Transgendered cabin crew?
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TG crew ? Yes, Please !
Hi – I’m new here. Be gentle.
I have been lurking and reading PPRuNe for a while, off and on.
I’m not a pilot, or CC, or any of the other many airline industry roles that keep me, and the plane I happen to sitting in, flying.
I’m just a regular SLF parcel – regular as in ordinary and regular as in frequent. So I read PPRuNe now and then, just keeping in touch, like. And it can be interesting to see what is going on in the heads of people on the other side of my airline ticket.
I thought I had to register and throw in my two’pennorth on this one.
There are other threads on here right now, relating to the BA dispute, Spanish ATCO, and other matters with lots of healthy debate - and sometimes a little mud-slinging maybe.
I have read those with interest, but not felt sufficiently stirred to add comment on those – in each thread, my own views have already been put by some posters (on both sides of any particular thread) and anyway as mostly the arguments are going round in circles now (‘scuse pun !) I haven’t felt the need to post. And, as SLF, I don’t have any particular technical or company insight on which to argue the minutiae.
But on this one ?
I have flown many miles, on many airlines (including Thai Air, by the way), and it has never occurred to me to wonder or be bothered about the sexuality, or previous gender, of the CC that I have met – or pilots that I haven’t. OK, sometimes I might have (rightly or wrongly !) unconsciously made an assumption about a male CC who appeared a bit camp – and I guess I might do the same about a CC in a skirt who seemed a bit – how shall we say – "masculine ?" And I guess there have been many more occasions when somebody has seemed so completely natural in their own skin or uniform – be that male or female – that nothing at all has registered, consciously or unconsciously.
But – do you know what ? If there are any transgender, either before or after, CC (or Pilots, or whatever) up there flying, then not only would I be comfortable in my ignorance of their sexuality or previous gender on their airplane – if did know about it I would be happy to be on their airplane !
[OK – I know we can be pedantic about what actually constitutes sex, sexuality and gender, but you know what I mean, so please let’s not argue on that one].
It seems to me, that given the amount of hassle and cr*p that these people would have had to go through all their lives – and I guess will still get from some "colleagues" after any change – well… then those people must be real tough cookies. And thus likely to be able to cope with more or less anything and look after me no matter what happens up there. And, furthermore, they are up there in the air because they love their job, and wanted to continue in the job, just so much that they were prepared to go through all that hassle and any bitchiness and sniping just in order to carry on flying and look after people like me.
That’s good enough for me – I’ll take that anyday.
Happy to fly with you Ma’am, [or Sir].
So, thinking about it now – as this thread had forced me to do – if my next flight attendant wears a skirt, is 6’4", 200lbs, with a seven o’clock shadow, and a dark brown voice to go with a namebadge saying "Lola" – I will recline my seat, sip my drink and be happy.
I know that I’m being looked after by someone who really wants to be there, doing that job, and has probably fought like hell to get there and stay there.
Phil
I have been lurking and reading PPRuNe for a while, off and on.
I’m not a pilot, or CC, or any of the other many airline industry roles that keep me, and the plane I happen to sitting in, flying.
I’m just a regular SLF parcel – regular as in ordinary and regular as in frequent. So I read PPRuNe now and then, just keeping in touch, like. And it can be interesting to see what is going on in the heads of people on the other side of my airline ticket.
I thought I had to register and throw in my two’pennorth on this one.
There are other threads on here right now, relating to the BA dispute, Spanish ATCO, and other matters with lots of healthy debate - and sometimes a little mud-slinging maybe.
I have read those with interest, but not felt sufficiently stirred to add comment on those – in each thread, my own views have already been put by some posters (on both sides of any particular thread) and anyway as mostly the arguments are going round in circles now (‘scuse pun !) I haven’t felt the need to post. And, as SLF, I don’t have any particular technical or company insight on which to argue the minutiae.
But on this one ?
I have flown many miles, on many airlines (including Thai Air, by the way), and it has never occurred to me to wonder or be bothered about the sexuality, or previous gender, of the CC that I have met – or pilots that I haven’t. OK, sometimes I might have (rightly or wrongly !) unconsciously made an assumption about a male CC who appeared a bit camp – and I guess I might do the same about a CC in a skirt who seemed a bit – how shall we say – "masculine ?" And I guess there have been many more occasions when somebody has seemed so completely natural in their own skin or uniform – be that male or female – that nothing at all has registered, consciously or unconsciously.
But – do you know what ? If there are any transgender, either before or after, CC (or Pilots, or whatever) up there flying, then not only would I be comfortable in my ignorance of their sexuality or previous gender on their airplane – if did know about it I would be happy to be on their airplane !
[OK – I know we can be pedantic about what actually constitutes sex, sexuality and gender, but you know what I mean, so please let’s not argue on that one].
It seems to me, that given the amount of hassle and cr*p that these people would have had to go through all their lives – and I guess will still get from some "colleagues" after any change – well… then those people must be real tough cookies. And thus likely to be able to cope with more or less anything and look after me no matter what happens up there. And, furthermore, they are up there in the air because they love their job, and wanted to continue in the job, just so much that they were prepared to go through all that hassle and any bitchiness and sniping just in order to carry on flying and look after people like me.
That’s good enough for me – I’ll take that anyday.
Happy to fly with you Ma’am, [or Sir].
So, thinking about it now – as this thread had forced me to do – if my next flight attendant wears a skirt, is 6’4", 200lbs, with a seven o’clock shadow, and a dark brown voice to go with a namebadge saying "Lola" – I will recline my seat, sip my drink and be happy.
I know that I’m being looked after by someone who really wants to be there, doing that job, and has probably fought like hell to get there and stay there.
Phil
"Mac's statement in the 2nd para posting 15 beginning 'Essentially.....' REALLY needs some examining."
What I said was; "Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender." Since this is the fairly undeniable essence of the problem, I am somewhat at a loss to know how this can be examined further, REALLY or otherwise.
"I questioned the ethics of surgeons carrying out transgender operations given it is mostly a psychological condition."
It isn't "given" at all. As I stated, the evidence is that this is no more a psychological condition than homosexuality and it is certainly no more amenable to psychotherapy. Would you suggest that homosexuals should receive treatment in an attempt to convert them to heterosexuality? This has certainly been exhaustively attempted with a conspicuous lack of success (though not without inflicting much suffering).
The ethics of carrying out gender reassignment procedures can indeed be debated, but arguably are no more complex than breast enlargement or the use of analgesics for pain (the ethics of which were intensely debated by some when anaesthetics were introduced).
These sort of discussions are really only useful if the protagonists are willing to entertain viewpoints other than those with which they entered the debate rather than attempt to impose theirs on others. Your viewpoint is neither exceptional or novel and the small arguments that you make I have heard and considered many times, only to reject them on evidentiary grounds. You might care to consider testimony from those intimately concerned with the management of these unfortunate people and, as any reasonable person might do, modify your views in the direction of tolerance at least.
Mac
To give Mac some back up with this, I'm a psych nurse, both civvy and military and I also sat on a board of a Primary Care Trust that (amongst other things) looked at requests for gender re-assignment. It is NOT considered a mental illness or psychological problem.
The only normal input from a psychologist at any stage during this process is early on by a specialist psychologist or psychiatrist to check that the person is not suffering from a mental illness that would make them lack capacity to make this decision. The vast majority have great insight into their problems and have capacity.
It's also unlawful to reveal that someone is transgendered without their consent unless it is medically necessary to do so.
What I said was; "Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender." Since this is the fairly undeniable essence of the problem, I am somewhat at a loss to know how this can be examined further, REALLY or otherwise.
"I questioned the ethics of surgeons carrying out transgender operations given it is mostly a psychological condition."
It isn't "given" at all. As I stated, the evidence is that this is no more a psychological condition than homosexuality and it is certainly no more amenable to psychotherapy. Would you suggest that homosexuals should receive treatment in an attempt to convert them to heterosexuality? This has certainly been exhaustively attempted with a conspicuous lack of success (though not without inflicting much suffering).
The ethics of carrying out gender reassignment procedures can indeed be debated, but arguably are no more complex than breast enlargement or the use of analgesics for pain (the ethics of which were intensely debated by some when anaesthetics were introduced).
These sort of discussions are really only useful if the protagonists are willing to entertain viewpoints other than those with which they entered the debate rather than attempt to impose theirs on others. Your viewpoint is neither exceptional or novel and the small arguments that you make I have heard and considered many times, only to reject them on evidentiary grounds. You might care to consider testimony from those intimately concerned with the management of these unfortunate people and, as any reasonable person might do, modify your views in the direction of tolerance at least.
Mac
To give Mac some back up with this, I'm a psych nurse, both civvy and military and I also sat on a board of a Primary Care Trust that (amongst other things) looked at requests for gender re-assignment. It is NOT considered a mental illness or psychological problem.
The only normal input from a psychologist at any stage during this process is early on by a specialist psychologist or psychiatrist to check that the person is not suffering from a mental illness that would make them lack capacity to make this decision. The vast majority have great insight into their problems and have capacity.
It's also unlawful to reveal that someone is transgendered without their consent unless it is medically necessary to do so.
Its actually not all that new in airline terms. There was a very famous steward in BOAC in the early 1970's who dressed as a woman whilst off duty downroute.
He decided he wished to become female and even in those less enlightened times he was given every assistance and support by BOAC (may have even become BA by then).
She then transferred to the Terminals and became one of the staff looking after children and taking them to their boarding gates. She was much liked by all and I think never suffered from any prejudice from colleagues or customers.
These days it should be no barrier to employment.
He decided he wished to become female and even in those less enlightened times he was given every assistance and support by BOAC (may have even become BA by then).
She then transferred to the Terminals and became one of the staff looking after children and taking them to their boarding gates. She was much liked by all and I think never suffered from any prejudice from colleagues or customers.
These days it should be no barrier to employment.
Last edited by vctenderness; 6th Dec 2010 at 16:22. Reason: typo
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Forgive the banality of my next comment, but having worked with BA's transgendered (post operation), breast augmented individual, I can say one thing - She is stunningly beautiful ( regardless of whether she harbours a Y chromosome or not)
I say that as a bona fide heterosexual father, Rainboe. Get up to speed old boy! Regard rather than judge! It's so much more pleasing to exist on that level....
I say that as a bona fide heterosexual father, Rainboe. Get up to speed old boy! Regard rather than judge! It's so much more pleasing to exist on that level....
I too know of an aussie pilot who decided being male wasn't his thing. She ended up being victimised by a number of other pilots - ultimately resulting in her 'demotion' (for a short while) until the 'powers that be' backed off and realised the trouble they were in.
In reality - and I think it's the same almost anywhere in the UK/USA/AUS...
Making this personal choice should NOT impede your success when applying for the job.
Unfortunately, the personal connection you make with any recruiter (who, granted, is human too) - is more often than not, distorted by the applicants race, physical appearance, sexual orientation, and GENDER.
While I admit, recruiters are human too (so i'm told anyway) - they are likely to assess you not just by what the airline dictates, but their own personal experiences and education. (It's not right - but there it is!).
By the law, you should not be treated differently - that said, it's not hard for the recruiter to lie, and say that you didn't get the job because of your 'attitude' or the 'way you answered a question'...
That's the reality - unfortunately - and until things improve (and you can force the improvement if you've got the cash and the time to challenge) - thats the way it is.
For what it's worth, a bunch of girls I work with decided they should challenge on the grounds of ageism - and they won! It's a shame they had to - but even they admit justice is not free.
In reality - and I think it's the same almost anywhere in the UK/USA/AUS...
Making this personal choice should NOT impede your success when applying for the job.
Unfortunately, the personal connection you make with any recruiter (who, granted, is human too) - is more often than not, distorted by the applicants race, physical appearance, sexual orientation, and GENDER.
While I admit, recruiters are human too (so i'm told anyway) - they are likely to assess you not just by what the airline dictates, but their own personal experiences and education. (It's not right - but there it is!).
By the law, you should not be treated differently - that said, it's not hard for the recruiter to lie, and say that you didn't get the job because of your 'attitude' or the 'way you answered a question'...
That's the reality - unfortunately - and until things improve (and you can force the improvement if you've got the cash and the time to challenge) - thats the way it is.
For what it's worth, a bunch of girls I work with decided they should challenge on the grounds of ageism - and they won! It's a shame they had to - but even they admit justice is not free.
vctenderness and Right Engine
I think we know the same person (see my post last year). I am so glad to know she is doing well.
I think we know the same person (see my post last year). I am so glad to know she is doing well.
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I'm just flabbergasted to read Rainboe's posts on here. Please remember - most of us on the flightdeck are not that bigoted.
How someone like that gets a job in a multi-crew environment is just beyond me...
How someone like that gets a job in a multi-crew environment is just beyond me...
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Couldn't agree more.
As commanders we lead a team of individuals who've proven they are qualified for the job. It is our duty to safeguard the integrity of the team and look out for every single crew member. Regardless of sex, race, colour, sexual preferences or religious views.
Rainboe is entitled to his opinion. And so are people who have problems with people who change their gender. You are free to argue your point of view on a forum. But once on duty you must put your personal views aside.
People who are unable to do that should never be put in a commanding position. For the ability to unify, motivate, encourage are traits that are vital to have in order to perform as a leader.
As commanders we lead a team of individuals who've proven they are qualified for the job. It is our duty to safeguard the integrity of the team and look out for every single crew member. Regardless of sex, race, colour, sexual preferences or religious views.
Rainboe is entitled to his opinion. And so are people who have problems with people who change their gender. You are free to argue your point of view on a forum. But once on duty you must put your personal views aside.
People who are unable to do that should never be put in a commanding position. For the ability to unify, motivate, encourage are traits that are vital to have in order to perform as a leader.
