Female Passenger, 25, 'groped airline steward after drinking pint of whisky'
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Juud --
While I am not condoning the use of recreational drugs in public when they result in unacceptable or dangerous behaviour, we need to be vigilant about the abuse of words. 'Drunk' can mean anything from a lager-and-lime that has no effect on the behaviour of the drinker but is a smidge over the legal BA limit, to someone who is belligerent, dangerous or antisocial. That's why earlier in this thread I raised this point.
I doubt anyone has a problem with using a measured parameter such as BA as a screen for people on duty -- from lavatory attendants to presidents and including FAs, and airline pilots. Passengers are another matter....they are off-duty and entitled to use legal recreational drugs as long as their behaviour is acceptable. Surely everyone in the travel industry wants the customer to enjoy themselves? Not at the expense of other passengers, or those on duty, of course, but are we going to have a BA limit for passengers?
If not, how do we judge if they are 'drunk' -- whatever 'drunk' means in the context of someone off-duty? Clearly those who serve alcohol have a responsibility to ensure that they don't serve it to those already over-inebriated -- that's been the law in the UK for over a hundred years.
So coming back to the case in this thread, and keeping in mind that the ONLY information we have is the Mail and Telegraph reports (i.e. this is an academic discussion as we have not heard first hand the story from the FA or the passenger) how did anyone know even roughly how much whisky she'd been drinking? If the FAs had served it, then they deserved no better than a gentle grope (provided there was no physical pain or harm).
While I don't believe that people should generally invade the personal space of others - that's a respect issue -- I do think that a FA ought to be able to shrug off a grope from a young lady. No, I don't think the grope is 'acceptable', it isn't, but it isn't such a big deal that the law should be involved or needed to be involved -- based on the report, of course. Neither of us know what really happened as we were not there.
There might be someone from the Virgin lounge who has some inside knowledge....would be interesting to discuss it here but that would make it a specific evidential debate rather than this debate which is academic.
Taking nutrition through a straw for a number of weeks, courtesy of a drunk passenger, focuses ones perspective on the matter
I doubt anyone has a problem with using a measured parameter such as BA as a screen for people on duty -- from lavatory attendants to presidents and including FAs, and airline pilots. Passengers are another matter....they are off-duty and entitled to use legal recreational drugs as long as their behaviour is acceptable. Surely everyone in the travel industry wants the customer to enjoy themselves? Not at the expense of other passengers, or those on duty, of course, but are we going to have a BA limit for passengers?
If not, how do we judge if they are 'drunk' -- whatever 'drunk' means in the context of someone off-duty? Clearly those who serve alcohol have a responsibility to ensure that they don't serve it to those already over-inebriated -- that's been the law in the UK for over a hundred years.
So coming back to the case in this thread, and keeping in mind that the ONLY information we have is the Mail and Telegraph reports (i.e. this is an academic discussion as we have not heard first hand the story from the FA or the passenger) how did anyone know even roughly how much whisky she'd been drinking? If the FAs had served it, then they deserved no better than a gentle grope (provided there was no physical pain or harm).
While I don't believe that people should generally invade the personal space of others - that's a respect issue -- I do think that a FA ought to be able to shrug off a grope from a young lady. No, I don't think the grope is 'acceptable', it isn't, but it isn't such a big deal that the law should be involved or needed to be involved -- based on the report, of course. Neither of us know what really happened as we were not there.
There might be someone from the Virgin lounge who has some inside knowledge....would be interesting to discuss it here but that would make it a specific evidential debate rather than this debate which is academic.
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Lemain, having entered the reasonable, sensible and productive phase in the discussion, perhaps we can agree to differ on the need to involve the law and put that particular issue to bed?
What say you?
Your question 'how do they know how much whisky she had drunk', is easy to answer. From my own experience: after the fracas, you go through the pax's belongings and find the bottle that invariably turns up. Look at the content level and you have your answer.
Agreed on alcohol & drugs screening for people at work, agree on it not being needed for pax. But only as long as FAs receive proper training in how to deal with the issues regarding intoxicated-high-drunk-problem pax, and as long as there is at least one in-charge FA on board with sufficient life / work experience and enough guts to make reasonable decisions.
Both of these things cost money; some companies are willing to spend the money, some are not.
Some companies will back up their FAs, some will not.
If we do not use an absolute parameter like BA, what do FAs use?
Canīt speak for everyone, but this is what I do.
Stand at the door with an FA while the pax board. Keep eye out for too much hand luggage, too little hand luggage, type of dress, general appearance, is there a smell of booze, how are the eyes, does the pax move in a normal manner or do they wobble and stumble, do they react in a normal manner when asked for their boarding card, or are they zoned out or aggressive?
On top of which, as per Einsteinīs "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift" I keep my intuition tuned.
Itīs not an exact science. I only see each pax for a few seconds so itīs also a fast process and by no means fail safe.
If I get the feeling there is something 'off' about a passenger, I ask them to come with me back into the boarding hallway and we have a chat. Observing how they walk in the mean time.
After a good many years in this line of work, it doesnīt take more than a quick friendly chat to make a fairly reasonable assumption about a personīs ability to fly without becoming a problem.
Slurred his words and stumbled because he is a diabetic and needs food? No worries.
Smells like a brewery, is clearly drunk but is a Texas oil worker on his way home from the ME and able to promise me heīll have a beer and an 8 hour nap on our way to IAH; again no worries.
Nigerian Pastor with a rumpled dog collar, not quite coherent, slightly belligerent, and unwilling to agree with me that he will not in fact consume any more alcohol on the flight while appraising me in a way that makes my skull tingle; left behind because he "just felt bad".
Every single passenger aggression incident I have witnessed or been involved in, concerned a pax about whom one or more FAs had experienced and usually expressed a bad feeling about, without the in-charge FA taking suitable action. The most extreme one of which, as described, ended with me spending a number of weeks at home with a broken jaw and the passenger in question eventually going to jail.
That particular incident, with a totally ineffective and cowardly CSD in charge in the cabin, and a captain who didnīt want to bring charges until he was ordered to do so by his chief pilot, was completely avoidable.
The fact that it was not avoided by those who could and should have, spurred me on to eventually become a CSD myself.
It is one of my so far successful aims that no FA under my care will ever be subjected to the kind of pax behaviour I was.
We have a liberal alcohol policy, appreciated and enjoyed by most pax. But if a passenger, despite first the FA's and then my best efforts, insists on behaving like an @sshole and in any way at all interferes with an FA or a fellow passenger, I bring down the full force of whatever I can bring down on that personīs head.
In some countries that is nothing at all, in some countries that means the pax being trussed up by the local plod and forcibly dragged down metal stairs with his head hitting every single step, in some countries that means quiet removal and subsequent detention.
I bend over backwards to resolve things amicably, to the point of sitting at my door, behind a curtain, scared witless from Europe to the USA trying to prevent a delusional, completely paranoid USA Marine returning from the war from going berserk, and NOT calling the law on him because while he had both threatened and scared the hell out of both the crew and the other pax, the guy was not of malicious intent. And needed treatment, not a jail cell.
But if somebody really insists on wanting trouble, I will eventually oblige.
I consider it part of my job.
Some donīt, and I reckon we can all live with that.
What say you?
Your question 'how do they know how much whisky she had drunk', is easy to answer. From my own experience: after the fracas, you go through the pax's belongings and find the bottle that invariably turns up. Look at the content level and you have your answer.
Agreed on alcohol & drugs screening for people at work, agree on it not being needed for pax. But only as long as FAs receive proper training in how to deal with the issues regarding intoxicated-high-drunk-problem pax, and as long as there is at least one in-charge FA on board with sufficient life / work experience and enough guts to make reasonable decisions.
Both of these things cost money; some companies are willing to spend the money, some are not.
Some companies will back up their FAs, some will not.
If we do not use an absolute parameter like BA, what do FAs use?
Canīt speak for everyone, but this is what I do.
Stand at the door with an FA while the pax board. Keep eye out for too much hand luggage, too little hand luggage, type of dress, general appearance, is there a smell of booze, how are the eyes, does the pax move in a normal manner or do they wobble and stumble, do they react in a normal manner when asked for their boarding card, or are they zoned out or aggressive?
On top of which, as per Einsteinīs "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift" I keep my intuition tuned.
Itīs not an exact science. I only see each pax for a few seconds so itīs also a fast process and by no means fail safe.
If I get the feeling there is something 'off' about a passenger, I ask them to come with me back into the boarding hallway and we have a chat. Observing how they walk in the mean time.
After a good many years in this line of work, it doesnīt take more than a quick friendly chat to make a fairly reasonable assumption about a personīs ability to fly without becoming a problem.
Slurred his words and stumbled because he is a diabetic and needs food? No worries.
Smells like a brewery, is clearly drunk but is a Texas oil worker on his way home from the ME and able to promise me heīll have a beer and an 8 hour nap on our way to IAH; again no worries.
Nigerian Pastor with a rumpled dog collar, not quite coherent, slightly belligerent, and unwilling to agree with me that he will not in fact consume any more alcohol on the flight while appraising me in a way that makes my skull tingle; left behind because he "just felt bad".
Every single passenger aggression incident I have witnessed or been involved in, concerned a pax about whom one or more FAs had experienced and usually expressed a bad feeling about, without the in-charge FA taking suitable action. The most extreme one of which, as described, ended with me spending a number of weeks at home with a broken jaw and the passenger in question eventually going to jail.
That particular incident, with a totally ineffective and cowardly CSD in charge in the cabin, and a captain who didnīt want to bring charges until he was ordered to do so by his chief pilot, was completely avoidable.
The fact that it was not avoided by those who could and should have, spurred me on to eventually become a CSD myself.
It is one of my so far successful aims that no FA under my care will ever be subjected to the kind of pax behaviour I was.
We have a liberal alcohol policy, appreciated and enjoyed by most pax. But if a passenger, despite first the FA's and then my best efforts, insists on behaving like an @sshole and in any way at all interferes with an FA or a fellow passenger, I bring down the full force of whatever I can bring down on that personīs head.
In some countries that is nothing at all, in some countries that means the pax being trussed up by the local plod and forcibly dragged down metal stairs with his head hitting every single step, in some countries that means quiet removal and subsequent detention.
I bend over backwards to resolve things amicably, to the point of sitting at my door, behind a curtain, scared witless from Europe to the USA trying to prevent a delusional, completely paranoid USA Marine returning from the war from going berserk, and NOT calling the law on him because while he had both threatened and scared the hell out of both the crew and the other pax, the guy was not of malicious intent. And needed treatment, not a jail cell.
But if somebody really insists on wanting trouble, I will eventually oblige.
I consider it part of my job.
Some donīt, and I reckon we can all live with that.
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in some countries that means the pax being trussed up by the local plod and forcibly dragged down metal stairs with his head hitting every single step
He was disembarked in Nairobi and I believe that he didn't have a very nice time there during his stay as a guest of the Kenyan Police.
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Lemain, having entered the reasonable, sensible and productive phase in the discussion, perhaps we can agree to differ on the need to involve the law and put that particular issue to bed?
What say you?
What say you?
Your question 'how do they know how much whisky she had drunk', is easy to answer. From my own experience: after the fracas, you go through the pax's belongings and find the bottle that invariably turns up. Look at the content level and you have your answer.
....enough guts to make reasonable decisions.
Nigerian Pastor with a rumpled dog collar, not quite coherent, slightly belligerent, and unwilling to agree with me that he will not in fact consume any more alcohol on the flight while appraising me in a way that makes my skull tingle; left behind because he "just felt bad".
You seem to have many prejudices. Very sad. You might reconsider whether public service is your 'thing'?
The most extreme one of which, as described, ended with me spending a number of weeks at home with a broken jaw and the passenger in question eventually going to jail.
That particular incident, with a totally ineffective and cowardly CSD in charge in the cabin, and a captain who didnīt want to bring charges until he was ordered to do so by his chief pilot, was completely avoidable.
We have a liberal alcohol policy, appreciated and enjoyed by most pax.
I bring down the full force of whatever I can bring down on that personīs head.
I bend over backwards to resolve things amicably,
But if somebody really insists on wanting trouble, I will eventually oblige.
I consider it part of my job.Some donīt, and I reckon we can all live with that.
I consider it part of my job.Some donīt, and I reckon we can all live with that.
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Lemain - some of your earlier posts refer to opening up the discussion: Possibly you may view your contributions to this thread as some sort of public service, stimulating much needed discussion perhaps or resolving some vital controversy?
That would be a mistake, as would widening the discussion to include personal attacks on an FA with rather a lot of experience who speaks with some real (i.e. not hypothetical) authority. My patience with you is wearing very thin.
This thread is about a woman who allegedly drank a large amount of alcohol and allegedly grabbed the crotch of a Flight Attendant. This activity is considered inappropriate and there is a legal case to answer. The law will decide on the guilt or otherwise of the defendant and pass an appropriate sentence. It is no more complicated than that.
Should such behaviour be illegal? Somebody else will decide, but for the time being, it certainly appears to be possibly so - that is why the case is in court.
Is crotch-grabbing unacceptable? It may not be to you - it really doesn't matter. What matters is not the intent of the action, but how the individual on the receiving end perceives it. This is also the difference between consensual sex and the opposite and is why we have laws on sexual harassment. You may disagree - we shall see where the Court stands on the issue - the only opinion that matters
Was She drunk and what does drunk mean? This is essentially arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, and wasting bandwidth in the process.
Should FA's accept this kind of behaviour as part of the rough and tumble of day-to-day life? You may think so, most FA's don't: Probably, the law doesn't either. I'd strongly recommend that you buy an airline ticket and try to mimic the precise behaviour alleged in the newspaper article. This will enable you to have your day in Court and explain all of your dog-with-a-bone, knot-tying, must-have-the-last-word, semantic skills to the Magistrate/Judge who will, I'm certain, be fascinated. Do be sure and let us know how you get on.
That's it - No posts about your own Martyrdom or bewailing the lack Freedom of Speech - You've been given plenty of latitude and you have abused it comprehensively - enough already
That would be a mistake, as would widening the discussion to include personal attacks on an FA with rather a lot of experience who speaks with some real (i.e. not hypothetical) authority. My patience with you is wearing very thin.
This thread is about a woman who allegedly drank a large amount of alcohol and allegedly grabbed the crotch of a Flight Attendant. This activity is considered inappropriate and there is a legal case to answer. The law will decide on the guilt or otherwise of the defendant and pass an appropriate sentence. It is no more complicated than that.
Should such behaviour be illegal? Somebody else will decide, but for the time being, it certainly appears to be possibly so - that is why the case is in court.
Is crotch-grabbing unacceptable? It may not be to you - it really doesn't matter. What matters is not the intent of the action, but how the individual on the receiving end perceives it. This is also the difference between consensual sex and the opposite and is why we have laws on sexual harassment. You may disagree - we shall see where the Court stands on the issue - the only opinion that matters
Was She drunk and what does drunk mean? This is essentially arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, and wasting bandwidth in the process.
Should FA's accept this kind of behaviour as part of the rough and tumble of day-to-day life? You may think so, most FA's don't: Probably, the law doesn't either. I'd strongly recommend that you buy an airline ticket and try to mimic the precise behaviour alleged in the newspaper article. This will enable you to have your day in Court and explain all of your dog-with-a-bone, knot-tying, must-have-the-last-word, semantic skills to the Magistrate/Judge who will, I'm certain, be fascinated. Do be sure and let us know how you get on.
That's it - No posts about your own Martyrdom or bewailing the lack Freedom of Speech - You've been given plenty of latitude and you have abused it comprehensively - enough already
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Anyone with a single ounce of common sense would agree with Lemain's arguments, and many rational thinking men would not consider this to be anywhere near as serious as an indecent assault on a women. Its a strange world we live in though!
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and many rational thinking men would not consider this to be anywhere near as serious as an indecent assault on a women
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a single ounce of common sense
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Ottergirl, it happened to a police officer friend and he certainly didn't react in the OTT manner you describe, he simply laughed it off and told the silly woman to go home. Public servants need to develop the skills to cope with such trivia - as he did. The courts have far more serious issues to deal with than someones hurt feelings! 
I can't believe this debate is still on going and I cannot believe some of the views. The law see's no distinction between the offence carried out on a male or a female. I think many of the, obviously blokes, on here are letting their sexual fantasies cloud their judgement. Nothing wrong with that as such but as I mentioned before, if it was a guy feeling your cock you would take strong issue with it and many of you would certainly not 'laugh it off'. Absoultely not, and whilst many of you wouldn't go down the police route you would certainly have a few harsh words if not anything more physical.
Theres a good chance the guy was gay, lets face it, so you can see why he would be upset. Being gay and having a woman feel you up i'm sure is not any nicer than being straight and having a gay guy feeling your crown jewels. By the same token, being a woman and having unsolicited groping can also be upsetting. There is no difference.
Theres a good chance the guy was gay, lets face it, so you can see why he would be upset. Being gay and having a woman feel you up i'm sure is not any nicer than being straight and having a gay guy feeling your crown jewels. By the same token, being a woman and having unsolicited groping can also be upsetting. There is no difference.
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we do not feel that we should be subjected to any level of crotch grabbing as part of our daily duties.
Unforunately in dealing with the general public there will always be issues; i'm sure many have shared jokes about the stupidity of some members of the general public on aircraft/in airports in some instances.
to bring some levity, no one is, nor has suggested that being groped is, or should, be part of daily duty.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As SLF, I think anyone that is drunk or gets drunk on an aircraft is an idiot. I dress to evacuate and survive. I know I cannot do that when drunk.
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Has it been established whether or not the crew served her a "pint of whisky"?
Because if they did, IMHO they are at least partially responsible.
There's been many a flight where I've watched the crew happily doling out the firewater to people on a mission to get blitzed, when perhaps a quiet "I think you've had enough" would have been a better choice, and led to an infinitely preferable outcome, whether it's led to an altercation or a particularly unattractive bout of vomiting.
Because if they did, IMHO they are at least partially responsible.
There's been many a flight where I've watched the crew happily doling out the firewater to people on a mission to get blitzed, when perhaps a quiet "I think you've had enough" would have been a better choice, and led to an infinitely preferable outcome, whether it's led to an altercation or a particularly unattractive bout of vomiting.
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One person groping another is illegal.
Whether pressing charges is appropriate is a matter of opinion, and the only opinion that matters is that of the person who was groped.
If they choose to press charges then the law would support them, as would I.
The gender/sexual-preferance of either party is irrelevant, to argue otherwise is blatant discrimination.
Whether pressing charges is appropriate is a matter of opinion, and the only opinion that matters is that of the person who was groped.
If they choose to press charges then the law would support them, as would I.
The gender/sexual-preferance of either party is irrelevant, to argue otherwise is blatant discrimination.
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Whether pressing charges is appropriate is a matter of opinion, and the only opinion that matters is that of the person who was groped.
I like the signs that some shops have : THIEVES WILL BE PROSECUTED
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I don't agree with that. If someone commits a crime it should be dealt with as such, and not based on whether the 'gropee' decides to prosecute.
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Lets face it, if the sexes were reversed there would be jail time involved and an entry onto the sex offenders register which would also prevent employment as a teacher (Goldbergs profession).
Here's frightening drunken passenger for you:
Whilst flying for a Big Airline, one, with permission from Fleet Manager, did some air taxi flying at Glasgow.
One night I took an Aztec with, IIRC, five oilies from Bergen to Glasgow.
Unknown to me, they sneaked a litre of Vodka on board and necked it en route.
On the approach, in light to moderate turbulence, the guy behind me started screaming about the pilot's abilities and generally making a nuisance of himself. I was seriously worried that this prat might grab me on short finals; by the neck, not the nuts
Fortunately, the guy next to me (sitting at a full set of dual controls) had not been drinking and he and the others calmed yer man down and we landed safely.
I'd already asked for a police presence for disembarkation but only as a precaution.
When I parked the little airyplane for the night I found the 2nd and 3rd rows awash with urine.
Learnt about flying from that.
Juud, If we ever meet at a 'Bash', you must relate the tale of your injury.
Whilst flying for a Big Airline, one, with permission from Fleet Manager, did some air taxi flying at Glasgow.
One night I took an Aztec with, IIRC, five oilies from Bergen to Glasgow.
Unknown to me, they sneaked a litre of Vodka on board and necked it en route.
On the approach, in light to moderate turbulence, the guy behind me started screaming about the pilot's abilities and generally making a nuisance of himself. I was seriously worried that this prat might grab me on short finals; by the neck, not the nuts
Fortunately, the guy next to me (sitting at a full set of dual controls) had not been drinking and he and the others calmed yer man down and we landed safely.
I'd already asked for a police presence for disembarkation but only as a precaution.
When I parked the little airyplane for the night I found the 2nd and 3rd rows awash with urine.
Learnt about flying from that.
Juud, If we ever meet at a 'Bash', you must relate the tale of your injury.
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Basel, those were the days
We kept old pt oil cans, the ones with screw caps....in the back...plus extra strong sick bags.
Can not beat the oilies for an interesting trip Bergan / Aberdeen, middle of night 1000 ft, due icing, in a Titan....
Then sitting on the tail of the aircraft so a nose wheel could be changed, ready for next mornings rotation...
Glf
Can not beat the oilies for an interesting trip Bergan / Aberdeen, middle of night 1000 ft, due icing, in a Titan....
Then sitting on the tail of the aircraft so a nose wheel could be changed, ready for next mornings rotation...
Glf