British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Nobody from either side of the debate on here has said that they want to work less and they are contracted to 900/2000 I would imagine. Can you get that amount of work in, with your current agreements?
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flapsforty
I am not doubting your moderating of this forum at all. I have seen in the past when you, and your other moderator colleague, have dealt with posts which have not concerned the topic and discussions which have become either too personal or nasty.
Many have expressed their appreciation for my presence, which I am grateful for. It makes my writing more interesting. I will continue to post for as long as I can contribute something to the discussion.
the flying nunn
I have been striking over imposition.
Do not worry about the MTP. It should be introduced soon as confirmed at BFC. BA and BASSA only need to negotiate a good deal concerning it.
MrBunker
Crew crossed the picket line for several reasons but no doubt they are supporting our management. The rest of us are trying to save our careers by trying to get the best possible deal with BA.
The strikebreaking crew are happy to enjoy terms and conditions, which the rest of us have fought and are figthing for, without actually fighting for them themselves. It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
Don't worry. I, or anyone else, am not expecting any rewards for taking industrial action.
I am not doubting your moderating of this forum at all. I have seen in the past when you, and your other moderator colleague, have dealt with posts which have not concerned the topic and discussions which have become either too personal or nasty.
Many have expressed their appreciation for my presence, which I am grateful for. It makes my writing more interesting. I will continue to post for as long as I can contribute something to the discussion.
the flying nunn
I have been striking over imposition.
Do not worry about the MTP. It should be introduced soon as confirmed at BFC. BA and BASSA only need to negotiate a good deal concerning it.
MrBunker
Crew crossed the picket line for several reasons but no doubt they are supporting our management. The rest of us are trying to save our careers by trying to get the best possible deal with BA.
The strikebreaking crew are happy to enjoy terms and conditions, which the rest of us have fought and are figthing for, without actually fighting for them themselves. It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
Don't worry. I, or anyone else, am not expecting any rewards for taking industrial action.
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The strikebreaking crew are happy to enjoy terms and conditions, which the rest of us have fought and are figthing for, without actually fighting for them themselves. It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
This time management didn't back down and BASSA haven't got a clue what to do except strike over nebulous changes to non contractual agreements.
As to the Daily Hate Mail, at least BA doesn't get its quotes from such rags as 'Morning Star' like BASSA do.
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900 hours is more common on WW. The efficiency saving there have to come from less crew on board and fewer supervisory grades.
Do you not see the irony that with every passing period of IA the deal BA offer you is getting worse, and will never be as good as the one are you were offered prior to IA? The people who are genuinely trying to get the best possible deal from BA are those who are defying the union and working. The strikers are merely trying to save as much face as possible now.
Originally Posted by MissM
Crew crossed the picket line for several reasons but no doubt they are supporting our management. The rest of us are trying to save our careers by trying to get the best possible deal with BA.
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MrBunker
Crew crossed the picket line for several reasons but no doubt they are supporting our management. The rest of us are trying to save our careers by trying to get the best possible deal with BA.
The strikebreaking crew are happy to enjoy terms and conditions, which the rest of us have fought and are figthing for, without actually fighting for them themselves. It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
Don't worry. I, or anyone else, am not expecting any rewards for taking industrial action.
Crew crossed the picket line for several reasons but no doubt they are supporting our management. The rest of us are trying to save our careers by trying to get the best possible deal with BA.
The strikebreaking crew are happy to enjoy terms and conditions, which the rest of us have fought and are figthing for, without actually fighting for them themselves. It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
Don't worry. I, or anyone else, am not expecting any rewards for taking industrial action.
Rant off, but by association you denigrated my wife.
MrB
This is not a good v evil fight, it's a question of approaches and philosophies at most.
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Originally Posted by MissM
I have been striking over imposition.
He imposed. NOTHING will change that. There will always be the threat of him doing so again in the future. As I see it, if you're striking over imposition, there is absolutely, positively no solution to this dispute for you; for the imposition will always have happened and the cloud of further impositions will always hang above our heads.
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It's a cowardly and unforgivable behaviour. I cannot stress this out too many times.
Odd how 1500 people max seem to think they know/knew far better and have a clearer picture than the 40,000 or so that could really see what was happening in the world.
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Excellent post, Mr. Bunker. Still cannot believe you got Mrs. Bunker - or any woman - to marry ya! 
I share your wife's disappointment at the comments made by MissM who, despite this, I still maintain an enormous amount of respect for - she, unlike many of her colleagues who went on strike, seems more than capable of having a civilised, reasoned, mature discussion about these issues.
I, like Mrs. Bunker, would be happy to sign up to the deal of June 2009. I'd also be happy to sign up to all of the subsequent deals since then.
I am prepared to BEG the likes of MissM to stop doing my fighting for me, if that's what she believes she's doing.
The only way is down, when it comes to the likely deals we're going to be offered. Take a look at the deals that we've been offered since June 2009 and it's hard to miss the fact that sweeteners and generally positive elements of those deals have been rubbed out as strikes and threats thereof took hold. We're never going to get back to 2009's offer.
The biggest problem we face now is that not only do Unite/Bassa absolutely have to get us a deal as good as that offered in June 2009, they also absolutely have to get back staff travel for those who have lost it.
The latter is going to be a struggle. The former? I've more chance of getting my end away with Sandra Bullock.
Bassa and Unite, sadly, cannot win this one. They might settle, but it will be for something WORSE than they've previously been offered. That would make the strikes retrospectively pointless; the £1m+ bill to Unite absolutely wasteful and the heartache and strife for those strikers who have lost loads of money an absolute kick to the baby maker.
I'm ready to back Bassa next time around if I feel a strike is justified - I'd rejoin the union to go on strike if I did - but on this one I can only hope that the Bassa white towel is thrown in and thrown in soon.
Out of interest, MissM, if Walsh offered us June 2009's deal AND the full reinstatement of Staff Travel, would you accept?
What EXACTLY will it take for you to tell your reps "take it"?
I share your wife's disappointment at the comments made by MissM who, despite this, I still maintain an enormous amount of respect for - she, unlike many of her colleagues who went on strike, seems more than capable of having a civilised, reasoned, mature discussion about these issues.
I, like Mrs. Bunker, would be happy to sign up to the deal of June 2009. I'd also be happy to sign up to all of the subsequent deals since then.
I am prepared to BEG the likes of MissM to stop doing my fighting for me, if that's what she believes she's doing.
The only way is down, when it comes to the likely deals we're going to be offered. Take a look at the deals that we've been offered since June 2009 and it's hard to miss the fact that sweeteners and generally positive elements of those deals have been rubbed out as strikes and threats thereof took hold. We're never going to get back to 2009's offer.
The biggest problem we face now is that not only do Unite/Bassa absolutely have to get us a deal as good as that offered in June 2009, they also absolutely have to get back staff travel for those who have lost it.
The latter is going to be a struggle. The former? I've more chance of getting my end away with Sandra Bullock.
Bassa and Unite, sadly, cannot win this one. They might settle, but it will be for something WORSE than they've previously been offered. That would make the strikes retrospectively pointless; the £1m+ bill to Unite absolutely wasteful and the heartache and strife for those strikers who have lost loads of money an absolute kick to the baby maker.
I'm ready to back Bassa next time around if I feel a strike is justified - I'd rejoin the union to go on strike if I did - but on this one I can only hope that the Bassa white towel is thrown in and thrown in soon.
Out of interest, MissM, if Walsh offered us June 2009's deal AND the full reinstatement of Staff Travel, would you accept?
What EXACTLY will it take for you to tell your reps "take it"?
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So with your two replies, the WW current crew savings are complete, although this is a simplistic statement. With EF, if the agreements were changed to allow increased flying, there would be another redundancy/part time working issue? This is regardless of the cost of existing crew contracts and new fleet/contract?
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Right Engine.
I don't know the reasons why BA crew night stop in LCA, perhaps it is to do with flight departure times into LHR, I honestly do not know.
But I do know that as BY cabin crew I operated there and back. My question is, do the BA pilots operate a there and back LCA, and just exchange cabin crew downroute?
I honestly believe this has nothing to do with 18hrs rest or long day payments. An 18hr turnaround has to be more effective and cheaper than a night down route, allowances, additional crew requirements.
As I say, there will be a more appropriate reason, beneficial to BA rather than the one you suggest.
(Edit. Just saw Ottergirl's post a page back.)
I don't know the reasons why BA crew night stop in LCA, perhaps it is to do with flight departure times into LHR, I honestly do not know.
But I do know that as BY cabin crew I operated there and back. My question is, do the BA pilots operate a there and back LCA, and just exchange cabin crew downroute?
I honestly believe this has nothing to do with 18hrs rest or long day payments. An 18hr turnaround has to be more effective and cheaper than a night down route, allowances, additional crew requirements.
As I say, there will be a more appropriate reason, beneficial to BA rather than the one you suggest.
(Edit. Just saw Ottergirl's post a page back.)
Last edited by PC767; 18th Jun 2010 at 16:18.
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ATB
MrB
Apologies for somewhat irrelevant levity.
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A point for consideration. I had a downroute chat with a slightly inebriated pilot on my last trip. Although trying to avoid the obvious chat, of course the topic arrived at the current malaise. His gripe, he'd lost over £10k per annum. I will never argue that is a good thing. I 100% support any notion that over £10k is alot to lose.
But in a cloud of emotion, passion and alcohol he further disclosed his total salary was over £100k per annum. Again let me be straight, I do not resent that figure, the chap has worked hard and jumped through countless hoops to get there. And it is no doubt deserved.
However, percentages and figures aside, over £10k from over £100k still equals over £90k and will have less of an impact on his standard of living than the BA proposals have on the earning potential of the vast majority of BA cabin crew. (ie not the tiny minority of over 30 year service CSDs often quoted as examples - I admit they exist, but they are a dying breed and I stress a minority not representative of the rest of us. And to clarify, its not their faults, it was what they were offered.)
I've never been a socialist, but slowly I drift towards their argument on wealth distribution. Similar to the extreme of Walsh giving up a whooping £67k from his equally whooping £700+k per annum, and expect his cleaner to make a similar gesture.
But in a cloud of emotion, passion and alcohol he further disclosed his total salary was over £100k per annum. Again let me be straight, I do not resent that figure, the chap has worked hard and jumped through countless hoops to get there. And it is no doubt deserved.
However, percentages and figures aside, over £10k from over £100k still equals over £90k and will have less of an impact on his standard of living than the BA proposals have on the earning potential of the vast majority of BA cabin crew. (ie not the tiny minority of over 30 year service CSDs often quoted as examples - I admit they exist, but they are a dying breed and I stress a minority not representative of the rest of us. And to clarify, its not their faults, it was what they were offered.)
I've never been a socialist, but slowly I drift towards their argument on wealth distribution. Similar to the extreme of Walsh giving up a whooping £67k from his equally whooping £700+k per annum, and expect his cleaner to make a similar gesture.
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Everyone budgets to live within their means (or should).
A pilot may have budgetted on 100k a year so for him to suddenly find himself earning 90k, despite the latter still being an enormous figure, would be a real blow to the system - perhaps as big a blow as me finding my 30k a year drop by the same percentage of earnings to 27k.
It's impossible to judge who will be hit hardest by any pay cut. Impossible.
Sure - it could be argued that for a pilot to spend c. £6k a month would take a lot of effort, that's not to say some of them aren't doing just that.
What Mr. Walsh earns doesn't bother me. Nor does what Mr. Bunker earns (but he has told me before, pre-marriage, and I will be expecting him to buy the beers when we next fly).
I only care about what I earn. I only spend what I have available to spend and I only look out for protecting my own terms, conditions and earnings.
But I can recognise that protecting these things doesn't have to be as straightforward as towing the Bassa line. Sometimes you have to look at things closely yourself and determine whether, believe it or not, the company isn't actually out to screw the pooch.
The pilots should keep their noses out of what cabin crew earn (just as cabin crew should keep out of what the pilots get in their bank every month) but, unfortunately, Bassa has made this all very public by calling for unjustified, unwinnable strikes to take place which are creating a VERY REAL threat to the future stability of the very company responsible for paying every single one of us. That's why the pilots are so keenly involved in this whole situation - and I really can't blame them this time.
A pilot may have budgetted on 100k a year so for him to suddenly find himself earning 90k, despite the latter still being an enormous figure, would be a real blow to the system - perhaps as big a blow as me finding my 30k a year drop by the same percentage of earnings to 27k.
It's impossible to judge who will be hit hardest by any pay cut. Impossible.
Sure - it could be argued that for a pilot to spend c. £6k a month would take a lot of effort, that's not to say some of them aren't doing just that.
What Mr. Walsh earns doesn't bother me. Nor does what Mr. Bunker earns (but he has told me before, pre-marriage, and I will be expecting him to buy the beers when we next fly).
I only care about what I earn. I only spend what I have available to spend and I only look out for protecting my own terms, conditions and earnings.
But I can recognise that protecting these things doesn't have to be as straightforward as towing the Bassa line. Sometimes you have to look at things closely yourself and determine whether, believe it or not, the company isn't actually out to screw the pooch.
The pilots should keep their noses out of what cabin crew earn (just as cabin crew should keep out of what the pilots get in their bank every month) but, unfortunately, Bassa has made this all very public by calling for unjustified, unwinnable strikes to take place which are creating a VERY REAL threat to the future stability of the very company responsible for paying every single one of us. That's why the pilots are so keenly involved in this whole situation - and I really can't blame them this time.
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MisM
Do not worry about the MTP. It should be introduced soon as confirmed at BFC. BA and BASSA only need to negotiate a good deal concerning it.
If it did, this dispute would never have come about.
Last edited by Chuchinchow; 18th Jun 2010 at 16:38.
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If I want to earn what WW earns, I'll apply for his job. I know it comes with 25 hour days and more problems than I have hairs to pull out so I won't be applying for it.
And that's fair.
What is unfair are examples where 'Execs' vote themselves 7% increases but 'reward' their staff with 3%. This is a general comment, not one aimed at BA.
BASSA are experts at obfuscating the issue and bending light. The reasons for this dispute are lost in the mists of time. Unfortunately the solution to this situation seems equally intangible. People who were dismissed by fair and due process cannot and should not be reinstated. At some point BASSA you're going to have to realise this if you're ever going to move on.
And that's fair.
What is unfair are examples where 'Execs' vote themselves 7% increases but 'reward' their staff with 3%. This is a general comment, not one aimed at BA.
BASSA are experts at obfuscating the issue and bending light. The reasons for this dispute are lost in the mists of time. Unfortunately the solution to this situation seems equally intangible. People who were dismissed by fair and due process cannot and should not be reinstated. At some point BASSA you're going to have to realise this if you're ever going to move on.
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Yawn.
Chuchinchow. There are stuck records in the BASSA camp, but there are also stuck records on the other side. You appear to have succumb to the notion that the self styled un-reasonable man was the only one to negotiate. (Something of a reasonable thing to do.)
I don't know, I wasn't present, were you? But I'd say that when it suited both sides had periods of non-negotiation
Chuchinchow. There are stuck records in the BASSA camp, but there are also stuck records on the other side. You appear to have succumb to the notion that the self styled un-reasonable man was the only one to negotiate. (Something of a reasonable thing to do.)
I don't know, I wasn't present, were you? But I'd say that when it suited both sides had periods of non-negotiation