What would you have done?
 

I am not trying to post an on line test but I like to get you opinion

Just last week as an AB6 was approaching for a night landing to major European Airport an SLF mobile went off. The F/A seating on 2L stood up (by now we were at about 5 miles from the airport) and asked several times for the mobile to be switched off.

The owner obviously did not bother to comply and the story ended here. The F/A decided not to take any action it was her last sector of the day..

Is there anything reasonable and practical to be done to oblige SLF to keep mobiles on during flight and remain seated until the aircraft has come to a comlete stop?


Rwy in Sight

I guess it depends on which company you work for and which country you are in.

In New Zealand where I worked as a Flight Attendant, it is a Civil Aviation law that all mobile phones must be switched off until well inside the terminal.

Rules and regulations are there for a reason. Last sector or not the passenger should have been reprimanded.

We had it happen all the time. 99% of the time the pax would appologise profusely and turn the phone off. However we did have one young lady who kept turning her phone back on during the flight. Between the other CC and I, we must have asked her 4-5 times to turn it back off. In the end I went to the young lady in question and informed her that I had repeatedly asked her politely to turn her mobile off. I also explained to her that I had told her the last time I saw her using it that if she was caught with it on again she would be fined $10,000 as per NZ and CAA law. Upon landing, surely enough her phone rang!! The CSM on the flight got up out of her seat, took the phone off the young lady, switched it off and she was handed over to security, fined $10,000 and banned to fly with the airline.

At the end of the day you give the passenger a "warning letter" and take their name and address which usually puts the woolies up some people. Taking people to court is a costly and lengthy experience so no wonder airlines don't bother too often.

I have seen on Malev hosties taking phones out of people's hands and confiscating them for the duration of the flight.... but this just leads to major agro and abuse from the customer. I guess you have to judge it on the spot - most customers if harrased enough will keep those blooming things switched off eventually.

If you ask a reasonable request from a pax and they do not obey it, then inform the captain and the pax will be arrested on arrival by police. Make sure the police come on board the aircraft with all the other pax still seated and have the pax in question escorted off. The embarassment should be enough punishment for there crime.

They police will release them after about 1 hour or so.

And make sure you have a report written to give to the police or you too might have to wait for an hour.:O

The mobile phone thing is a case of 'oh that doesn't apply to me!'

Just yesterday I had two pax using their phones on the tarmac, right next to a bloody fuel truck!! Did I go off at them!!!

And the response? Blank stares and the obvious thought going through their brain "but why?"

I'm over trying to say it nicely when they do stupid thigns like that - especially after multiple PA's on board the a/c asking them to keep phones off until WELL INSIDE THE TERMINAL BLDG!!!

KiwiGal, I may just use that legal threat on them next time!!! :E

Can be a bit embarassing, when, after asking pax to switch off their phone, some contractor happens to wlak by talking on one!!! Red face all round, then again I've found telling off said staff member helps also - the pax see everyone has to go by the rules!!

Dunno if I could be gutsy enough to take a phone off a pax - though I have seen a captain do it once - so think I would just ask them to! lol!!! :p

Probably because they understood (as you clearly do not) that there is no chance of mobile phones causing any problems with fuel trucks. There has never ever been a single case of this; all the people on the apron are carrying radios and mobile phones all the time anyway - do you "go off" at them? I guess you are Australian - they are the most ludicrously backward in senseless regulations (and completely spurious justifications) in this field.

And perhaps that doesn't matter, Chris. Rules is rules and regardless of what could or could not happen as a result of using phones on the tarmac, the airline has told passengers to switch them off and that is what must be done.

We all know that phones have now been proven NOT to interfere with aircraft systems (though I do believe there is chance they still could) and most of our passengers now know this too as many airlines begin to allow them to be used during taxi, but the fact is that you must abide by the rules of the airline you're travelling with.

If we say TURN IT OFF, you TURN IT OFF. I don't want to hear "but American say it's OK". I don't give a sh1t to tell you the truth. My bosses, my Captain, my CSD and my Purser say that on this BA flight you can't use your phone and that's it. It goes off, or I take it (I have done in the past and I will do again in the future).

Not if you read this:

February 28, 2006 A study by Carnegie Mellon University researchers in the Department of Engineering and Public Policy (EPP) has found that cell phones and other portable electronic devices, like laptops and game-playing devices, can pose dangers to the normal operation of critical electronics on airplanes. The study will be featured in an article appearing in the March issue of IEEE Spectrum.

“We found that the risk posed by these portable devices is higher than previously believed,” said Bill Strauss, who recently completed his Ph.D. in EPP at Carnegie Mellon. “These devices can disrupt normal operation of key cockpit instruments, especially Global Positioning System (GPS) receivers, which are increasingly vital for safe landings.” Strauss is an expert in aircraft electromagnetic compatibility at the Naval Air Warfare Center in Patuxent River, Md.

Full report

Well slap my thigh and fu@k me sideways that's interesting..... Thanks for that. Last I had heard was from some team in Europe saying that there was no danger - I guess there's always going to be a tug-o-war of scientific findings pulling in either direction.

Regardless of what the boffins in the white coats say, however, I'll continue to stick stringently to what I'm told to do by my employer - NO PHONES UNTIL ENGINE IS OFF.

In which case I'll take the safe route.

Eddy, thank you.

Chris, on this particular occasion, it wasn't ONLY due to fuel truck... the pax had, while on his phone, started to drift toward another aircraft on an adjacent bay, which was being attended to by ground service equip. Whether the phone would affect the fuel truck or not, I certainly didn't want him stepping in front of a catering truck!!!!

And, while *I* may know phones may not necessarily cause any harm, it's the rule on our tarmac and so I enforce it. Especially when said pax are regular travellers and should know better!! And not only for the fuel truck reason, but again, for concentration and safety. If one pax is on phone, another may think 'well you're not supposed to be on the phone, but I guess he is, so i may as well have a smoke....'

So, any pax on one of our aircraft ANYWHERE should always be told 'phone off'....!

After asking politely a couple of times if it was still in use i would have marched up to the passenger and said something along the lines of if you don't turn that off right now the next call you will be making is to your lawyer from the police station.

When i'm SLF now i tell people to get off their phones if the aircraft is still moving.

Striparella, yes, I have the regs in mind which I will quote at them!! Re: the $10,000 fine aka the GorgeousKiwiGirl method :E

Once an airline worker, always an airline worker!! i can't help telling pax off when I'm paxing, either!!! :8

Mobile phones DO cause interference with systems. I know this from experience.

1. When I was doing my private license, I had my phone in my bag in the back of the plane and on the day of my first solo I was nervous and forgot to turn it off. On finals I got interference in my headset when my phone started ringing.

2. About a week ago I was making my landing PA from the aisle seat on the A319 when the cabin address system started buzzing. It turned out that the guy in 21D was trying to make a phone call.

If phones can interfere with the simple electronic circuits in address systems and headsets they are almost certainly causing unknown havoc with the incredibly complex electronics in the average Boeing/Airbus.

Should the pax get up out of his seat and open the overhead to get at the phone or not?

It all depends how we define "interference". GSM phones will cause any speaker/headphone to crackle and buzz, but it has no effect on the internacl circuitry of the system they are attached to. As a matter of fact the speaker could be inside a radio that is turned off and it will still make a buzzing sound when a GSM phone, near it, transmits. It is the speaker's coil that is picking up the radio waves. While technically we can still call it intreference, it is happening because the speaker is not sheladed form external radio frequencies, and can't be bay nature of what it is. Any system, be it in a radio or otherwise and CERTANLY, I hope, inside an aircraft would be shielded and not be influenced by a 0.5W transmitter. So while it sounds very nasty the interference is only audible.

HA! That absolutely makes my sides ache :} . Ludicrously backward senseless regulations huh? I wonder why it is that AUSTRALIAN ports also have the LOWEST incident record in the world (yes, look it up) and that QANTAS (the Australian airline) and it's subsidaries also have the lowest incident record in the history of aviation of any airline still currently operating? Hmmn, "senseless regulations" huh? I think the records and lack of safety related incidents speak for themselves. Perhaps if more overseas ports took on board Australia's "senseless backward regulations" they would have less incidents too :ok: .

*steps off soap box*

DUSHAN - What do you think the captain hears in his headset when mobiles are going off all the time???? ATC tell him to go around, and he cannot hear that instruction and then we all suffer. Don't always go on the assumtion of what you can hear in the cabin systems, the flight deck syatems are more important

I don't care whether mobiles interfere with equipment or not - the point is you're told not to use them and when pax do, you've every right to tell them not to, and if they continue, use a bit more gentle persuasion.

It's the same as smoking - you're told not to do it so you don't do it!

Cell Phones
 

In the US you may use them on the ground while in the aircraft. You may not use them in the air.

Thank you very much for your answers. I did not make clear that the mobile owner was not located, picture a bunch of SLF to stare at the F/A without a reaction. So the guilty was not located!

And one more question: how can a F/A can confiscate a mobile? He or she can ask the offending pax but it can and would be ignored! What can you do in that case!

Thank you for your patient with all SLF.

Rwy in Sight

Take it. Ask the first couple of times but if they continue to ignore your requests and then commands, just snatch the bloody thing from them. Their use of the phone could put yourself, the aircraft and all of its passengers safety in jeopardy. You are allowed to take all reasonable measures to ensure that this hazard is eliminated.

I've done it before (at the request of a Purser) and I would do it again.

How can you reasonably suggest snatching a phone from someone? What if they are on the phone because someone has died?

Sure they are not supposed to be using them and we should enforce the rule but we should not ever treat all cases as if they are the same ignorant SLF who think they know better and are far to important to obey the rules.

6

It's a last and very final resort matey. I'd ask them a few times, tell them another few times and if they continued to use the phone I could see only two options available :

1- take the phone, turn it off and keep it for the duration of the flight (or until you feel comfortable enough to return it, knowing that it won't be turned back on)

2- offload said passenger for endangering the aircraft, for you never know where they will stop - now it's the phone, perhaps it'll be a quick fag in the loos next

Not only would I prefer option one, but the passenger, Captain, crew and company would too.

I see where your coming from, I just think that if confiscating it is an option your thinking of then you could get to that option sooner than is necessary. (not you in particular, just generally speaking). If you find that your getting nowhere then let someome else try. There will be someone on the crew that will be able to find a way round them.

6

Nice point well put! I'm thankful that we're all not faced with this kind of incident on a daily basis!

I still have the question how do you identify whose SLF mobile rings when all you have is the general are rows 6-8 and a sea of indifferent faces...

The second question is you still have an SLF holding and talking a modile (I really don't care why they talk to their cellular during the flight no reason is serious enought to endager a flight). How do you take it? Do you ask? He or she will laugh in your face and keep talking?

Snatch it? Then you open a Pandora box for you to sued for bodily harm to the pax ruining his/her mobile etc.

I think the solution lies to exorbitant and more expensive fees for using the mobile on board in the region or 500.000 Euros per 30 sec. 50% to be offered as bonus to crew and other SLF for bearing the use of the mobille.

Rwy in Sight

Its very difficult for someone to talk on the phone if your talking louder than the caller at the end of the line. Keep asking them very simple questions and explaining to them what is going on. Eventually they will find it impossible to carry on their conversation................its always worked for me.

Pin pointing a phone is difficult, if its in a locker open them up til you find where it is coming from. If its on them you should get close, you might find pax around will help you.

6

Under these cirumstances, an FA speaks with the delegated authority of the Captain ( usually double check with him first to make sure he's happy before I speak to the pax). I usually mention this to problem pax whenever possible, as in "The Captain requires that you switch off that phone immediately". This usually works, and on the rare occasions that it doesn't, the groundwork has been nicely laid for a hopeful arrest and prosecution: It certainly alerts all concerned to the fact that the situation is serious, and is being taken seriously, and will make it easier for witnesses to come forward later, and alerts others who may help if the FA is attacked.

I cannot, offhand, think of circumstances under which I would physically remove a phone from a passenger. It ramps the situation up to a dangerous level very quickly, and risks alienating or involving surrounding pax. However, what works for me may not for others, and vice versa.

Let's be scientific . . .
 

There is, in fact, little likelyhood of mobile phones interfering with aircraft avionics. The biggest problem is disruption to the mobile cellular systems from phones that become visible (due to altitude) to multiple base stations.

The danger on the ground is essentially nil. The airwaves at any airport are saturated with relatively high-powered RF radiation which is far more powerful (thence more likely to cause fuel explosions etc) than a wimpy 500mW GSM mobile.

It's about as silly -- scientifically -- as those signs in filling stations telling you to turn off your mobile (which, incidentally, causes it to do the very thing they don't want you to do -- it transmits a 'sign off' to the network). The same Shell filling station is likely to have a 50W T-Mobile base on the forecourt in the big sign that tells you the prices -- yes, they really do that. So if it doesn't blow up the filling station, why would your mobile? It's an urban myth, not science.

Having said all of that, the world is fiull of absurd and silly rules that we all have to obey -- so I turn off my phone before engine start.

DEREKL,
You are absolutely right - it is not so much the interference with the onboard systems, but with the cellular multi-station ground network, which have have nothing to do with the operation of the flight!

But if the regs say 'no phones on during flight' (and taxiing is already part of the 'flight') then those damned things should be off - even if it is only in the interest of the fellow passengers!
A PA asking the passenger in seat XX to switch off his cellphone usually works wonders!

Cheers,

Ikarus

P.S. Fortunately, our onboard electronic systems are much more resistant to interference than the legislators may think. But so what...safety is no accident!

the local EMS helicopter here has a standard moblile on the dashboard
so they can make handsfree calls to hospitals in flight ,it does not seem to affect the aircraft systems.
also if you go into any operating theater the anaesthetists spend half the operation talking on there mobiles without a problem .

Jettesen,
you are right it would be quite disconcerting if the captain heard the crackling of the GSM transmission in the headset, but given that the closest passenger is probably 10 feet away it would be his own phone. These "crackles" are picked up by speakers, so if you leave a phone on, in the overhead bin, near the PA speaker it could sound horrific with no impact on speakers and headphones further away. They cause this kind of interference only 2-3 feet around them. My main point is that the "interference" is audible only and has no impact on properly shielded electronic equipment, such as the ones founds in modern aircraft.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213367

You might like to follow the thread.

6

I think every company does (or should) have a set procedure for handling such events - much the same as companies have a procedure to handle responsible service of alcohol, smoking on board, disruptive pax...

- if you follow procedure, you cover your own backside, so why not...

- as far as the odd passenger who refuses goes, making reference to the captain and the course of action to be taken if they dont comply usually does the trick - if it dosent, one warning is enough! This is of course dependent on having a team that will support your decision.

The reason why those signs tell you to switch your phone off are nothing to do with it transmitting a signal, it is because there is a very very small chance of a spark being generated by the contact between the battery of the phone and the phone itself and thus 'blow up the filling station'. Think about it phone is usually in trouser pocket of person operating pump and very close to all those highly flammable petrol fumes even a tiny spark in that area could be enough for the place to explode. Try having that on your conscious assuming you survive that is.

infact the police advertised in our local paper a few months ago making a point of asking local residents to be vigilant about mobile phones while at petrol stations for this very reason. apparently there had been a spate of fires caused by mobiles being used at petrol stations.

they also warned of static electricity also causing fires at petrol pumps- and advised people to get out of the car completely, closing the door and not allowing anyone to get in or out of the car while its being refuelled- same thing, the static electricity causing a spark which when combined with fuel vapours ignites a fire.

i spose it would depend on how close to landing you actually were.if there was time,id get up and tell them to turn the damn thing off.if not,i would make a PA addressing the situation

Try being up the front end of an Airbus and explaining why the ILS has gone haywire, why one side is suggesting aircraft is on horizon and the other is climbing, and multiple false ECAM warnings. No explainations.

I have seen mobiles cause inteference to cabin IFE, as well as radio.

Who knows if it's just electronics going temperemental, or mobiles/ other electronic devices causing it. Either way, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Andie 74

A spate of fires -- really? Find a documented one -- I'll tell you now, you won't. Exploding filling stations? No documented occurence (caused by a mobile phone) on the records. I'm sorry, it's nonsense.

What about people locking their cars with radio keys when they walk away to pay for their fuel? No sparks there? No RF? What about the red-hot turbochargers? What about the starter motors and their huge sparky currents?

According to the experts I deal with, it is almost impossible to get a fuel vapour/air mixture of the density needed for an explosion in a filling station, even with a naked flame.