Virgin Blue EBA
 

Just urging all VB CC to attend the EBA forums.
Ask as many questions as you can. This is our chance to get the next EBA right for us. Get the information first hand rather than rely on rumours.
Sydney 7/4 10:00-12:00
Gold Coast 7/4 16:00-18:00
Melbourne 12/4 10:00-12:00; 13:00-15:00; 16:00-18:00
Melbourne 13/4 08:30-10:30; 11:00-13:00; 14:00-16:00
Brisbane 19/4 08:00-10:00; 11:00-13:00; 14:00-16:00
Brisbane 20/4 10:00-12:00; 14:00-16:00; 17:00-19:00
Post all relevent info here and don't forget to tell the other crew how to find it!

Gotta keep this on the first page just in case there are Virgins out there who read this.
Get involved and get what you want not just what the company wants.

Its really REALLY important that we all attend these meetings and encourage as many other crew as possible - we MUST be informed on what we are voting on, this CAP371 has the potential to make or break us depending on the way its applied to our work rules.

Oh and by the way they are saying SEPTEMBER for our eba - one year after the current one expired :hmm:

eba
 

hey guys
Im new to DJ.. can you tell me whats going on?:)

EBA INFO SESSION TOMORROW MELBOURNE

1000- 1200
1300 - 1500
1600 - 1800

Gate 10 Office

We should all be going to these sessions - speak our minds - sort the facts from the fiction! I think we have a chance to make our working lives much better.

Make the effort!

Did anyone go to the EBA forum on the Gold Coast the other day?? I heard from someone today who went to one of the "Chappell Unplugged" sessions that they are getting rid of part-time, and are looking to replace it (over the next few years) with some other sort of system. Does any-one have any details on this? Was it bought up at any of the forums?

I am currently on holidays and am unable to make it to any of the forums so any info posted on here would really help me!

Ta
love Smile

Ongoing.....
 

I can't believe that the negotiations are STILL underway....

Get in there fellow Virgin Blue crew - have your say NOW rather than waiting for conditions that we are not happy with and are then unable to change!

Please keep us updated via PPRUNE guys - we exchangers over here in London are really keen to know what is going on - also keen to know about the 'backpay' that we are to receive (assuming that you guys are still waiting for this?)

;)

OzFlyBoy I think its fair to assume you guys wont recieve any backpay - I did not recieve my profit bonus whilst I was on exchange, even though I had worked for half the year the profit bonus related to... :(

And not sure if everyone read that book thingy they gave us in our dropfiles, but it said the EBA is not expected until September - and it definately wont be presented to us until the pilots finalised, voted and signed off on

I have attended one of the forums, quite interesting.
Looks like back pay will be paid next month then after that we will get the 3%pay rise as part of the interim arrangements until new EBA certified. Some new work rules will also be finalised mid May for us to have a look at.
The new PBS system sounds far better than the current one. Possibly starting out with 20 bids per month then maybe increasing. Also the possible introduction of Flexible Work Arrangements, where you can pick up or drop work, this will not be replacing part-time.
Just a note, Cabin Crew work rules have not been finalised yet, so don't believe what the pilots are telling you. VB understand that being on your feet all day looking after the punters is different to sitting down, asking for tea and coffee.
I'll make up my own mind about CAP 371 fatigue management system when I see some data, but all involved think it will be positive. Have to wait and see.
They are planning other forums in July to go through rosters and pairings under new FMS. So stay tuned.

Thanks Flying Frypan for your info. Good to hear some of the things that are being offered.

Just a reminder for everyone.... look at everything. Last EBA negotiations a certain FAAA employee had a bad habit of telling us only the good things and glossing over (lying to our faces) the bad. We got screwed and he got a job with VB cabin crew management. Hopefully we will be better looked after this time, but for many of us the wound is still hurting!!!

I just want an EBA that is fair- one that looks after the crew(keeps us happy and healthy),and allows the company to grow. (Bugger- someone just woke me up from my day-dream:E )

CAP 371 is being introduced by the company for one reason only and that is to increase productivity. This fatigue management system, PBS and the international carrots are there to help sell CAP 371.

I can understand that the FAAA and VB want to increase our productivity because the pay rises we are getting have to come from somewhere. However I expect you will be working closer to the 140 hours a month as opposed to the current rosters where you get on average about 100 hours a month.

CAP 371 comes from the UK and I would love to know what sort of EBA's (contracts) are in place in the UK. Our new PBS (preferrential bidding system) is currently used by WestJet (Canada) which probably has a completely different EBA.

More research needs to be done by talking to our collegues in these companies and I await with baited breath the actual modeled rosters that will be shown to us at the next forum.

Meanwhile nothing mentioned about the rest of the issues that I am sure people have. Such as will there be a CabinCrew level 3,4,5 and 6 for those people who have been with the company for all these years now. Also why aren't CabinSupervisors getting paid more than crew. I am often told that some crew regularly earn more than CS's.

Make sure we get what we want not just what the company wants.

cap 371
 

hey guys can you tell me what cap 371 means.. im new:)

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...e=detail&id=22
Enjoy the reading. :)

Hey Wirgin Blew I want your rosters!!!

Hi All,
Attended one the EBA forums today, thought I'd share some info with you all.
Bare in mind that these are all proposed plans and are subject to the EBA being voted up. Also under this is the Kronos bidding system and CAP 371 fatigue management system.
-Possible 5 sector days
-Min rest change to 12hrs or duty -1 whichever is greater
-1-7 day dutys (if 7 day duty = 2 trips/month)
-split dutys eg sign on late BNE-ROK 10hrs hotel rest then early ROK-BNE all duty time
-sign off extended to 30mins
-PBS system to be implemented in 3 phases over 2 yrs. start with 16 bids
-3mth rollover for bidding satisfaction
-737 ops only under this arrangement (but are LH and regional just around the corner?)
-blank days can be nominated to work if you want to earn the big $
-9-10 DDO/month minimum... you work longer days you get more days off
Saw some dummy rosters and trip patterns and it all looks fairly good.
Sounds pretty positive. The new CC Manager seems perfect for the job is genuinely concerned about crew. That's a plus for me.
Next update in August with a draft EBA to discuss. Looking forward to it.

Frypan:
Love the PBS and hope that it works the way its supposed to,
however,
14 hour days are a possibility, 5 sector days are as well. Most days seem to be between 9-10 hours which is fine for me as it means more days off or potential for O/T (waiting to see what the offer is). 28 day roster which means 13 rosters per annum which under current rules would be an extra 140 hours for no benefit at this stage. Also Mel-Drw-Mel would be a single crew, no paxing, possibility also of some east coast-Per returns as well I guess, and potentially some of PB's flying if they decided to merge us with Kiwis.
Still need more information but the sessions are definitely worth going to if your interested in the truth and not just back galley gossip.
FAAA not present which also was a concern at this stage seeing as we are supposed to be voting on the EBA in Sept if all goes well. Waiting to hear what the Association has to say about it all. Currently VB CC is over 80% membership so if you aint in the union now is a good time to sign up and show the company that we are sticking together.

What were the dummy patterns and rosters - can you remember? I will be going to the BNE forum next week, but would be interested to know before that what the proposed patterns are like. I have seen the tech crew proposed patterns - ouch - however am keeping my mind open about ours until I see them and can form an opinion of my own.

Any word on proposed $$? 13 rosters per annum - are they saying 140 hours per roster still? So thats 140 hours extra, per crew member per year - the $$ would want to reflect that fact...

They had patterns and rosters printed in 2 a4 sized holders. Looks like a few weeks worth of reading for you Sinala. I was told they would be available in the DM's offices.
As for the 140 it is under negotiation and I would like to see about 120 per 28 days, 129 is the exact amount so I guessing the company will go for 135 and negotiate down. You know what they are like.

:rolleyes:

14 hour days! 5 sector days. 7 day trips! JFC! I'm sure I'll need lots of extra days off to recover from one of those. :ouch: Maybe they need to include remedial massage in the EBA.

There is no way I'm doing an extra 140 hours per year on the same money! 129 per roster is more inline with what we do now.

Got an email from FAAA. They said they weren't going to forums because they were not happy with the work rules. I can see why.

Not sure if I will attend in Brissie if FAAA not going - too much company blahblah. I am a bit curious though. If rosters are going to be at DM, may just go have a peek.

We work hard for this company, I just hope the appreciate it!

Love,
Adam:)

Is it true we have 80% union membership? If that is true, and 80% of crew got this email, which, according to Adam_Ant states that the FAAA are not attending the forums because they are not happy with the work rules - then there is about 2/3 of fcuk all chance of this eba getting voted in...

I heard around the crew room yesterday that the negotiations had hit the fan. I guess that explains why the FAAA are not going to these forums. Not really worth going to if you are just getting one side of the story.

Collegues I would advise that you go just to get enough ammo to go to the FAAA about what you want out of the deal. I have already spoken to them and given them my 2 cents worth.
Also it is worth going to hear firsthand what things are going to be like rather than listening to the bs that you hear at either end of the 73.

At this stage I am waiting till next month for more info about what its worth for us to agree to this. If the compensation is enough I am sure I can be swayed to vote yes. However knowing what the company is like I am sure that we will unfortunately be voting no in Sept.

Any idea what happens if we vote no under Howards new IR laws???

It would want to be significant for me to even consider it... but to be honest, we dont get terrible money now - this EBA really needs to be about improving our conditions

Anyone go to BNE forums? I was called out so unable to go. Just wondering if its bad news or good news.....?

I went to the one of the forums. My thoughts are as such (and these are only MY thoughts - its important that everyone reads up the full details and forms their own opinions):

- In MY opinion, the work rules are not good. The possibility of very long days (ie 4 sectors, 11 1/4 hours or something if I recall correctly) does not work for me - a 9hr45min day knocks me around enough now as it is. The fatigue management system is apparently designed to negate the tiring effects of long days, but I am not convinced.
- The Kronos PBS looks fantastic, although I am concerned at the 2 year 3-phase rollout period.
- Possibility (waiting for confirmation) that 15 hours min rest at home will reduce
- Trip break down, out of something like 1640 trips per month, included approx 44% day trips, then a mixture of 2,3,4,5,6 and 7 day trips. The long ones (5,6,7 days) were all only very low percentages (ie 1%, 2% etc)
- 5 Sector days are a possibility
- Split shifts now to include LST, ROK, SYD, MKY and CBR. This really irritated me, as we were told in the april forums "not to worry about the split shifts, they will ONLY be for ROK and there will only be something like 20 (cant recall exact number) per month" :*

My main view on all this is that IF the PBS works the way its advertised, then this may well all be ok. However, the problem is that if we sign on the dotted line, the work rules ARE gaurenteed - the success rate of the PBS is NOT. Meaning you can get rosters under these work rules that you really really really don't want - but too bad, because there is nothing in writing gaurenteeing the success of the PBS system... and the PBS system is the main selling point that was pushed in the forum.

Also, judging on the talk about $$ etc, I doubt we can expect anything higher than 3% per annum over 3 years - even though there is going to be an increase in productivity and a reduction in hotel and transport costs.
There is still no talk of how many hours per month we will be able to work, however under a 28 day roster there WILL be 13 rosters a year. They mentioned looking at being able to be rostered up to a range of hours, to give the PBS system the ability to give you what you want. I wonder what the range will be? If its anything higher than 129 per month, which is the 28day equivalent of our current 140 a month, the question I would ask is: why on earth would we vote in a system that is going to require us to work more to earn the same money???????? :confused: :confused:

In my opinion there were some positive points and some negative points, and I strongly recommend everyone gets to the forurms and keeps themselves updated on whats going on, so they can form their own opinions and vote accordingly.

Oh, and I have reason to believe that whats being said on here is being read and communicated back to those who make these decisions :suspect:

The BNE forums were interesting, although I was disappointed that the FAAA were not in attendance. All in all I have to say that so far I am not convinced - as mentioned above, the increase in productivity and the decrease in hotel/overnight payment/transport costs would want to mean a decent payrise for us, however I got the distinct impression thats not going to be the case. I too did not like the work rules, although the PBS does sound great if it works the way its intended to - but remember what they told us about Sabre? It has not performed at all in the way we were told it would :{

I am keeping an open mind and will NOT make any decisions until the full package is presented to us, but I would be lying if I said I were not sceptical :(

These are only my thoughts though, and everyone really needs to educate themselves and make their own decisions.

Thanks for the info NG Girl! I will definately NOT be voting yes for something that makes me work more for the same money! You also made a great point that once the rules are there we are stuck with them even if the PBS turns out to be dud (alla Sabre) - then what do we do?

Surely they must realise we are sick all the time with 4 sector/9:45 days - I cannot see how anything over 10 hours is not going to KILL us!! Maybe if we didn't have to clean/cater on turn arounds we may be less tired. Are they asking anyone else in the company besides Pilots/CC to work 14 hour days? I don't think so..

What about the second sector after the red-eye? Any mention of that nasty piece of work? Surely a fatigue mangement can't allow that horror?!

I guess the bottom line is we gotta let them know how we feel and keep ourselves informed as NG Girl said! It all gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Re the sector after the red eye: they said that they are trying/have(?) put in a rule that will ensure only one sector after the red eye, with no more than 90 mins in between

I personally have never seen 2 sectors after a red eye - I did not know that was happening! :ouch: :eek: :mad:

The sector after the red eye NEEDS to be scrapped altogether.. and for those who comment that its the same as a long haul flight or going out all night etc I totally disagree... a long haul overnight flight generally allows for inflight crew rest and a rest period downroute that prepares you for the flight home - plus as a long haul flight attendant you are much more accustomed to overnight flying, as it happens on most if not all trips you go on. Short haul is a totally different animal.

I know for a fact that it has happened. the duty was DRW-SYD-BNE. An 11.5 hour red-eye duty, arriving home into BNE at about 1300. The last sector was a deadhead and "yes" it was perfectly legal.:mad: :{ :ugh:

I didn't think about that one. Imagine how much having to employ full time cleaners and giving the caterers more duties would cost the company. :E

Smile - thats the sort of trip that scares me! I'm suprised anyone showed up to do that trip!! They always say they do that 'to get us home'. Never mind that you smash your car on the way home. I would rather finsh the red eye, then be driven to a hotel and then get some good quality sleep in a nice dark hotel room and then GO HOME the next day.

Sinala1 - though I'm not a long haul expert, your point is very valid. I cannot for life of me see why we have to do that extra sector - and limiting it to 90 minutes DOESNT CHANGE A EFFING THING!! - Thats what we get now!! Red Eyes are a fact of life at an airline, but they don't have to be torture! We are a domestic airline, and though like most of us I would love the opportunity to fly long haul with VB, until they show me the goods and I see SYD-LAX on my roster, only then will I consider changing the 'work rules' (and by the way I REALLY hate that term - its soooo modern-blah-blah-BS). Remember last time they promised us International flying (AKA new Zealand) and instead decided to contract it out to the kiwis.

I just wish they would start being nice to us!! VB is a great airline. We have always had such a good working life, but if they decide to screw us and it gets nasty we will just turn into another bitter and twisted mob of hosties like so many other airlines! I feel sorry for CSs who will be charged with trying to motivate disgruntled CC when they are disgruntled as well! Never mind the poor guests who will cop it when we are tired and fatigued.

Sorry for the rant - maybe I need some annual leave...:rolleyes:

love,
Adam

good luck getting some:E

oh you poor guys ... i really feel for you after having lived that life for the past three years ..have now left VB and I miss the people but not the bull----, and all the politics!

Adam ant...you are right it is a great airline,however it all lies in the knowlwedge of the crew..the wiser you are the more are a threat and the more information you have the more you want to challenge them. Why do you think they employ fresh new and YOUNG faces- not all young crew are ignorant, but the company is not exactly pro FAAA, so new crew are left to find out about the vices themselves and that's not always easy until you've been on line a while ...:ugh:

good luck and my thoughts and prayers are with you all..i know how hard you all work !:ok:

Thanks wingletts - hopefully crew will READ the EBA and we will stick together if they try to screw us.

Like you said its sad about all the BS and politics. I'm not sure the company realise all the good ones seem to quit! I don't know how many times I have been on a trip with a first rate crew only to learn that 1/2 of them are leaving or thinking of leaving. It makes me sad to see such talented people go to waste.

The reason the FAAA did not attend the last round of forums
 

Just in case anyone asks you!

Food for Thought
 

http://users.on.net/franksj/ftlsectortable.jpg

Based on the above image which refers to Flight Duty Periods, taken from CAP 371: Avoidance of Fatigue in AirCrews Section C, Annex A, Page 10 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF) and cross referenced exactly with the table presented to us at the Forums, its fair to presume the following scenario could take place:

SIGN ON: 1755
DJ 642 BNE-PER 1855/2245
DJ 645 PER-BNE 0000/0610
SIGN OFF: 0640

How does one come to such a presumption? Looking at the table, you can see that a duty of 2 sectors that signs on between 1300/1759 local time for an acclimatised crew member (you are usually acclimatised when signing on at home base) the Flight Duty Period can be 12 1/4 hours. FDP, according to the July Forums info which is available in the CCDMs offices, is defined as "Sign On to Chocks On at Final Destination" ie it excludes sign off time.

The example above uses current blocked flight times, albeit with scheduled departure times slightly altered - which can be done, to bring the current 1855 sign on for DJ642BNEPER forward to 1755 and therefore extending the FDP crew can be rostered to. Times shown above are LOCAL times too - so dont forget that Perth is 2 hours behind EST (or 3 hours behind SYD/MEL etc in DST).

Any thoughts?

Flew yesterday and with delays was exteneded out to 11 hours. I was absolutley shagged when I got home and that is just one day. I would hate to get a few of those in a row.
I wonder if the under CAP371 rules whether they have to clean aircraft and restock catering in the UK? This may also be another difference between what we experience in OZ and what they agreed to in the UK.
Also I would like to bring to BNE attention the fact that another 3 schools are starting in MEL within the coming weeks bolstering the number of non-union members into the fold. These people may be the votes that the company needs to get this over the line, remembering that only 51% is required for a majority. I am not sure what the total numbers of crew are now but would be guessing to say that MEL has the majority of crew seeing as they arent hiring in BNE and the attrition there must be as great as it is in MEL.
I will certainly be doing my best to make these new people aware of whats going on and offering up ways to join the union so as to be informed. Unfortunately some of them are just so happy to have the job and are on 6 months probabtion that they will just vote yes to toe the company line.
So I guess what I am saying is that for those of you who read this be nice about it but try and get these people to sign up and make them aware of whats going on. Dont ignore the floater from MEL because it maybe there vote we need in September.
:ok:

I haven't been to any of the forums but heard that a change the company was considering was that there would be 13 rosters (28 days a month per roster) rather than the current 12 rosters a year, add to this that it was being considered that we would get 8 days off rather than 10.
If you do the math here
10 DDO x 12 = 120
8 DDO x 13 = 104 :=
Even if we got 9 days per month off 9 DDO x 13 = 117:=
If they definately give us 10 days a month 10 x 13 = 130:ok:

As you can see if this is true and we go to a 28 day roster we are losing DDO's and working harder under the CAP.:sad:

Can anyone enlighten me or ask this question at the forums as I am on holidays for 4 weeks and will not be able to attend.
Cheers.
BHP

Hi BHP,

Its correct that under the new work rules we will be getting 13 x 28 Day rosters each year. So far they are saying it will be still 10 DDO's per month - what they are not yet sure of is how many hours we will be able to be rostered up to per month.

140 hours rostered in 18 days? :{

Heres my math. 130 hours per 28 days which works out to be 13x10 hour shifts with 15 days off. Some of those 15 days off may be available days as we know them now. You denominate and you dont get called unless they want to mess around with your roster or you may leave them and get called out to collect some extra cash. Pretty straight forward and not to different to what goes on now.
Give me a copy of the EBA to look at the finer points. Until then its just opinion.

Without sounding cynical, I think its important that peoples decision to vote yes or no in this ballot is based on what IS gaurenteed - not what is a possibility... eg 10 days off per month (is what they are saying at this stage) is gaurenteed - sure these extra days off are a possibility, but its not in writing so therefore not gaurenteed that we will get them - so they are not obliged to give them to us... we ARE however obliged to abide by the workrules

Just my thoughts...