europe, for pretty much any reason. Or didn't BASSA tell you that?

Well, I'd still say that everyone else's house is in substantially better order than BASSA's! :ok:

OpenSkies - a below-market rate operation that appeared to contravene a scope clause, which was feared to undermine a market-rate operation at mainline.

Cabin crew - a vastly above-market rate operation.

Two very different things.

Happy to see your costings of the continutity and viability of the operation on present Ts & Cs against the present revenue backdrop...except BASSA has not bothered to do even that...

Continuing to pursue to the High Court is the complete opposite of backing out. It was doggedly pursued to ensure a precedent was not set. The fact that it failed was as a result of a legal judgement and not due to backing out.

There are some great crew about, and frankly - regardless of the competitive position - the current wage for many (especially Gatwick) is low compared to the intelligence and motivation of many current crew.

However, there is a minority of overpaid, old, union stalwarts whose incessant moaning and lack of motivation is to the severe detriment of the operation and not conducive of a fun, team-based environment that it is supposed to be. Furthermore, the extreme arrogance of this exact group in claiming their superiority is in direct contrast to the quality of operation that they actually do provide, and is a direct insult not only to newer BA crew, but those professionals from outside the airline on much lesser salaries. The direct failure of BASSA in this regard has been to create gold-plated old contracts alongside newer-contract employees with differing motivations and priorities as a result.

The sooner the overpaid, older bunch are handed a P45 (with great regret to the change in lifestyle that will cause), the better.


Simple solution to the issue would be:
- Let Ops run the operation, not the union, giving Captains the right of say over whether a crew works or not (it is the flight crew only who face legal restrictions on operations, hence they who should determine use of discretion)
- Replace all allowances with duty pay, as flight crew have done, resulting in elimination of many supporting accountant roles that are unnecessary (and corruption in trip selection)
- Introduce bidding, permitting lifestyle choices and minimising sickness (as crew actually feel valued and have had a chance to actually bid for the days they require off)
- Marry cabin crew productivity requirements with that of flight crew, permitting crews to work effectively as one and eliminating animosity that is dangerous to flight safety (SFO nightstops would not be legal for flight crew, and would be so tiring as to infringe flight safety if cabin crew had to evacuate on the return leg, in my opinion).

Well Galley FM doing the rounds on the other forums has a rumour that letters are being sent to our homes saying Sign the new contract within 90 days or take severance.:uhoh:

Funny how the militant chants seem to have subsided somewhat....Thank you BASSA - £150000 per month in Union Subscriptions and this is all you can achieve on our behalf.

I am furious. Where does that leave those of us that never wanted to strike in the first place?

HiFlyer14,

Sadly, it leaves you up Sh1te Creek without a paddle. Not so much a 'union' as a self-interested, inefficient, interfering, unprofessional holier-than-thou organisation that has let a lot of folk down!

there are lots of posts here about BA not turning up for the meeting today, surely nobody expected them to be there??. The negotiation dead line of 30/06/09 has passed without agreement.

It seems that if BASSA had been more focused on actually doing a deal with BA,and them turning up on agreed date to talk to BA, then they would not be in this back to the wall situation they find themselves in now.

Negotiations need all parties to talk, thats gone now without ACAS,
BASSA's idea of waiting till others (BALPA) have done a deal then saying
"we will have the same" has no place in todays economy as they are finding.
And in any case why should a different highly skilled workforce be used as a comparason.

News filtering through that BA have refused further meetings with Unite. Quite the game of brinkmanship here.