TV Prog - Confessions of Steward
Pukka PPRuNer!!
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Just my 2p worth.....
That supposed F/A who said whe was a student PPL and flew the a/c, but 'couldn't keep it straight'. So French ATC asked them what they were doing......
Wouldn't such an incident have to be reported by French ATC?
Aircraft manuoevering away from an airway with other a/c nearby....surley this is a possibleairprox incident, no?
What about the passengers? Would they not be concerned about this?
IMHO this is made up crap!!!!!
As others have already said, it's interesting how many of them would not say which airline they flew for.....
Wouldn't such an incident have to be reported by French ATC?
Aircraft manuoevering away from an airway with other a/c nearby....surley this is a possibleairprox incident, no?
What about the passengers? Would they not be concerned about this?
IMHO this is made up crap!!!!!
As others have already said, it's interesting how many of them would not say which airline they flew for.....
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Hello Folks,
Well, I thought that bringing the show to your attention might raise some interest. Anyway, I am just an ordianary passenger and I would say that on every flight I have been on I have found all of the staff helpful, cheerful (might look a bit hung over) but other than that all very plesant. Even when there is a problem passenger.
These sort of programmes casue problems to all sorts of industries and the main thing is that some idiots actually believe what they see because its on TV.
Lucky it was not SKY that did the show, it would have been worse.
regards
John
Edited for personal advert
Xenia
Well, I thought that bringing the show to your attention might raise some interest. Anyway, I am just an ordianary passenger and I would say that on every flight I have been on I have found all of the staff helpful, cheerful (might look a bit hung over) but other than that all very plesant. Even when there is a problem passenger.
These sort of programmes casue problems to all sorts of industries and the main thing is that some idiots actually believe what they see because its on TV.
Lucky it was not SKY that did the show, it would have been worse.
regards
John
Edited for personal advert
Xenia
Last edited by Xenia; 5th May 2002 at 09:11.
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If the irresponsible t$%^s who featured in the show are currently working in the industry we can be fairly reassured that they won't be for much longer. If they are trying to get a summer contract, or get back into the industry I hope that they'll get no further than MacDonalds in the terminal. They weren't given much rope, but they successfully hung themselves I feel. And those of us who know the truth still respect the integrity and professionalism of our collegues in the cabin. It's a tough job, and I for one wouldn't want it.
It was funny, and cheap entertainment, but an absolute loads of shoemakers. As said before, the TV equivalent of the Sunday Sport....
It was funny, and cheap entertainment, but an absolute loads of shoemakers. As said before, the TV equivalent of the Sunday Sport....
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Many thanks swashplate.
Now I’ve got his E-mail address I’m going to enjoy telling him exactly what I think of him and those so-called professional aircrew revelations.
Anyone care to join me?
Now I’ve got his E-mail address I’m going to enjoy telling him exactly what I think of him and those so-called professional aircrew revelations.
Anyone care to join me?
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I think that with the number of responses, we can rest assured that all the idiots on this program were cabin crew at some point in their lifes. I for one knew one of them, which is not something I am proud of. Luckily I no longer have to work with them.
It is such a shame that small minded individuals such as these, publically humiliate cabin crew in such a huge way. I dread to think what the Bucket and Spade mob are going to do to the crew this summer everytime they are not happy with something.
Scheduled crew may fair a little better, purely because the passengers travel more frequently, and therefore realise what utter c**p these people have spurted.
Myheart goes out to all you cabin crew who are no going to have to pay, for those idiots comments!
DEADWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many are still employed???????
It is such a shame that small minded individuals such as these, publically humiliate cabin crew in such a huge way. I dread to think what the Bucket and Spade mob are going to do to the crew this summer everytime they are not happy with something.
Scheduled crew may fair a little better, purely because the passengers travel more frequently, and therefore realise what utter c**p these people have spurted.
Myheart goes out to all you cabin crew who are no going to have to pay, for those idiots comments!
DEADWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many are still employed???????
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Max_Cont.... I sent off a broadside to Mark Carter (For it was he) the journo who wrote this piece. I hope others will do so as well. I was furious at the way all this was presented by a bunch of sad people by a journalist (I use the word advisedly) who was out for sensationalism. Got right out of my pram I did, and spat the dummy bigtime. 
I sent him a follow up E-Mail from my own personal E-Mail giving my real name, as I did not want to hide behind the anonymous nom de plume of Taildragger. I'm angry at falling standards of journalism and the lack of will to check a story properly, particularly in Aviation.
But then, the truth doesn't sell newspapers, and only gets in the way of entertainment.
I sent him a follow up E-Mail from my own personal E-Mail giving my real name, as I did not want to hide behind the anonymous nom de plume of Taildragger. I'm angry at falling standards of journalism and the lack of will to check a story properly, particularly in Aviation.
But then, the truth doesn't sell newspapers, and only gets in the way of entertainment.
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I’m afraid I’ve also thrown the toys out of the pram big time; it’s the first time I’ve ever done this sort of thing.
I sent Mark Carter e-mail yesterday. I limited myself to telling him how I feel and how the cabin crew colleagues in the company I work for feel.
I also used my real name. I doubt that he’ll be in touch though.
In a strange way I feel a lot better for it.
I sent Mark Carter e-mail yesterday. I limited myself to telling him how I feel and how the cabin crew colleagues in the company I work for feel.
I also used my real name. I doubt that he’ll be in touch though.
In a strange way I feel a lot better for it.
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Well, in amongst all the shock and outrage, let me just say that I have seen most of what was described in the programme at one time or another.
Anyone remember the Cabin Crew member that got a stiff fine in the States recently for spitting in the skippers coffee? He suspected she might have, kept the coffee and had it analysed.
Of course, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I have heard many cabin crew admit to "doctoring" drinks and food destined for the flight deck, and have seen meals destined for pax that have been accidentally dropped, then scraped off the floor and handed out as normal. That too is just the tip of the iceberg, and I could tell a thousand other stories in a similar vein.
Many cabin crew are underpaid, undervalued and overworked- it is not surprising at all that some will choose to hit back in some way at whoever has upset them. I know the ones that I have caught doing this stuff were usually just deeply frustrated. Of course, some were nasty people to start with!
The other stuff, the "larking around" stories, are also basically true, even the "flying the aircraft" stories. That happens a whole lot more that most will ever admit, I have witnessed it myself on several occasions. When a lot younger, I was on several occasions asked to vacate my seat to allow some buxom lass, whom the captain wanted to impress, a go at the controls. For some reason, the captains that did this in my company were all ex-military. Some have questioned why course deviations weren't reported, the answer is that most ATC systems are pretty tolerant of small and non-dangerous nav errors, especially a few years back when a lot of use were banging around with no RNAV capability. This applies particularly to the French!
Anyway, be outraged and self-righteous if you like, bang on about irresponsible jounralism if you must, but the fact is that this stuff goes on regularly (exept perhaps flying the aircraft, but then nobody is going to admit that, are they?). As with the C4 documentary, it has merely uncovered some truth that the industry as whole is reluctant to deal with.
Anyone remember the Cabin Crew member that got a stiff fine in the States recently for spitting in the skippers coffee? He suspected she might have, kept the coffee and had it analysed.
Of course, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I have heard many cabin crew admit to "doctoring" drinks and food destined for the flight deck, and have seen meals destined for pax that have been accidentally dropped, then scraped off the floor and handed out as normal. That too is just the tip of the iceberg, and I could tell a thousand other stories in a similar vein.
Many cabin crew are underpaid, undervalued and overworked- it is not surprising at all that some will choose to hit back in some way at whoever has upset them. I know the ones that I have caught doing this stuff were usually just deeply frustrated. Of course, some were nasty people to start with!
The other stuff, the "larking around" stories, are also basically true, even the "flying the aircraft" stories. That happens a whole lot more that most will ever admit, I have witnessed it myself on several occasions. When a lot younger, I was on several occasions asked to vacate my seat to allow some buxom lass, whom the captain wanted to impress, a go at the controls. For some reason, the captains that did this in my company were all ex-military. Some have questioned why course deviations weren't reported, the answer is that most ATC systems are pretty tolerant of small and non-dangerous nav errors, especially a few years back when a lot of use were banging around with no RNAV capability. This applies particularly to the French!
Anyway, be outraged and self-righteous if you like, bang on about irresponsible jounralism if you must, but the fact is that this stuff goes on regularly (exept perhaps flying the aircraft, but then nobody is going to admit that, are they?). As with the C4 documentary, it has merely uncovered some truth that the industry as whole is reluctant to deal with.
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And you did exactly what about this MOR?
I am assuming that because you did not discharge your duty to the state that issued your license, the travelling public, or the company that employed you, these incidents had your tacit approval. I also assume that you can supply the relevant authorities the flight details from your logbook.
I too flew none RNAV equipped aircraft and yes you are correct that some navigational error was tolerated. You had to be grossly off-track to be questioned.
I have also flown with ex military pilots, apart from being great fun during a slip; they’re every bit as professional as their civil counterparts. I’m sure there are good and not so good pilots from all backgrounds.
You seem to believe that this behaviour is rife throughout the industry. I disagree. I have never seen it, or been a party to it. But then in my experience all the crews I have operated with take their duties and responsibilities seriously. Perhaps since you believe this behaviour is normal, it’s endemic to your flights.
The other possibility that occurs to me is that since I AM a professional pilot and currently employed with a large UK charter airline and as I have already stated, I have never seen none qualified persons being allowed to fly the A/C; you may not be what or who you claim to be. To state on a public forum that you have wilfully and knowingly endangered an aircraft and its occupants on several occasions, does not seem something a professional pilot would do.
I am assuming that because you did not discharge your duty to the state that issued your license, the travelling public, or the company that employed you, these incidents had your tacit approval. I also assume that you can supply the relevant authorities the flight details from your logbook.
I too flew none RNAV equipped aircraft and yes you are correct that some navigational error was tolerated. You had to be grossly off-track to be questioned.
I have also flown with ex military pilots, apart from being great fun during a slip; they’re every bit as professional as their civil counterparts. I’m sure there are good and not so good pilots from all backgrounds.
You seem to believe that this behaviour is rife throughout the industry. I disagree. I have never seen it, or been a party to it. But then in my experience all the crews I have operated with take their duties and responsibilities seriously. Perhaps since you believe this behaviour is normal, it’s endemic to your flights.
The other possibility that occurs to me is that since I AM a professional pilot and currently employed with a large UK charter airline and as I have already stated, I have never seen none qualified persons being allowed to fly the A/C; you may not be what or who you claim to be. To state on a public forum that you have wilfully and knowingly endangered an aircraft and its occupants on several occasions, does not seem something a professional pilot would do.
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Do what I did and Complain
Complain to the ITC
If like me that TV program really annoyed you then make a complaint to the ITC.
GO ON DO IT - Just click on the link above
If like me that TV program really annoyed you then make a complaint to the ITC.
GO ON DO IT - Just click on the link above
I agree with MOR, most of what came up on the programme has happened and probably continues to happen in some parts of the industry, although unapproved persons being at the controls is nowhere as prevalent as it used to be, especially post the Aeroflot crash.
max_cont and others fall straight into MOR's forecast of "outraged and self-righteous". It might not happen on their flights (good) but that doesn't alter the fact that it has on other flights.
As to why people are reluctant to report it, I'm sure that in max_cont's doubtless utopian employment, 'whistle-blowers' are welcomed with open arms and accorded all the protection that recent (UK/Europe) legislation requires, and more. In most other places (including UK/Europe) reporters would find themselves sent to Coventry/ irredeemably failing the next sim check/blacklisted throughout their nation's industry. Yes, all of those happen too.
MOR is right, it happens (although I would qualify that by saying some of it not as much as it used to), and the industry is reluctant to deal with it. Remember all the "outraged and self-righteous" comment after the 'bottle to throttle' TV programme, yet nobody (except perhaps max_cont) could put hand on heart and say it never happened. That programme did a lot to reduce the incidence of 'bottle to throttle' problems, so perhaps in a heavy-handed way, it did the cause of flight safety a favour.
(Ducks down behind parapet)
max_cont and others fall straight into MOR's forecast of "outraged and self-righteous". It might not happen on their flights (good) but that doesn't alter the fact that it has on other flights.
As to why people are reluctant to report it, I'm sure that in max_cont's doubtless utopian employment, 'whistle-blowers' are welcomed with open arms and accorded all the protection that recent (UK/Europe) legislation requires, and more. In most other places (including UK/Europe) reporters would find themselves sent to Coventry/ irredeemably failing the next sim check/blacklisted throughout their nation's industry. Yes, all of those happen too.
MOR is right, it happens (although I would qualify that by saying some of it not as much as it used to), and the industry is reluctant to deal with it. Remember all the "outraged and self-righteous" comment after the 'bottle to throttle' TV programme, yet nobody (except perhaps max_cont) could put hand on heart and say it never happened. That programme did a lot to reduce the incidence of 'bottle to throttle' problems, so perhaps in a heavy-handed way, it did the cause of flight safety a favour.
(Ducks down behind parapet)
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Oh so predictable
As you say, Hew, he makes my point beautifully.
It may not happen on your flights, with your particular airline, max_cont , but happen it does. It is also largely driven by the attitude of the captain- even in your antiseptic airline, I'm sure there are some individualists who have their own views on these things.
What did I do? Went straight from the flight concerned and marched into the Chief Pilots office. The response was something like "bloody trouble maker, how dare you try to undermine your captain, now p*ss off before I fire you".
I should have left it alone, but being young and idealistic I phoned our Flight Ops Inspector. His view was that "as long as nobody is getting hurt, I can't see the problem. It's the captains right to grant such favours if he wants".
That seemed a somewhat inadequate response, so I called the CAA direct. They declined to get involved in a company disciplinary matter.
Of course by now the CP knew I had been on to the Flight Ops Inspector (apparently they had a good laugh about it), my cards were duly marked and not long after I (gladly) left the company. BTW in this company all the senior management (and the captain concerned) were ex-RAF- this does not mean that ex-military are any more culpable than anybody else- simply that they too transgress. That says a lot if you care to read between the lines.
I don't know what sort of blinkered world you live in, max_cont , but if you think this stuff doesn't happen your attitude is typical of the general industry reluctance to deal with these issues.
I agree, of course, that non-licenced personnel flying aircraft is rare- especially in recent years- but cabin crew shenanigans are most definitely not rare. Some airlines are better than others, and some crews better than others, but it does happen. Generally, the more the cabin crew respect the captain, the less it happens.
I did a quick poll of our cabin crew at work today, and five out of eight happily admitted to some misbehaviour or other, often with other employers. They made the point that there is virtually no way of proving anything, so they feel relatively safe in having their fun.
Bottom line- treat your cabin crew right, look after them and they will reciprocate, and that includes doing stuff that might bring the captain into "disrepute"
It may not happen on your flights, with your particular airline, max_cont , but happen it does. It is also largely driven by the attitude of the captain- even in your antiseptic airline, I'm sure there are some individualists who have their own views on these things.
What did I do? Went straight from the flight concerned and marched into the Chief Pilots office. The response was something like "bloody trouble maker, how dare you try to undermine your captain, now p*ss off before I fire you".
I should have left it alone, but being young and idealistic I phoned our Flight Ops Inspector. His view was that "as long as nobody is getting hurt, I can't see the problem. It's the captains right to grant such favours if he wants".
That seemed a somewhat inadequate response, so I called the CAA direct. They declined to get involved in a company disciplinary matter.
Of course by now the CP knew I had been on to the Flight Ops Inspector (apparently they had a good laugh about it), my cards were duly marked and not long after I (gladly) left the company. BTW in this company all the senior management (and the captain concerned) were ex-RAF- this does not mean that ex-military are any more culpable than anybody else- simply that they too transgress. That says a lot if you care to read between the lines.
I don't know what sort of blinkered world you live in, max_cont , but if you think this stuff doesn't happen your attitude is typical of the general industry reluctance to deal with these issues.
I agree, of course, that non-licenced personnel flying aircraft is rare- especially in recent years- but cabin crew shenanigans are most definitely not rare. Some airlines are better than others, and some crews better than others, but it does happen. Generally, the more the cabin crew respect the captain, the less it happens.
I did a quick poll of our cabin crew at work today, and five out of eight happily admitted to some misbehaviour or other, often with other employers. They made the point that there is virtually no way of proving anything, so they feel relatively safe in having their fun.
Bottom line- treat your cabin crew right, look after them and they will reciprocate, and that includes doing stuff that might bring the captain into "disrepute"
Last edited by MOR; 29th Apr 2002 at 18:20.
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Hew J; I must indeed be blessed with a utopian life. But then even as a new F/O I knew my duty and never hesitated to speak up. I personally knew several F/O’s who spoke to the chief pilot when they were unhappy or unsure about something that occurred on a flight. Guess what, they are all captains now; they were never sent to Coventry, neither did they fail an OPC etc. Perhaps if these things have happened, or do happen in the company you work for, its time to move on.
I have never personally seen what has been claimed, but then I suppose that my colleagues on the flight deck knew that behaviour like that would never be tolerated, even if I was the junior rank. Few escapades EVER stay secret for long in the airline world. On the turnaround you usually get the low-down about who is doing what to whom and how often. Things like letting un-qualified people fly the A/C would become an open secret. So fast, you would barely have time to set the parking brake. I am not so stupid as to believe that it has never happened in the past, just that it nowhere near as common as the TV program claimed. I am certain however that I have never seen or heard about it even through the grapevine.
You appear very certain that these incidents are commonplace; perhaps you would be kind enough to provide evidence. If you can’t, it remains an unsubstantiated allegation.
Mor, perhaps you could also take this opportunity to provide evidence of what you claim. I’m sure there must be a journalist out there who would love to ask the CAA or ops inspector a few awkward questions. They would of course need proof. Over to you.
I have never personally seen what has been claimed, but then I suppose that my colleagues on the flight deck knew that behaviour like that would never be tolerated, even if I was the junior rank. Few escapades EVER stay secret for long in the airline world. On the turnaround you usually get the low-down about who is doing what to whom and how often. Things like letting un-qualified people fly the A/C would become an open secret. So fast, you would barely have time to set the parking brake. I am not so stupid as to believe that it has never happened in the past, just that it nowhere near as common as the TV program claimed. I am certain however that I have never seen or heard about it even through the grapevine.
You appear very certain that these incidents are commonplace; perhaps you would be kind enough to provide evidence. If you can’t, it remains an unsubstantiated allegation.
Mor, perhaps you could also take this opportunity to provide evidence of what you claim. I’m sure there must be a journalist out there who would love to ask the CAA or ops inspector a few awkward questions. They would of course need proof. Over to you.
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Good post MOR !!
Most flight deck crew are well aware of the alleged foul antics of the cabin crew with regard to their food but turn a blind eye to it.
What needs to happen is for one or more of the culprits to be charged with endangering the safety of an aircraft, a hefty prison sentence would hopefully send out the right message.
Most flight deck crew are well aware of the alleged foul antics of the cabin crew with regard to their food but turn a blind eye to it.
What needs to happen is for one or more of the culprits to be charged with endangering the safety of an aircraft, a hefty prison sentence would hopefully send out the right message.
max_cont, I can vouch for:
1. A mixed salad of many small pieces of ham, shredded lettuce etc, being rifled through by hand to extract the ham before sending it up as a kosher meal: SEEN.
2. Tea and coffee pots being taken into the lavatory compartment to be emptied, an action that would result in a land restaurant being closed down immediately and prosecuted (and don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft): SEEN - everday occurrence
3. Cabin crew carrying out 2. above and touching the lavatory door handle, the lavatory lid, the lavatory seat and the flush handle, and then not washing their hands before going back to the galley to handle food: SEEN - everyday occurrence
4. As 3. above, except using the spout of the tea/coffee pot to raise the lid and seat to avoid touching them by hand: RELIABLE FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of one person's SOP
5. Personal issue ice tongs being kept in cabin bags and therefore touching cabin shoes: SEEN - everyday occurrence
6. Food all over galley floor, because of badly packed trolley and unsecured trolley door, being picked up by hand and put back into dishes on trays: SEEN
7. Temperature of food being checked by putting fingers in it: SEEN
8. Smoking in galleys (again illegal in a land restaurant): SEEN
9. 'Swigging' from drink bottles that are then used for service: SEEN
No, I don't have dates, times, photographs etc, but the above come to mind after nearly forty years in civil aviation so far. Not all one airline, but nearly so. Have I said anything - no; I have blown about three comparatively small whistles in my time (different employers) and the follow ups were much more akin to MOR's experiences than max_cont's. Coventry - yes, dismissal - yes, threats of violence - yes.
The subject programme did sensationalize the issues; rightly or wrongly it probably has to in order to get airtime. Would you sit and watch somebody on TV reading out a list of ASRs? Yes, it was an awful programme, but if it achieves the same change to the ethos of some individuals and operators as the bottle to throttle programme did, it might do some good. Blindly saying none of it ever happens is wrong.
1. A mixed salad of many small pieces of ham, shredded lettuce etc, being rifled through by hand to extract the ham before sending it up as a kosher meal: SEEN.
2. Tea and coffee pots being taken into the lavatory compartment to be emptied, an action that would result in a land restaurant being closed down immediately and prosecuted (and don't tell me there's no alternative in the aircraft): SEEN - everday occurrence
3. Cabin crew carrying out 2. above and touching the lavatory door handle, the lavatory lid, the lavatory seat and the flush handle, and then not washing their hands before going back to the galley to handle food: SEEN - everyday occurrence
4. As 3. above, except using the spout of the tea/coffee pot to raise the lid and seat to avoid touching them by hand: RELIABLE FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of one person's SOP
5. Personal issue ice tongs being kept in cabin bags and therefore touching cabin shoes: SEEN - everyday occurrence
6. Food all over galley floor, because of badly packed trolley and unsecured trolley door, being picked up by hand and put back into dishes on trays: SEEN
7. Temperature of food being checked by putting fingers in it: SEEN
8. Smoking in galleys (again illegal in a land restaurant): SEEN
9. 'Swigging' from drink bottles that are then used for service: SEEN
No, I don't have dates, times, photographs etc, but the above come to mind after nearly forty years in civil aviation so far. Not all one airline, but nearly so. Have I said anything - no; I have blown about three comparatively small whistles in my time (different employers) and the follow ups were much more akin to MOR's experiences than max_cont's. Coventry - yes, dismissal - yes, threats of violence - yes.
The subject programme did sensationalize the issues; rightly or wrongly it probably has to in order to get airtime. Would you sit and watch somebody on TV reading out a list of ASRs? Yes, it was an awful programme, but if it achieves the same change to the ethos of some individuals and operators as the bottle to throttle programme did, it might do some good. Blindly saying none of it ever happens is wrong.