Passengers insulting cabin crew. What do you do? here is a case
 

Hello,

Last week, my girlfriend and I decided to go on a trip to West Africa.
I took a Air France flight and she took a Royal Air Maroc flight.

She told me that as the plane was taxiing, a passenger (aged in the 40s) got up to go to the bathroom and that the stewardess kindly asked him to go back to his seat. He started shouting really loud and insulting her, using words I will not write here. The stewardess was shocked as most of the passengers. He was warned that they could call stop the plane and call the Police, but he became even more aggressive as he got up and threaten the crew saying stuff like "bring the police!, the plane is going to my country, i'll bring you to the police".

I am surprised they didn't disembark him. As a passenger I would be shocked and not comfortable having a guy like this in the plane. I would also be mad and want to knock him off but wouldn't do it as I would be in a plane and probably go to jail.

My question is, how are you guys trained to deal with those animals? how can you keep self-control when being insulted? I really have admiration for that.

What would have you done in this situation?

I know that disembarking a passenger would delay the flight and cause some trouble, but I think it should be done everytime a passenger shows aggressivity.

flapsforty wrote a brilliant and very true post!:D

Unfortunately, it happens more and more often; when it happens to me (or anyone in my crew), after analyzing my options i tend to go by "better safe than sorry" - i started using this "motto" if you want after deciding not to off load one of these "abusers" and, just like flapsforty, we ended operating the flight from hell.

The commercial side of an offload (go back to the gate, delay a/c and so on - the a/c makes money in the air, never on the ground) is, sadly, a pressure to the flight crew and CC. However, I would say that in my airline, 99.9% of the CPs will support our decision to offload a pax and should the company turn around and question the offloads' costs, he/she will point out that the safety of the crew and pax have NO cost.

Also, reports are being written and statements to the police given.
Some companies may take the offender (i really want to say idiot but I'll keep it formal...) to court and ask for him to pay the costs of the delay.

And again, as flapsforty mentioned, we are being trained to deal with an abusive pax; we (in my company) also had a self defense day course which did absolutely nothing for me, somehow i don't see myself fighting with one of these "abusers".
Self control, calm and quick thinking do it for me.

And it's not only on the ground when it happens; some might kick off inflight, and you can't really "go back to the gate"... If we don't manage to deal with it, the CP (who we keep informed at all times) might divert to the nearest airport, off load, police will arrest, company might ask for costs to be paid and so on (as above).

No matter when and where it happens, i think there are ways of dealing with it calmly; having said that, if it gets really bad, some other pax might get involved to try and help us (again, it happened to me).


The best, and healthiest attitude one could ever have in a situation like this!:D

Every time I didn't offload- I regretted it.

I explain to the passenger the situation, that I understand why they are frustrated but that because of X i must do Y. I give them the options and explain what will happen if they do not comply. Any sign of aggression- they are off. I do not get paid enough, and passengers do not pay enough, to be abused and intimated by a fellow passenger who decides it's their right to kick off and abuse evrybody else. 9 times out of 10 the passenger apologises, explains they've had a bad day, and sits down not to be heard from for the rest of the flight. the other 1 time, is when they're offloaded and then proceed to kick off in the terminal.

I learnt the hard way that the times you don't offload are the times you wish you did. Ten times better for them to be left behind kicking and screaming... than to be kicking and screaming at US at 30, 000ft!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for the information given.

I have 2 years experience with customer service as I was running my own computer business here in West Africa. And I came across many difficult people, but it was easy for me to "win" as it was my property and I could take them physically out of the store if I wanted to but never did as I would be very ashame of doing that.

But I always been a little bit surprise and shocked by some peoples behaviors, and at the beginning I was thinking about it even at nights "why was this customer so aggressive? did I do anything wrong?", then when I decided to let it go and swallow my pride when in front of a difficult customer, I started feeling better.

For me Aviation represents so much, it's still "magic", and I'm so sad when I see people acting like that. You want to tell them "you are not on a bus, you are going to fly at 39000 feet at 900 kmh safely, have some respect for that".

Also It's sad to see that many passengers consider cabin crew as waitress instead of life savers.

What can be done to make passengers conscious of that? Maybe airlines should include a notice attached to the security briefing card explaining all of that. Explaining that yes passengers are customers but also that their behavior is very important for the safety of everyone and that discipline is expected from them.

I think that management should always backup cabin crews when unloading passengers. I think his luggage should stay in the plane and he should wait for it to return.

I recall an incident on BA some years ago when a passenger was verbally abusive to a stewardess, but in the end it turned out quite amusing.
The aircraft departure from a very snowy Malmo was delayed by late arrival from Heathrow which had experienced its annual 1 inch of snow.
The middle aged businessman was telling the poor young lady what he thought of BA punctuality. She looked like she was barely out of school and from the expression on her face I thought she might burst into tears.
However, she apologised profusely and then added "and would you believe, half way across we had to get out and push".
Loud laughter all around and not another peep from the man.

Post of the year here folks!!!:D

Jumbo, how we wish not all, but the majority of pax to be like you, to see it's not that easy.

But i guess it all comes with the job, surely it's written somewhere in the contract, a clause along the lines of "at times, you will be treated like something one stepped in, you will be shout at, maybe pushed, perhaps you'll break a tooth... - DEAL WITH IT". I keep looking in my contract but no luck finding it so far:sad:

Passangers insulting cabin crew
 

As a pax I would only be glad that the agressive and often potentially dangerous individual is off -loaded. I think most reasonable passangers will accept that there might be a delay as a result - but better to have a pleasant and safe flight than a nightmare of having to suffer such behaviour for hours on end in the air!

Similarly, I think airport staff/ airline staff need to be more strict with passengers who are already drunk prior to boarding! Perhaps if these people would have to fork out for another ticket they would think
twice before getting legless prior to a flight.

I have had dubious "pleasure":ugh: of travelling with a group who spent rather too much time (and money) in the bar prior to the flight on more than one occasion. While their behoviour was "silly" rather than aggressive ( thank God for that) being round them was not very pleasant and somewhat scary - I was not sure if and when their behaviour would get out of hand.
I am an adult - but it was even more scary to my child!

I love flying and really appreciate the hard work both the pilots and cabin crew do !::) You don't need the agression! Neither do the passangers.

Offload them, charge them any costs - other passengers will only thank you for that.

Happy flying!:O

Bouncers
 

I would like to raise a point here folks, isnt there a case these days with the advent of aggressive passengers, to have at least one member of the crew, who is in effect a 6ft 5 gorilla, who if push comes to shove can either intimidate an agressive passenger into keeping his hands at his side, or keeping his gob shut, or who in the worst case scenario can knock his block off, not very pretty I know, and these people would need to be trained, so that the knocking off of the block is the last option, but wouldnt other passengers feel much safer like this,to know that capeability exists. I know it is very nice to be served by young and beautiful people and the airlines have traditionally recruited with this in mind from a public relations point of view, but with all due respect to them a young 20 year old waif of a stewardess about 5ft 4 '' weighing about 8 stone is really not going to be able to deter a nutter, were as he will sit down like a little lamb for a 6ft 5'' oaf. Or face severe consequences. It shouldnt be all cabin crew, but at least one such a person should be with every crew.

while we are on the subject, I have another question:

I remember travelling in planes as a kid, in the 90s, the Pilots were talking more often to the pax through the PA than today. It was very refreshing to hear the pilot give some informations like what are we flying over and etc... why has this practice been abandoned?
I will finish my flight training soon and hope to be a captain one day, I think that I would enjoy "talking" with the passengers, or does it depend on the airline policy?

Most aircraft these days have IFE equipment on board, a lot of the time they allow personal choice of programmes. Whenever you make a PA, the programming is interrupted which is most frustrating, even it the programme restarts where it left off. Secondly, many IFE systems have a moving map feature which allows you to follow the route in real time. Thirdly, only a small proportion of people can have a window seat, so telling them you are flying over xyz will annoy the majority who can't see anyway. Fourthly, on long haul flights many will want to sleep, making a PA may wake them up. Fifthly, not everyone will speak the language of the person making the PA. Sixthly, they don't pay me enough and I'm not a tour guide!

The best lead FAs keep a handle on things regardless.You can diffuse sarcasm and hostility with wit and humor.Sometimes.Very often the passenger will get back to you an hour later and apologize.Thats the best way.If it doesnt work,then you have to take it the next level which might mean offloading or even physical restraint.
Moderation is key in the way FAs approach the job.Youre not teacher and the passengers arent students.Sometimes,a passenger will need to go to the head when the plane is taxiing or the signs are ON.Its rare but can happen.The world wont stop turning.
Weve all seen Anger Management;)It works both ways.Both sides can be difficult or have a SOH failure.I empathize with both sides equally.Ever since 911,most US passengers sit quietly and button it tight.Doesnt necessarily mean theyre happy,they just dont want to get shot.

I'm a FF who wholeheartedly will see aggressive pax chucked off a plane. I don't mind waiting, usually the people on the other end understand when you tell them your departure was delayed thanks to some ungrateful sod who had to get abusive with the f/c. Get rid of them, everyone will probably be applauding you for getting rid of the sod(ette).

Of course, there is always the exception - someone who just vents their spleen and then shuts up and passes out or something, but those are in the distinct minority and fading very very fast.

As for the IFE - IFE has not stopped certain VS and BA pilots from occasionally giving pax a running commentary before dinner and before breakfast is served. It is nice to know the guys/ladies up front are happy to show us some interesting things. I particularly liked the commentary by our BA pilot ex-BOD to LGW in July this year where he told us all about the different bits of coastline of France we were flying over, and then pointed out some stuff while we were delayed into LGW.

:-)

S.

No need for bouncers on every airline though... I once flew with a girl who to look at you'd think she couldn't hurt a fly. However, she was ex police special unit and also did a stint in the army.

Just for fun (and after a couple of bevvies I must admit :E) on a nightstop we asked her to demonstrate on our captain after he'd given her some good-natured teasing on the flight over.

She had him on the floor and helpless in 3 seconds flat. He was 6 foot something and beefy as (bouncer type ;)) and she was about 5' 5" and nothing to her.... :P So looks can be deceiving!!

Jumbo, when a passenger is offloaded, the baggage MUST go too... I believe the practise came about after a lot of aircraft bombings back in the 80's (Lockerbie, anyone?) where passengers(terrorists) 'missed' the flight... now the nutters just bring the bag on and stay with it, but it's done to minimise the risk of the would-be bomber who just has to check a bag in and run... I believe it may even be law. Hope this helps explain it for you.

Add me to the list of SLF who would be more than happy to be delayed if it meant offloading an abusive, aggressive passenger.

I deplore this era of cheap flight for all and am a fierce advocate of compulsory IQ tests before anyone is allowed to buy an airline ticket.

If you do not know how to behave on a plane, you have no business being on one and ruining it for the rest of us, and certainly no business threatening people who are doing their best to be of service to you.

hear hear Rush2112.!!

Rananim, how can you empathise with both sides equally....???

One is being an eedjit, possibly dangerous, unhinged eedjit..

The other is doing their job....

??

Are you suggesting intelligent people aren't capable of causing trouble? Some of the worse passengers I've dealt with weren't "chav scum" but people who really ought to know better. And it's precisely because they think they do know better that they behave the way they do. I'm sure you know the sort I mean - white, middle-class, "I know my rights", Daily Mail reading, Merlot-glugging pompous asses.

I actually prefer to deal with, shall we say, the lower end of the market because firstly they don't think they're better than you and look down their noses at you and secondly you can often have a good old argument with them without them taking umbrage!

Little Red Hat, Top Bunk,

thanks, good points I didn't think about!

Ground staff
 

Flaps 40, a good post, and I do know that there are some members who take the good riddance approach. However having worked on the ground a long time myself, I do know that 90 per cent of shall we say experienced ground staff, will prevent passengers who they believe to be unruly from getting to a flight. They themselves are often under tremendous pressure to get the flight away on time, and are often working with minimal staff in a highly charged environment and often simply do not have the time or opportunity to assess every passenger, other than the mandatory check in and gate proceedures ! We are forbidden absolutly from leaving an offloaded passengers bag on board, due to DFT AAA regulations 2002.

I would like to make a comment here also that the whole process of flying contributes dramatically to the stress many passengers feel, and this often comes out when they are onboard. They often arrive for flights, having got up very early, having paid a lot of money, needing to have all their peices of paper in order. Often with families or going to work, they have a hectic time travelling to the airport on roads and trains etc. Then they arrive at the airport in complete confusions, queing for ages at check in and security and gates, long walks through an unfamiliar airport, were they feel they are under strict observation and scrutiny. Not being able to find anyone who can answer their questions. They are ripped off with extortionate prices in the airport for just about everything, usually had a row with the missus/ husband, throw into this a lethal cocktail of alchohol and fear of flying and there you have it, a bomb waiting to go off metaphorically.

I do not know all the answers to these questions, but the halting of the free availability of alchohol and the rip off culture emplyed by the airports, might go some way to alleviating some of these problems.

This is actually a daydream of mine (although it will never come true!)...alcohol being forbidden on board any aircraft, at any airport and no duty free alcohol either (or it would go straight in the hold...what I mean is, not accessible).

I'm not saying that it would solve all the problems, or that all cases of disruptive passengers would disappear but I believe it would narrow it down quite considerably.

Anyway, it will never happen so keep offloading them if you have the chance. I find that you usually only find out in the air if you have someone nasty on board. Fingers crossed, I only ever had one arrested on arrival. That wasn't nice, and I hope I won't have to do it again. Guy cooked his own goose though, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if necessary.

Good thread!

Hey People,

As one of those people from the other side of the flight deck door who don't have to deal with these idiots often let me put in my one and a half pence worth.

As you say there is a balance to be struck...and you guys are better trained than I am in dealing with this kind of hostility.

Early in my career I tried to rationalise what my respone should be if the (at that time single) cabin crew member (Jetstream) decided to get me involved.

The problem I have with this is that if you let bad behaviour go...you are condoning it. Other pax see it ...and some will believe they can get away with it on their next flight.

My simplistic answer was that if they swear at you (directly or indirectly...under their breath or otherwise) they had stepped over the line.

The first line of defence (as someone said) is at the gate. I specifically ask the ground staff have there been any problem pax...if so I go and have a chat and if unhappy offload them then (when there is time to get their bags off)

If we were on stand I would get them just outside the aircraft and go on a zero tolerance rant. Demand an apology be made directly to the crew member concerned...if not..or if the crew member was not happy with it then offload.

Taxy out I would go to an intermediate hold bay put the brake on and take them to the back of the aircraft ...same deal. In both cases I found a very quick transformation in attitude.

Would also make a PA to the pax apologising for the delay and explaining the situation....cannot tolerate blah blah...in an attempt to further humiliate the offender...again if they kick off...they are kicked off.

Problem child once in the air make a PA saying if the pax in seat whatever repeated the offence he would be met by the police at destination (and make sure he was) and point out that he will have a couple of hours taken out of his day in the police station. I have always been happy with how helpful the airport police are in terms of dealing with these people.

I am not stupid ...and I know many cabin crew do not need my help....or decide that they are able to rise above it etc...but IMHO if we are to reverse this trend then positive action needs to be taken (by one of us).

In the case you mention there would be an outside chance that the reason this person wanted a nervous pee...and was Mr Angry could be that he had some ill intent towards the aircraft. Unlikely yes...impossible???

I am not saying that either of the following are a good however some may not be too upset to hear...

1. When I had a guy fighting his mate during a flight the Spanish Police met the aircraft and we found out from the incoming pax that both of them had taken a heavy beating outside the back of the police van. The Spanish have a reputation for this.

2. Again not saying its a good idea...but one of our non conventional skippers used to listen to the PAs during taxy in and out. If he heard "remain seated" or similar he would jump on the brakes. Make some announcement apologising for the sudden stop but a rabbit had just run out in front of the aircraft. If we had ingested it into the engines aircraft tech etc. I never heard about any of the flying pax hitting an innocent seated law abiding one.

In case you hadn't guessed I am on a night stop with nothing else to do apart from sit in front of the PC. Ho hum:(

As a genuine curiosity, where would cabin crew stand when another (very burly) SLF gets up and tells the punk being an a$$hole that he'll knock several of his teeth out if he doesn't start very quickly behaving like a heavily sedated lamb?

Would you admonish the burly do-gooder?

Working as an actor, I often experience traumas 'in train' arguments while travelling to Eastbourne (last train, Victoria) wish there would be more support/customer care. Never happens on an a/c.(Air Southwest, good chums, although the Q300's sucks) Well done you cc.

flapsforty, I noticed in a book (that is probably the scourge of anyone in the airline business) called Air Babylon that ground crew can occasionally be problematic like that, although I'm sure when the company providing ground handling services does not have any connection whatsoever to the airline who you work for, there is even less loyalty to ensuring the unruly pax is dealt with before they get into that aluminium tube at the other end of the jetway.

Stacey, I've also always wondered about that... Would love to know.

S.

Having worked in pax handling myself in my early aviation days, before I moved into engineering, I can confirm that Magic Buff's idea about the 9.5 foot 200 Lbs gorilla works.
I had a very bad situation once in the arrival gate I was responsible for, with lots of drunken German PMI passengers and a huge delay in them receiving their luggage due to an unexpected snowfall, which forced the handling company to move half of their loading crews to de-icing.
I'm not a short@rse myself, but it really helped to have a loader of said 6.5 feet, 200 lbs of pure muscle and hands like frying pans standing at my side, giving the crowd a happy grin with his missing front teeth, broken nose and cauliflower ears (this guy looked like a professional heavyweight boxer) :}.
People, who were previously very agressive, just had a look at him and became very polite.:ooh:

I've seen the same at our airline. We have a few male flight attendants, who are into bodybuilding and if they are on board, even with our Morrocco flights (where many male passengers refuse to take orders from female cabin crew), there is normally no problem.

In response to Tudor comments, I love chavvy pax too, you can have a laugh with them and they generally sit down and shut up and are still a bit in awe of flying.

Gold card holder threw his heavy Louis Vuitton rolleboard at me as I explained that I couldn't stow it in an overhead locker. He had red wine in there and a laptop and they all got smashed up, shame! He threw a hissy fit so got offloaded. I just found him really funny, it wouldn't have been funny at 30,000 feet. He then threatened to 'have my job' and I told him he was welcome to it. In a previous life I was a dancer so I managed to avoid being struck with said suitcase.

I get frustrated but do I have a go at the cashier in Boots/M&S/Waitrose or the server in Pizza Express? Do I feel the need to throw a bag at them and threaten to get them sacked? I have never been in a situation where I lost my temper like that.

I Agree
 

I agree Virginia, I once was just outside the departure Lounge at LPL and we had an EZY to Geneva, unfortunatly it was four hours delayed, now the normal run of the mill Easy types just took it on the chin so to speak. However there was one arrogant business type person, with a lot of bling, who was demanding furiously of the young 18 year old PSA that she get him an aircraft right this moment.
Well she was doing her best to try to calm him down, what a sod he was. He lifted one of the computer monitors off the podium and bashed her on the head with it in a fit of temper (she stopped doing that job not long afterwards).Now at that point I decided to intervene.

Not being particularly small my good self or for that matter very nice, I demanded of him that he should bash me on the head with it and we would see what would happen! He seemed to calm down remarkably fast and became very apologetic very fast, I still offloaded him though! I dont think GVA missed him very much. He doesnt write me any fan mail though! strange that! I wonder why.

good post RMC thanks

I agree with Virginia, I myself never lost my temper the way some people do, even when I was under tremendous pressure and stress. But I guess we all have our own limits. But honestly some people get frustrated too easily.

I remember one day I was in a coffee shop waiting for my coffee. They were selling cakes. One of the cakes didn't have a price tag on it. One woman came and started shouting at the poor teenager selling them because there was no price tag on it. The worst is she didn't even want to buy it, she already had been served. She must have had a bad day and decided to sack someone.

I think we could spend days writting about different situations like this one, we cannot change the world, so the best thing to do is to ignore them and be happy. Life is so short.

If it's not a case of serious abuse or potential offloading, it's usually attention seeking. Some people have no shame when it comes to screaming , shouting, complaining loudly and generally causing a scene. I uphold my company's rule in that there is no excuse for being rude to a customer (though I'm sorely tempted on many an occasion!). I firstly sort out their immediate gripes, listen empathatically, state the solution, or at least what CAN be done at 30' feet and then go completely out of my way to bend-over backwards and be as charming as possible ....to all their surrounding (and suffering) passengers, whilst paying them the least amount of attention possible. Of course I'm still courteous to the trouble maker, but absolutely spoil everybody else, thus gaining support and hopefully making them feel small and perhaps a little left out! Playground tactics I know, but always works with the overgrown spoilt brats, plus how can the upstart blame me when everyone else has had the best service imaginable.:)

RMC, totally agree. Soon as a pax drops the F-bomb at the crew that's the signal (to me) to start the offload process rolling depending on their reaction to the warning.

Stacey, I once did have that happen, I had to explain to the 'do gooder' pax thank you for stepping up but I will come get you IF I need assistance from you.... turn to the rowdy and say "but offloading you from this flight won't be necessary will it now, we're all going to have a nice flight, you are going to follow the crew's instructions and we will all get where we want to be, quietly. Aren't we?" :E

One F/A once told me that she had a very obnoxious, drunk passenger causing trouble and behaving very agressively during flight. Until two other passengers, Hell's Angels type bikers go up and asked politely if they could occupy the two empty seats to the left and right of said obnoxious passenger. Instant politeness by said scrote followed.

At the risk of appearing smug it's threads like these that make me glad I went the bizjet route rather than airlines. Certainly there are some bad owners but I've been lucky enough not to have to deal with many of them apart from when working for a well known fractional. In those days the worst offenders (few and far between) were 'new money' and junior/middle managers. Those with nothing to prove were and are a pleasure to deal with.

I used to spend a lot of time positioning on commercial airlines while in uniform and there was much fun to be had. During a 'conversation' with a business class passenger who was talking over the safety brief I was informed he would have me fired. "I doubt it. I don't work for BA" was the cue for a round of sniggering among passengers and cabin crew alike :E

Another flight, this time with Air France, drew complaints from passengers asking the CC why I was being allowed to travel with them. After all, I was merely staff, non? On take-off a succession of loud thuds shook the aircraft and every head in business class turned my way seeking reassurance. "Don't ask me, I'm just the hired help" I told them and went back behind my newspaper.

RMC, excellent post!!! I can only say that, unfortunately, many capt and sccm dont back you up 100%:= and that is very frustrating...
I do understand there is pressure from the company not to delay flights due to bags being removed for the pax we are offloading, and sometimes they imply we (c/c) are the ones overeacting or being dramatic but I believe we should never be sort of "bullied" into carrying those pax who start being abusive before departure.

Dutch, it's difficult to get a balance sometimes as you have pointed out.

However if you feel the company is pressuring you unduly... here is an idea to keep in mind.

I was in a similar situation once, wanting to offload a pax, this was a rare occasion when management were really pressuring us not to delay. All I needed to do was to speak with the Captain and tell him I was feeling unwell, and wasn't sure if I would be up to dealing with the passenger if he remained onboard. Company changed their tune pretty quick when they realised we were all about to offload OURSELVES if they made us go with this (very abusive) pax.. :E :}

Thats a pity
 

It is a shame that you have to resort to such methods though, dont you think, having to potentially blemish your own personell reccord, just to get some backup, you shoulnt be in any way held to account because of an unruly or abusive pax. It is their problem, not yours.

As SLF I know that any delays aren't the crews fault, they are just doing their job and want to get home on time, as we all do. Much respect, I couldn't do it.

Worst flights I have been on are low cost ones into Newcastle on a Friday night, when half the passsengers are on hen and stag nights and have already been in the bar at the airport.

I have never seen anyone refused entry onto a flight as it seems to me that the ground staff don't want the problems of preventing someone flying.

Maybe all pax should be breathalysed as they hane their tickets over for boarding.

Thanks for the feedback. Wasn't sure whether I should enter the den;)!!!Will post in here again if there is anything I can comment on :-)

Virginia
Loved the riposte to 'I'll have your job' - it quite made my morning, thanks! :D

I do not believe this is the case any more - at any rate, BA have knowingly flying with my baggage on board, but without me, even with me informing them 4 hours before takeoff that they had put it on the wrong plane! I suggest it is just lip-service to safety, as incidents like this rather make a mockery of any supposed safety concerns the airline might have.