The Virgin Strike Thread II
 

The main problem seems to be that no one understands the true value of the deal. A pilot friend of mine provided me with the numbers so here they are;


Current Year 1 Year 2 Yr 1 Rise Yr 2 Rise Total
FSM 25222 26575 27918 5.36% 5.05% 10.69%
CSS 20259 21385 22305 5.56% 4.30% 10.10%
SCC 15548 16310 16887 4.90% 3.54% 8.61%
CC 13350 14008 14506 4.93% 3.56% 8.66%
IFBTS 16277 17074 17677 4.90% 3.53% 8.60%
IFBT 16227 17024 17627 4.91% 3.54% 8.63%



So that includes the 4.8% plus the increase in sector pay but excludes allowances which are what about £5.5k a year.

Secondly I'd be happy to cut crew in exchange for more money. How many crew do BA carry on their Jumbos we have 17 in the new config?

At BA we used to have 16 crew on our Jumbo services. After 9/11 the company asked to remove a crew member as a temporary cost saving measure. So here we are over 6 years later, still with 15 crew on our 747s!! We did manage to negotiate the 16th crew member back on some routes, but only a handful, so mostly we fly with 15 on the Jumbo.

PS. There is a huge wave of support for you guys at BA. We wish you the best in your endeavours/industrial action. I hope you achieve more than we did in Jan of this year. Stay strong and all the best.

And don't forget those allowances are tax free!!!

From cabincrew.com, BRILLIANT! sums it up perfectly i feel:D

As an old timer FSM, i've read all of the comments posted on here and there are some really valued points and obviously very strong opinion which shows the loyalty that most of you (us) show to Virgin. I must say that what LM, Steve R and that new plonker who has only been in the company 5 minutes from Britannia, (latest post on ifly, I can't remember his name for the moment) seems to be all about looking after our customers from now, basically stuff the crew, they've made their decision and now we have no further interest in them at all!! How about expressing their sadness that over 70% of voting members are so unhappy with their pay and conditions that they have decided to take this action and maybe trying to get back round the negotiating table to try to clinch a new deal?

Those of us who have been here over 20 years and have stuck by the airline through 2 gulf wars, 9/11, 7/7 and plenty of other situations that have caused major problems for the airline, sureley deserve more than just being told that the airlines major concern is now the customers and basically the crew who want to strike can get on with whilst Virgin runs an almost full schedule regardless!!

And what's all this about thanking everyone who has volunteered to help out??? How about when we go 3 and 4 crew down and work into discretion to 'help out'??? Overtime at £5 per hour, for goodness sake, it doesn't even buy a cup of coffee and a cake in London! Let's see how many flights have to go crew down over the xmas and new year periods, how many of us will have to work with minimum crew and still offer a fantastic service onboard and still be assessed by FSM's/CSS's to ensure the standard of your work is nothing less than exemplary!!

And of course don't forget, that when we take leave, we only get 2 (if we're lucky) buffer days to add on, where as office staff get two week-end's on either side of their leave plus all bank holidays where applicable!

And by the way, SEP instructors are on £28500 pa, even those who have only been in the company a few years. That's more than FSM's would get if the new pay deal had come into effect. And they are not actually management, they are trainers, FSM's CSS's are supposed to be managers and they earn less than the trainers, how can that be justified?

And all the benefits that have been taken away from the crew? Only one car park pass for newer crew, one request per month that is really hard to actually get for most of us, we could work both Xmas and New Year for two or three years consequentively, crew rest taken off the A340 for quite a long time so flights to DEL/BOM, sometimes nearly 10 hours without a single break, the list goes on and on. And then the company say we're being unfair by asking for a salary equal to other airlines?

All the benefits that we once had in this company when it was smaller, have now gone, most of us have a story to tell of something that is quite outragious and it has gone on for long enough and many of us who have been in the company for a long time are now just fed up of things being taken away and getting so little in return. No payment for 4 days SEP training in the office and not even a day off afterwards, many of us have to fly the very next day. SEP has become a total nightmare for most people and yet if we don't pass, we lose our jobs it's as simple as that! We have to be Dr's/nurses, Police, Firefighters, waiting staff, safety officers, security 'bods', sales people (DF) as well of course as being perfect ambassadors for the company and offering a world class service that rivals some of the best companies in the world! For goodness sake, do we really not deserve to earn a salary that is rewarding!!

We all work bloomin' hard and the vast majority of crew really do give 100% and are so loyal to the company and we really can't do more than we already do!! The company need to start recognising the crew that give so much to the company, remember the restraints that so many of us have dealt with, the medical emergencies, the sep related incidents onboard, the long horrendous delays etc etc etc

Are we really asking for so much? If the company manage to operate a near perfect schedule over the strikes, then things will only get worse in the future, disciplinaries will become more frequent, more benefits will be taken away as cost cutting measures and foget any chance of renegotiating a salary review in the next 4 to 5 years as the company will say they cannot afford it as a result of the strikes we instigated!

Ah, I found the old thread, here is the link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=300751&page=1

There is lots of information in it for reference, so that we don't reinvent the wheel.

for example in respone to Oxymoron666's posts about percentages and how much the deal was worth to crew rather than retype I refer back to this post from the old thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=211 which detailed how much extra per month a crew member could of had extra in in the hand. A lot easier to get an understanding of the deal in terms of ££ in the hand.

Regardless, the deal is gone now, time to move on.

Dear vs.lhr
You seem to doubt the figures I posted about just how underpaid VS cabin crew are, relative to other airlines.
You asked for the link to the CAA page that I quote . It is :-
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf

It makes interesting reading when you see that all the charter/low cost airlines can pay their cabin crew on average at least 2,000 per annum more, yet VS who sell seats LHR-JFK-LHR for up to 2,950 pounds are unable to.

Regards.

Firstly, good that a new thread has started. The old one WAS getting nasty.

Secondly, I am SHOCKED at those numbers posted early in the thread. I had no idea your current package was that bad!!!

Suddenly the inconvenience I may endure in January is put in perspective.....

vs lhr
My point in the last thread about those Unite members who choose not to strike and non members is this -

If you are not prepared to back industrial action due to a dispute over pay and do not think for what ever reason, that being a member of Unite is a good thing, then why should you benefit in any way, if the action carried out by Unite gains an increase from the initial offer of 2%?

I am not saying that you are happy with 2%, but you are not that unhappy to back industrial action.

You would be seen in a very kind light by your bosses if you refused anything above 2% because of the opinions you have already aired on these threads.
To me, this is a question of conscience.

I am sure you would be respected from both sides in this dispute if you stuck with 2%.

I know I am repeating my point from the previous thread, but I do think it is a valid one. Can someone please tell me EXACTLY what we're striking for? It's all good and well saying pay and conditions, but I need to know WHAT percentage and WHICH conditions? Without this in place, how can anyone strike? It would be indefinite and divided. The union recommends an offer, the membership rejects it, the union recommends a strike. This does not represent a united front. Every person I speak to has varied ideas of an ideal outcome/aim and the union are certainly not leading the way in this.

Before I can make an informed and adult decision regarding my position during this strike, I need these questions answered. I voted no to striking for precisely this reason.

Again, sorry to re-iterate but I didn't receive any answers.

It's nothing to do with whether you took part in action or not. It's simply the company cannot discriminate between union and non-union members. In the same way they can't offer a better deal to non-union members as a reward for not taking part in the strike (well, actually, they can offer bonuses for working on strike days, but they can't offer a better ongoing package just because someone is not in the union).

Litebulbs - I'm sorry I have to reply to this. Some who may not back industrial action may have in fact voted for the offer on the table at the time. Using your argument, and putting it another way does this mean if the vote had NOT been for strike action then those who voted for it should not recieve the enhanced pay offer?... No I think not.

I'm only a humble pax, and I support the CC in their campaign for a better offer...but comments like this will not aid your cause.

vs lhr

The company have already discriminated between members and non members. Crew were offered more than ground based staff.

When you enter into a collective agreement, you should not do it lightly. The majority of Unite members who voted, voted to strike. The whole point about the union movement is that you are a collective. You have collective strength and you will not always see the result go your way. However, you should stand by that result.

Unite has called upon all of its 3000+ members to support action.

Litebulbs,

I'm not getting into an argument about whether the company has discriminated or not. The point is they are simply not allowed to discriminate based on union membership. End of.

If they are not allowed then why did they?

Just a note to say goodluck with your course of action. I work for bmi and the majority of us support you guys I cant understand why you haven't proposed striking before. A few friends of mine went over to you guys and then came back due to not being able to survive. Your no 1's seemed to be getting a basic wage amounting to the same as I got whilst training.

No wonder Mr Branson is a millionaire. I cant believe they bus you over from Gatwick probably to avoid London Weighting allowance even though the majority of ur flights are at Lhr.

You guys have had it bad for too long I cant believe there are Vs Crew not supporting this action.

Good luck guys give em hell.
:ok:

MakingaSplash has hit the nail on the head. Whilst nobody clearly spells out what exactly they are fighting for then the dispute will trundle along at a snails pace with no hope of a resolution :ugh: In this situation the company most definitely have the upper hand, which is why they are confident they can run a comprehensive schedule with the cancellation of only 3/4 flights.

The union, who strongly endorsed the last two offers, have now performed a complete u-turn and are calling for an all out strike which damages their already limited credibility.

The union reps have not received clear guidance from the members which has resulted in lenghty negotiations without a successful outcome.

As long as the workforce continue to go off in several different directions, the less likely it becomes that a remedy for this complete and utter mess will be found.

Justanotherpax,

Thanks for your support, much appreciated. Likewise those that voted no and appreciate that the only way forward is as a united front I thank you for the private and public messages. Together as a collective unit we shall make a difference. A time of change is upon us - one of which other departments and management will not like and will (as Ifly demonstrates) try to paint us in a poor light, incidentally I personally feel it shows desperation in the extreme i.e. they know we know we have the upper hand.

Those asking what we are seeking see the union for details, many have been passing on their concerns and minimums they would accept, the company know what it is already but has been trying to pull a fast one targeting specific ranks and groups as they did at the last negotiations with promises of back pay in Christmas bonuses etc, this time however it has not worked. Makingasplash, there are pages and pages as to what we are striking for with tens to hundreds of areas of concern, may I suggest you take the time (and it would take some time) to read them all, rather than crew rewriting their issues, since the talks began the same things have been typed over and over and over again.

The ball is firmly in the companies court, they can avert customer disruption by returning to the negotiation table and offering a realistic offer which does not involve crew sacrifice.

Scoobydoo, you are absolutely right, one could fill a book with everything that was written about the subject in the previous thread. However, one person is saying 10%, another is saying the percentage is fine but the trip pay needs to double. Will there ever be a clear manifesto, a united one, which says, ok company, we want X, Y and Z and without this we will keep striking. Trust me, I have read all the pages. :ugh:

Makingasplash

I understand that if you take Pprune as the negotiation position of Unite, then it may seem disjointed. However, it will be the senior stewards position and views that will be put to VS at this stage. They will understand all of the wants of the crew and will also understand what is or is not achievable. This may have been the position before, but each crew member now has the fact that a strike has been called and it is real.

Unite have been involved in loads of industrial disputes over the years and will know how much a mandate 1500 no vote will have given them. If all 1500 who voted to strike are all flying on that day then VS does not operate. Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual. But the real fear is the unknown figure of how many others who did not vote will act? It could be another 1000 strikers. It may be none.

This is the first call to action in Virgins history. How many of the senior management team have been in this before? How many Unite negotiators have? That is where the experience is. If ACAS are called in, who has the experience in working with them? Will both sides agree to a mutually binding result? Who knows!

First, let me say that I have no axe to grind one way or another in this dispute, but ...
that is a very large assumption indeed, that all those who vote for strike will actually strike.

In the next couple of weeks, a large an concentrated campaign will be launched by VS management directed at each individual cabin crew member pointing out what the implications are of the proposed actions. What may and may not happen re jobs etc. They will also point out that crew who want to come to work will be able to park at xyz place, away from normal crew car parking and that there will be no picket presence allowed there and furthermore that crews will be escorted into report in blacked out buses etc, ie their anonymity will be preserved from Unite.

If it gets to a strike, then I would expect a hard core militant picket group numbering less than 100, and a very large sickie being thrown by the majority, and some (but not many) reporting for work.

The strike will probably disintegrate within a couple of days as people drift back to work as they see aircraft departing.

The timing of the action could not be much better for VS - January is traditionally a low yield month and Q3 at most airlines is often the weakest.

Following on from that, the end of January will see all those credit card bills coming home to roost and it will probably be 5 1/2 weeks since the previous pay check (and with reduced allowances in hand dut to the strike).

BALPA puts out advance guidance for families and potential strikers to have about 3 months of expenses put aside to cover any dispute - have Unite given any advice to their lower-paid members who can less afford to see a drop in income?

Having seen various actions such as this before, I wish you all well - I believe you'll need it.

Nice summary, TopBunk, I would agree with much of that.

The one point to bear in mind from that, and has been raised on CabinCrew.com, if you call in sick (when you are actually healthy), just to avoid working on the days of the strike, you would be getting sick pay when you'd actually be entitled to nothing. That would be committing a criminal offence because you'd be 'obtaining money by deception'.

An easy reason Virgin could use to instantly dismiss those taking part in strike action but claiming sickness. And I don't doubt that they will be checking every case very, very carefully.

TopBunk

1500 people voted no. not just 100 militants as you put it. If these 1500 were so unsure, then perhaps they may not have voted, like the other 1000 members.

Did you read on and see that in the NEXT sentence I said - Likewise, if none of the 1500 are working, its business as usual.

It is a shame that you do not trust crew members to have already worked out the implications of going on strike. Who says that everyone has not made provision for a couple of days action?

Lightbulbs,

This simply isn't a point worth arguing. You are saying those that strike should be the only ones to benefit *if* VS get back around the table and negotiate a better deal. Look at it from VS's point of view - they'd much rather be rewarding the staff that didn't strike, so they are hardly likely to pay staff that tried to damage the airline more than those that didn't.

But, regardless of that, if you have two people of the same seniority and doing the same job, an employer can't pay one more than the other if the *only* reason is union membership. They can pay individual staff more based on responsibility, length of service, training, experience and all number of factors, but they can't discriminate based on things like race, creed, sex or union membership.

vs lhr

That counts for any day!

Well written Topbunk,

I too am in the union and voted to strike.... only because i do believe that fellow crew members who have been there way longer before me deserve a descent wage, it goes without saying i have been in the Co for under a year i knew what i was going to get when i joined, but i am supporting those who have been here longer because they do deserve something........... However unfortunatley i will have to go into work when the strike is on, call me two faced, but if i decided to not go in and strike, the 4 days of work that i should of done will reflect significanlty in my wages and currently bringing home just under £850 per month based on 6 flights and trip pay, will be crippling to my outgoing if i end up with roughly £200 less in my pay packet, which i just will never get back.

In simple terms i just cannot afford to go on strike because it will just affect my monthly outgoings of over £1800 a month (hubbies help with mortgage) and i just won't never be able to recover the money i lost.:sad: I feel so two faced but having spoken to many other crew in my situation they agree that we are stuck in a rut, we strike because we are not being paid enough, but if we don't work we will get penalised heavily and so have no option but to work.

i await the firing of guns now!!!!!!

Who's to say their reason for voting for the Strike wasn't because (as was touted here, there and everywhere), Virgin simply wouldn't let it go to a strike, and Dicky would step in with bundles of fivers if the vote was yes.

Well, the vote was yes, and the company is preparing for a fight. You cannot say for certain that all 1500 who voted yes still have the stomach for a fight, and the implications that would have on their pay packets. Two 48-hour strikes, especially when the company is confident of the marginal impact, will not bring VS back to the table. It's going to take much more action. Can all 1500 still afford that?

Vs Lhr
 

Well, the vote was yes, and the company is preparing for a fight. You cannot say for certain that all 1500 who voted yes still have the stomach for a fight, and the implications that would have on their pay packets. Two 48-hour strikes, especially when the company is confident of the marginal impact, will not bring VS back to the table. It's going to take much more action. Can all 1500 still afford that?


THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY ALL UNITE MEMBERS( NO MATTER HOW THEY PREVIOUSLY VOTED ) MUST STAND UP AND BE COUNTED NOW THAT STRIKE IS IMMENENT.
WITH A STRONG PRESCENCE AT PICKET LINES VS MUST BE READY TO COME BACK AND NEGOTIATE
I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE OUR EMPLOYER TO START NEGOTATIONS A.S.A.P
TO PREVENT ANY DISPUTE

It depends on your view. Obviously thoughts are polarised on both camps at the moment. Strikers need the full support of all who voted yes (and perhaps a little more, if they are truly to upset the VS scheduling which is working to avoid disruption). The management need as many people as possible to report for duty - including those 1000 who voted neither way.

Taking the macro view, there is more pressure on employees as the impact on their wages is more significant than a few cancelled flights to the company. For the strike to be effective, not only do all union members need to stand together, but it will need more than just the 4 days of action currently planned. What I doubt, given the fragmented nature of the vote and the unclear picture of what deal people are fighting for, is whether the majority of crew have the stomach for a protracted dispute.

vs lhr

my concerns exactlly rgds will the crew have the stomach..... but if they do not then they will have no one else to blame for poor pay and extra stand by duties.
Hence the reason everyone must stand together to improve our pay to acceptable levels :O

• Unite balloted 3,137 cabin crew members at Virgin Atlantic.
• 72% of all members who returned their ballot voted for strike action.
• Strike action will initially consist of 2 x 48 hour stoppages.
• The first stoppage will take place from 0600 hours on Wednesday 9th January 2008 to 0600 on Friday 11th January 2008.
• The second stoppage will take place from 0600 hours on Wednesday 16th January to 0600 on Friday 18th January 2008.
• All 3,137 Unite Cabin Crew members are now expected to participate in the strike action.
• Your right to participate in strike action is protected under Section 234(a) of the Trade Union Labour Relations (Consolidated) Act 1992.
• Unite has begun mobilising for strike action. All relevant literature, posters, flyers, badges, placards, etc. have been produced and contact has been made with the relevant authorities.
• Peaceful protests/picketing will take place on 9th, 10th, 16th and 17th January 2008.
• This will be co-ordinated in the run up to the action and we are currently exploring the most appropriate establishments to highlight the protests.
• Confirmation of these establishments will be made known to our members prior to the action taking place.
• Maximum support by all Unite members available to participate in the protest is essential.
• Unite will further update our members on 4th January 2008. Unite members do not need to do anything else in the meantime.
• We have always stated that we would be prepared to meet if the company wishes to engage in further discussions.
• The company may attempt to undermine our efforts during the forthcoming period. They have failed to do this up to now and we are sure you will not be unsettled by any further attempts by the company in this respect.
• Your support from the outset of this dispute has been crucial. With your continued support we are certain that an agreeable resolution can be found.
• Finally, you have given Virgin Atlantic a consistent message throughout this dispute. It is now time for them to listen!!

Litebulb

I do not think that you understand the human pysche very well.

Striking/not working and picketing are very different animals. OK, so 1500 voted for strike action; how many do you think will actually have their faces seen and photographed by VS on the picket line - for sure that is what will happen. What happens then in future, the management know who the 'trouble makers' are and they may well be 'marked' people.

That fact will deter many from being on the picket line, hence my comment of '100 militants'.

There is already a poster above saying that they voted yes to strike, but won't due to financial reasons.

There is a big difference between putting a tick in a box to strike and actually walking out (as opposed to calling in sick).

The no(n)-voters are unlikely to strike, but may well go sick instead. Ok, you could argue that it has the same affect in that people are not at work, but the company will see it as a lack of solidarity.

Be in no doubt, the propaganda campaign will unnerve and terrify the young cabin crew members who may think right now that it is a laugh when they are in a group; but when sitting at home with a £120 phone bill, £500 rent to pay and £1000 on the credit cards from Xmas, there will be many people in tears and calling the company in desperation.

It's not a question as to whether or not I trust crew members who have voted yes, I am irrelevant in what happens as I have no vested interests as I work for BA.

All I am doing is pointing out the likely roadmap for the next days and weeks so that you may be aware of the possibilities and think through the implications/consequences.

sorry dont earn enough to get £1000 on the credit card, must be nice though :bored:

As for calling the company in desperation, I honestly dont think so. I do agree however that being on a picket line and striking are 2 different things. One you dont have to get out of your bed for the other you do, so in essence you dont technically have to walk out, more - walk in :)

Rubyrocks,

I understand your post, having only joined in March it is perhaps hard for you to appreciate what has happened to our conditions over the years in the airline (I dont mean to sound condescending and apologise if I do). The 3rd long post on this thread taken from cabincrew,com summaries it beautifully. Being a 28 year old living in London I fully understand your plight regarding having to come to work due to financial constraints, however the big picture is this is the very thing we are tying to improve so that we dont have to live perhaps quiet so hand to mouth.

You obviously feel it is worth being a union member so soon in your career with the airline which is great news, you obviously also appreciate that they are there to protect us in various matters. What weight do you feel the union will have in any further negotiations in years to come if its members do not back them now ?

I know you are thinking about tomorrow and can you pay this bill and that bill, but what about next year and the year after, this is long term planning for the future, not just for the month

I refer to a post from cc.com rather than retyping...

This is what get's me - the people who say they cannot afford to go on strike.... D'UH :ugh:

The reason why people have voted and will go on strike, is because they cannot afford to keep accepting a poor salary .... If you did fight for, and secure a better salary , then you wouldn't have to worry about going on strike, you may have the luxury of having a few extra pounds in your pocket each month, to pay that bill you are worrying about ....

You have a good chance at this guys, virgin pr will go into overdrive now, and its up to you to seek the best advice in what they say and build on a brighter and more deserved future :ok:

Good Luck to the Virgin Cabin Crew, from an occasional passenger, I really do hope you win.....

.....sadly, I think it much more likely you will get creamed!

I'll be delighted (and I mean that) to be proved wrong in due course, but all the signs of an impending disaster are present.

The few crew I've talked to seem blissfully naive or unaware about the management PR blitzkreig that is about to be unleashed upon them by their caring, union-friendly, avuncular, pullover clad, boss.

Will they stand up to the pressure? Not the ones I've met!

I really hope Unite knows what it is doing!

It's very easy to throw out a sentence like that, but unless you offer reasons why you think that way, it's meaningless. Everything I've seen so far suggests the opposite. At the moment, we still don't even know what the crew are striking for. The union not understanding that simple point is why we're in the mess we're in now.

2shoes

Good point, hadnt thought about that, so yes each strike will compound the impact of the next set of 48 hour strikes, i.e. snowball (seasonal) effect. That is just based on our ones, add the BAA to the mixer and the snowball has just gone off piste.

incidently did anyone see what the actual numbers were of the outcome of the BAA vote (1946 members voted, 1108 voted yes to strike) less than us.

so

BAA 24 hours 7th Jan (Monday)
Virgin 48 hours 9th-11th (Wed, Thur)
BAA 24 hours 14th Jan (Monday)
Virgin 16th - 18th Jan (Wed, Thu)
BAA 24 hours 17th Jan (Friday)

I wonder how the days were picked, BAA have gone for having a few long weekends and we go for mid week.

"If the forcested 24 VAA flights are cancelled on 7th jan then hundreds of crew will be downroute an extra night and therefore be entitled to 2 days off on their return to UK(or 3 depending on destination)." {sic}

Why not operate from somewhere non BAA like Luton to avoid the BAA strike? The bus trip would suck but better than not travelling.