Wow - I Flew Emirates Yesterday
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Smoke and Mirrors
The arguments put forward by Juud and Tightslot in response to the OP are completely disingenuous.
What does the debate about whether or not Emirates receives government subsidies have to do with the customer service offered onboard, which is what jetlaggedpurser was talking about?
I work in the aviation industry, but when I travel as a passenger, I couldn't care less what the airline internal politics are. What I care about, considering I've decided to hand my hard-earned money over to an airline, is a decent and satisfactory service.
I don't travel for work, so in that context I have done a significant amount of flying in the last 12 months, with at least 16 long haul flights, 2 ultra-long haul flights and a handful of short haul flights.
And I can quite honestly say that far and away the best cabin crew and the best service has been on Emirates. No question. Beyond a shadow of a doubt etc etc.
In terms of cabin crew in the last year, I've had good flights as well with Turkish, flyDubai and SAS.
But by far the worst flights with the worst service and least welcoming cabin crew were with BA and Qantas. There's no excuse for unsmiling, unwelcoming and generally cold cabin crew. Whatever happened to professionalism? If people are unhappy in a job, they should get a different job, surely?
The contrast, however, with the generally smiling, friendly, courteous and efficient Emirates cabin crew is marked.
What does the debate about whether or not Emirates receives government subsidies have to do with the customer service offered onboard, which is what jetlaggedpurser was talking about?
I work in the aviation industry, but when I travel as a passenger, I couldn't care less what the airline internal politics are. What I care about, considering I've decided to hand my hard-earned money over to an airline, is a decent and satisfactory service.
I don't travel for work, so in that context I have done a significant amount of flying in the last 12 months, with at least 16 long haul flights, 2 ultra-long haul flights and a handful of short haul flights.
And I can quite honestly say that far and away the best cabin crew and the best service has been on Emirates. No question. Beyond a shadow of a doubt etc etc.
In terms of cabin crew in the last year, I've had good flights as well with Turkish, flyDubai and SAS.
But by far the worst flights with the worst service and least welcoming cabin crew were with BA and Qantas. There's no excuse for unsmiling, unwelcoming and generally cold cabin crew. Whatever happened to professionalism? If people are unhappy in a job, they should get a different job, surely?
The contrast, however, with the generally smiling, friendly, courteous and efficient Emirates cabin crew is marked.
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What does the debate about whether or not Emirates receives government subsidies have to do with the customer service offered onboard, which is what jetlaggedpurser was talking about?
I'm not saying EK does receive a subsidy, along with most of us, I don't know, but there does seem to be a groundswell of opinion implying that in some way, they do.
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It has a lot to do with it. There is a cost associated to offering better customer service and the airline that receives a subsidy is accordingly better placed to procure a higher standard of cabin crew at higher salaries who are less likely to go on strike or be sullen and surly
I agree that simple logic should dictate that more money=happy worker. But if that were the case, surely BA for example, who are known to have some of the most favourable terms & conditions for their cabin crew when compared to other airlines, should be the happiest, cheeriest most caring bunch in the skies. I can only speak from personal experience, but that is definately not the attitude I have picked up from BA cabin crew in general.
Not only that, Emirates operate in a part of the world where Trade Unions are illegal, so no collective bargaining for improved Ts & Cs meaning the employees are at the mercy of their employer and yet despite this, as someone else has mentioned in this thread, they are heavily over-subscribed at recruitment fairs.
I personally know a few Emirates cabin crew, and they work phenomenally hard, on horrendous working hours for a pretty average salary taking home between £1,200-£1,600 a month give or take.
Yet they keep on smiling and are polite to their passengers.............
Again I say that if anyone is that unhappy with the Ts & Cs on offer with their company that it affects they way they do their job, then they should get a different job...............
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Flytiger,
I work for Emirates as a captain and examiner on the Airbus fleet. I believe I can set your fears at ease when it comes to the standard of "pilots based there" as you call it. At Emirates we have the highest standards, as evidenced by external audits done by IOSA and other independent entities, and from what I see as an examiner in the simulator and on the airplane. I would be a lot more concerned to fly with the so called Legacy Carriers where redundancies and furloughs lead to lack of motivation and deteriorating standards in their crew.
Emirates hired about 500 highly qualified and trained First Officers last year, many of these from these same Legacy Carriers. We have a rigorous training program and offer one of the fastest career paths in the industry for those that qualify. One of the problems at the Legacy Carriers is the lack of recruitment and training due to the problems in the industry the last decade. This leads to stagnation in the training departments as little or no new joiner and upgrade training is required, thereby lowering the standard of the Flight Ops departments as a consequence.
When I discuss this with my former colleagues at my previous airline (one of the large Legacy Carriers in Europe) they ecco my sentiments. Standards have dropped and motivation is at an all time low. At Emirates we have the opposite problem - training is at an all time high. We are flat out, but I am proud to say that we don't compromise on our very high standards. Our newly hired First Officers and newly promoted Captains have my utmost confidence. I should know, I am one of the gatekeepers of that high standard.
So Sir, next time you fly Emirates rest assured you are in the most capable hands in the industry!
Tajfaa
I work for Emirates as a captain and examiner on the Airbus fleet. I believe I can set your fears at ease when it comes to the standard of "pilots based there" as you call it. At Emirates we have the highest standards, as evidenced by external audits done by IOSA and other independent entities, and from what I see as an examiner in the simulator and on the airplane. I would be a lot more concerned to fly with the so called Legacy Carriers where redundancies and furloughs lead to lack of motivation and deteriorating standards in their crew.
Emirates hired about 500 highly qualified and trained First Officers last year, many of these from these same Legacy Carriers. We have a rigorous training program and offer one of the fastest career paths in the industry for those that qualify. One of the problems at the Legacy Carriers is the lack of recruitment and training due to the problems in the industry the last decade. This leads to stagnation in the training departments as little or no new joiner and upgrade training is required, thereby lowering the standard of the Flight Ops departments as a consequence.
When I discuss this with my former colleagues at my previous airline (one of the large Legacy Carriers in Europe) they ecco my sentiments. Standards have dropped and motivation is at an all time low. At Emirates we have the opposite problem - training is at an all time high. We are flat out, but I am proud to say that we don't compromise on our very high standards. Our newly hired First Officers and newly promoted Captains have my utmost confidence. I should know, I am one of the gatekeepers of that high standard.
So Sir, next time you fly Emirates rest assured you are in the most capable hands in the industry!
Tajfaa
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FlyTiger
Hmmm, what to say about the statement re not wanting to fly EK because of their crews? Firstly, I do not fly for Emirates, but have a good handful of former colleagues and friends who do, and as a measure of my respect for the work they do, I will say to you that I would put my family and my old self on an EK flight anyday. They work harder than most but the standard they keep is world class. In most cases I would deem it better than in most of the Legacy carriers as stated by the TRI who posted above. (Granted, he'd better say how good it is!) I make no comment on any of the other claims about subsidies or level playing fields etc, that's another thread as far as I'm concerned.
I first flew EK to Melbourne from LHR back in 1999. The standard of service the crews provided then was of the highest standard. Today in my view it still is. The only thing that has changed is the product they provide. The meals seem to have got smaller since then. That is not the fault of the crew. They are told what to serve and probably how to serve it. EK provide crews from all over the world and generally they mix very well with each other considering the different cultures.
Politics and religion however are something completely different and shouldn't be brought into the cabin.
Politics and religion however are something completely different and shouldn't be brought into the cabin.
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Going back to posts 23 and 24, mhk77, I also find it hard to understand why, if working conditions in EK are so bad, the crews are, as you say, so much more service orientated than BA (QF I don't find too bad).
I know a couple of EK CC as family friends, but haven't really discussed this with them. They like living in DXB and are both married to men who have high earning jobs, and they live in 'luxury' and have high disposable incomes. It would be my idea of hell but perhaps what makes them happy is that they live in this artifical world and can spend their entire income on designer clothes and expensive rounds of Chardonnay and Veuve Cliquot with the girlies at fancy bars.
I also wonder if unions are a bad thing. The rabble rousers who run them, and who profit from the members, stir up discontent and are constantly telling members how badly they are treated - when they're not. Whereas EK staff have no unions, so they get on with the job and know that if they don't do it properly, they're out, as they have no protection.
I am, obviously, totally opposed to Unions because of the trouble they cause. They may at one time have had a legitimate purpose in employee protection but I think now they have just become a weapon used in the wrong way and like many weapons, serve only to inflame situations.
I know a couple of EK CC as family friends, but haven't really discussed this with them. They like living in DXB and are both married to men who have high earning jobs, and they live in 'luxury' and have high disposable incomes. It would be my idea of hell but perhaps what makes them happy is that they live in this artifical world and can spend their entire income on designer clothes and expensive rounds of Chardonnay and Veuve Cliquot with the girlies at fancy bars.
I also wonder if unions are a bad thing. The rabble rousers who run them, and who profit from the members, stir up discontent and are constantly telling members how badly they are treated - when they're not. Whereas EK staff have no unions, so they get on with the job and know that if they don't do it properly, they're out, as they have no protection.
I am, obviously, totally opposed to Unions because of the trouble they cause. They may at one time have had a legitimate purpose in employee protection but I think now they have just become a weapon used in the wrong way and like many weapons, serve only to inflame situations.
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I have to correct few things... Especially the rumours that we work like slaves... As mentioned before, I am a cabin crew for EK. I am swiss and therefore one of those that grew up with a so called golden spoon in my mouth. Why am I here? Emirates provides an incredible package which is not able to compete with let's say Swiss. We do work hard, yes! But is that a bad thing? We get paid well for it, with money and benefits (accomodation provided, many discounts etc). There was a short time when we worked crazy hours because there were almost more aircrafts than crew, but this was only temporary. Concerning Capetonians post: I also am single and the money we earn is enough to lead a fancy life (without a filthy rich husband) and put a bit aside for later! The only thing which is bad is the currency exchange rate, whatever amount I put to my savings each month, if I exchange it to swiss franc it's literaly nothing. But I knew this before I made the choice to come to Dubai and give it a go with Emirates. I know many people, many of them CC and flight deck crew talk badly about EK, but I for myself never had a reason to complain. I've always been treated fair and been looked after well. And I have one of the best work environment countries to compare with.
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Coming back to the origin of this thread, for me its without question that there is a big difference in service level from the European Legacy carriers but above all the average USA carriers. The problem here is that the general public, in particular in the US, has accepted the lower level of service and therefore there is no need to improve. In the USA there is no reference towards companies like EK.
Together with Singapore Airlines, EK is in my expirience the best!
Together with Singapore Airlines, EK is in my expirience the best!
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Hi Capetonian,
I agree with you that if a Trade Union becomes too strong then in the long run, the only person who pays for it is the customer. IMHO, that is part of the problem with the American airlines (generally) and why they have such a poor customer service.
Before I moved to Dubai, I was a Trade Union rep. In my naivety, I thought I would be able to make the working environment for me and my colleagues better, and help colleagues when in trouble. However, not long after I started as rep I went to my first annual conference. I was genuinely gutted by what I experienced. The tone was started by our TU leader who referred to us all as 'comrades' as if we were all workers in a Soviet gulag........I very quickly realised that although TUs can be very useful, they're also very much a vehicle for others to feather their nests or for people to be argumentative and troublesome for the sheer bloody-mindedness of it.
For example, look at the dispute between the BA management and their staff through the TUs a couple of years ago. There was only one winner there and it wasn't the TUs. Any reasonable and sensible person could see that BA management were being pretty fair, yet the TUs were just spoiling for a fight.
Regarding Emirates and their staff, although I would say that the vast majority of their cabin crew are very polite and appear genuinely happy, there are always exceptions. Sadly for me as a Brit, the nationalities of the cabin crew who do let down their colleagues USUALLY (though not always) are British cabin crew......make of that what you will but that could open a whole new debate about socio-economics in the home countries of the cabin crew and the way that affects their attitude..........
I agree with you that if a Trade Union becomes too strong then in the long run, the only person who pays for it is the customer. IMHO, that is part of the problem with the American airlines (generally) and why they have such a poor customer service.
Before I moved to Dubai, I was a Trade Union rep. In my naivety, I thought I would be able to make the working environment for me and my colleagues better, and help colleagues when in trouble. However, not long after I started as rep I went to my first annual conference. I was genuinely gutted by what I experienced. The tone was started by our TU leader who referred to us all as 'comrades' as if we were all workers in a Soviet gulag........I very quickly realised that although TUs can be very useful, they're also very much a vehicle for others to feather their nests or for people to be argumentative and troublesome for the sheer bloody-mindedness of it.
For example, look at the dispute between the BA management and their staff through the TUs a couple of years ago. There was only one winner there and it wasn't the TUs. Any reasonable and sensible person could see that BA management were being pretty fair, yet the TUs were just spoiling for a fight.
Regarding Emirates and their staff, although I would say that the vast majority of their cabin crew are very polite and appear genuinely happy, there are always exceptions. Sadly for me as a Brit, the nationalities of the cabin crew who do let down their colleagues USUALLY (though not always) are British cabin crew......make of that what you will but that could open a whole new debate about socio-economics in the home countries of the cabin crew and the way that affects their attitude..........
I am a passionate supporter of 'my airline' British Airways and think that, on a good day, it is the finest of all.
However I recognise that there are many other fine airlines offering what the customer wants, and Emirates is definitely one of them.
This thread has drifted a lot around terms & conditions which, maybe, is valid however what the first post said about having a really great experience on EK should be reason for celebration for all of us in these times of anti-air travel.
However I recognise that there are many other fine airlines offering what the customer wants, and Emirates is definitely one of them.
This thread has drifted a lot around terms & conditions which, maybe, is valid however what the first post said about having a really great experience on EK should be reason for celebration for all of us in these times of anti-air travel.
Capetonian,
Except during a period of military service, I was member of several unions from 1957 until last year and I believe that there is some truth in what you say. Nevertheless, used properly, union membership is in the interest of those who do not negotiate their own contracts and I am glad to have been a member; admittedly of some more than others. I certainly didn't pay the political levy and
what the shop steward thought.
I see you've fallen foul somewhere. We should have a court area so that those who missed the fireworks can read a résumé of the charge
Except during a period of military service, I was member of several unions from 1957 until last year and I believe that there is some truth in what you say. Nevertheless, used properly, union membership is in the interest of those who do not negotiate their own contracts and I am glad to have been a member; admittedly of some more than others. I certainly didn't pay the political levy and
what the shop steward thought.I see you've fallen foul somewhere. We should have a court area so that those who missed the fireworks can read a résumé of the charge
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I see you've fallen foul somewhere. We should have a court area so that those who missed the fireworks can read a résumé of the charge
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I last flew EK in 2004 and am still waiting for a refund as a result of a "downgrade" from Business to economy due to an overbooked aircraft. We were lucky as a crew to be seated in an exit row so leg room wasn't a problem, but we refused to move once seated as the CC wanted to put a family with tiny kids in those seats before departure (a class one emergency exit, with all that implies) for the rest of the flight the CC ignored us totally to the extent that we couldn't even get a glass of water on a Dubai-Gatwick flight. I've never flown EK since and we won't use them to position crews either.
Flew Oman Air last year and they were magnificent, no doubt there is some form of tie up between the two, but Oman Air now get a lot of business from us.
Flew Oman Air last year and they were magnificent, no doubt there is some form of tie up between the two, but Oman Air now get a lot of business from us.
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Thank you for the re assurances. I am sure you have wonderful training and ethos at EK, and I believe that the prince has only the best intention for EK and his state, and everyone who lives and travels there.
The fears I were largely referring to arise from little safety valves that are present in almost all Western countries, and which to my shame I must admit I do not even know whether they are present in that part of the world. These safety valves, and the way people live with them are the only thing that make the US different from China and other countries and include: 1. A healthy common law legal system, with judges independent of the state and an independent bar, leading to a fair and balanced system of tort and contract law and redress for the citizen or guest vs company and vs the state 2. 20th Century rights of workers being at least allowed to engage in meetings, collective bargaining, organization free of supervision, striking (with notice, and if talks break down), and other ordinary rights available since the early 20th Century. 3. a society where everyone is valued as an individual and has rights of assembly, free speech, and other ordinarily available rights (see especially 1 and also 2).
If they don't exist in Country X, I won't be flying with my kids (or having surgery done) there. Sorry, that's just how I roll.
The fears I were largely referring to arise from little safety valves that are present in almost all Western countries, and which to my shame I must admit I do not even know whether they are present in that part of the world. These safety valves, and the way people live with them are the only thing that make the US different from China and other countries and include: 1. A healthy common law legal system, with judges independent of the state and an independent bar, leading to a fair and balanced system of tort and contract law and redress for the citizen or guest vs company and vs the state 2. 20th Century rights of workers being at least allowed to engage in meetings, collective bargaining, organization free of supervision, striking (with notice, and if talks break down), and other ordinary rights available since the early 20th Century. 3. a society where everyone is valued as an individual and has rights of assembly, free speech, and other ordinarily available rights (see especially 1 and also 2).
If they don't exist in Country X, I won't be flying with my kids (or having surgery done) there. Sorry, that's just how I roll.
N4790P
Flytiger,
I don't question your rights to choose but a supplementary query.
Do you single out aviation only or does your stance cover all aspects of personal 'trade'?
I don't question your rights to choose but a supplementary query.
Do you single out aviation only or does your stance cover all aspects of personal 'trade'?
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Speaking as a fare-paying passenger on long haul, I was impressed with the whole package from Emirates.
As pax, it can get very tiresome if you have to put up with grumpy and unco-operative CAs to the extent that one promises to oneself that you ain't going to fly with that mob again unless you can't help it. And, at the end of the day it's fare paying passenger bums on seats that pay the wages.
Save the angst for the pax that really deserve it and don't take it out on the rest of us. After all, you chose the job!
So, next long haul it will be Emirates again.
As pax, it can get very tiresome if you have to put up with grumpy and unco-operative CAs to the extent that one promises to oneself that you ain't going to fly with that mob again unless you can't help it. And, at the end of the day it's fare paying passenger bums on seats that pay the wages.
Save the angst for the pax that really deserve it and don't take it out on the rest of us. After all, you chose the job!
So, next long haul it will be Emirates again.
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I know this is prolonging the thread creep but I always laugh when I see the words 'subsidy' and 'Emirates' in the same sentence. I don't know if there is any truth to the rumour but surely the whole objective of running an airline (or indeed any company) is to generate profit. If I was at the helm and someone wanted to help boost my balance sheet, then I would be most grateful for their assistance - period!