Experienced pax vs very experienced CC seatbelt thread
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Demomonkey
Sorry if you could not live with my anger at the Mod's post.
This forum is great for exchanging views and I try to be respectful at all times, accepting that many people have different views. I have no issue with the mod voicing his opinion but i did have an issue with his demeaning tone.
Unfortunately patience seems to wear thin with some posters with regards to other people's opinions. The arrogance is sometimes simply incredible and yes, I do perceive such attitude as pedantic.
We live in an time when your GP should not address his patient as a child, an neither should an airline captain address his SLF that way or a mod a poster. This is 2009, not 1959.
As for keeping the signs on when there is a possibility of clear air turbulence (PIREP), I think that's obviously wise, as is a brief info to the SLP telling them of this risk. It is exactly because of the clear air turbulence that the standard briefing includes the suggestion of keeping the belt on at all times
Sorry if you could not live with my anger at the Mod's post.
This forum is great for exchanging views and I try to be respectful at all times, accepting that many people have different views. I have no issue with the mod voicing his opinion but i did have an issue with his demeaning tone.
Unfortunately patience seems to wear thin with some posters with regards to other people's opinions. The arrogance is sometimes simply incredible and yes, I do perceive such attitude as pedantic.
We live in an time when your GP should not address his patient as a child, an neither should an airline captain address his SLF that way or a mod a poster. This is 2009, not 1959.
As for keeping the signs on when there is a possibility of clear air turbulence (PIREP), I think that's obviously wise, as is a brief info to the SLP telling them of this risk. It is exactly because of the clear air turbulence that the standard briefing includes the suggestion of keeping the belt on at all times
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The role of a moderator on an internet forum is to moderate, ie ensure respectful discussion, I thought? Moderators don't take part in the discussion, far less inflame it.
I've seen poor moderation on other forum sites, where there's a high level of emotional reactivity and the moderator is easily provoked into joining in. I'm surprised at the emotional excitability on Pprune, given that many posters claim to be part of a profession where intellectual discipline and emotional restraint are valued. But if even the mods can't exercise self-control...
I've seen poor moderation on other forum sites, where there's a high level of emotional reactivity and the moderator is easily provoked into joining in. I'm surprised at the emotional excitability on Pprune, given that many posters claim to be part of a profession where intellectual discipline and emotional restraint are valued. But if even the mods can't exercise self-control...
and so did I 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 79
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wise words indeed van Horck
let's get back on the topic.
How to avoid heavy turbulence ? Simple; improve the instruments which can detect it.
How to achieve this ?( and I truly hate to say this) Sue and ligitate airlines and plane manufacturers until they realise that it is cheaper to develop better detecting equipment.
Lastly, a barely lit FSB light will not do the trick to keep people seated, one has to consider that there are people around who are totally unaware of what can happen( And no, they are not daft )
let's get back on the topic.How to avoid heavy turbulence ? Simple; improve the instruments which can detect it.
How to achieve this ?( and I truly hate to say this) Sue and ligitate airlines and plane manufacturers until they realise that it is cheaper to develop better detecting equipment.
Lastly, a barely lit FSB light will not do the trick to keep people seated, one has to consider that there are people around who are totally unaware of what can happen( And no, they are not daft )
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MI
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is your Captain speaking.
The Seat Belt Sign is ON as you can see. While we are expecting a smooth flight, however, turbulence up here can NOT be forcast any better than the weather at your house can. There's always a CHANCE for it, just as there's always a chance for rain or snow at your house. There's even a CHANCE for rain in the desert.
So, unless it is absolutely necessary for you to leave your seat, I would like you to remain seated with your seatbelt FASTENED.....PLEASE. Neither I nor this airline can be held responsible if you are injured because of unforecasted turbulence, if your seat belt is not fastened with you in it.
Thank you.
-----------
As to the remark made by 'bossan'....."How to avoid heavy turbulence ? Simple; improve the instruments which can detect it. How to achieve this ?( and I truly hate to say this) Sue and ligitate airlines and plane manufacturers until they realise that it is cheaper to develop better detecting equipment."
That seems to be the attitude of many people for many things.....sue. There ARE efforts underway to achive this very thing (forcasting turbulence). Even then, there will be encounters. You simply cannot have a 100% safe flight, much as everyone, especially the front-end crew, would like. Some people even want parachutes on board commercial flights. My suggestion to those that are worried so much.....DON'T FLY.
The Seat Belt Sign is ON as you can see. While we are expecting a smooth flight, however, turbulence up here can NOT be forcast any better than the weather at your house can. There's always a CHANCE for it, just as there's always a chance for rain or snow at your house. There's even a CHANCE for rain in the desert.
So, unless it is absolutely necessary for you to leave your seat, I would like you to remain seated with your seatbelt FASTENED.....PLEASE. Neither I nor this airline can be held responsible if you are injured because of unforecasted turbulence, if your seat belt is not fastened with you in it.
Thank you.
-----------
As to the remark made by 'bossan'....."How to avoid heavy turbulence ? Simple; improve the instruments which can detect it. How to achieve this ?( and I truly hate to say this) Sue and ligitate airlines and plane manufacturers until they realise that it is cheaper to develop better detecting equipment."
That seems to be the attitude of many people for many things.....sue. There ARE efforts underway to achive this very thing (forcasting turbulence). Even then, there will be encounters. You simply cannot have a 100% safe flight, much as everyone, especially the front-end crew, would like. Some people even want parachutes on board commercial flights. My suggestion to those that are worried so much.....DON'T FLY.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 68
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I tried to look for a severe turbulence video on youtube but could not find anything worthwhile.
To describe it, let me explain one that happened to me several years back. I never found out if we flew through a vortex of another plane or if it was clear air turbulence.
The flight was from Amsterdam to Heathrow on BMI. I was in seat D and waiting for a drink, belt attached.
Suddenly the left wing dropped extremely fast and extremely deep. It felt like we were suddenly completely vertical (left wing down, right wing up) although it was possibly just 45 degrees rather than 90 degrees, but the drop was fast, less than 2 seconds!
My right arm flew up and my hand hit the luggage bin hurting quite bad afterwards.
Some bins had fallen open and some luggage had fallen on passengers.
One stewardess was thrown sideways and burnt herself on the coffee or tea.
The whole event was over 5 seconds later when the plane was back how it should be.
The event was totally unpredictable, not even time to get frightened.
Forget all options about holding on to a seat, an armrest. The armrest onto which my right arm had been resting was up between the seats, i must have been holding on to it when my arm flew up
To describe it, let me explain one that happened to me several years back. I never found out if we flew through a vortex of another plane or if it was clear air turbulence.
The flight was from Amsterdam to Heathrow on BMI. I was in seat D and waiting for a drink, belt attached.
Suddenly the left wing dropped extremely fast and extremely deep. It felt like we were suddenly completely vertical (left wing down, right wing up) although it was possibly just 45 degrees rather than 90 degrees, but the drop was fast, less than 2 seconds!
My right arm flew up and my hand hit the luggage bin hurting quite bad afterwards.
Some bins had fallen open and some luggage had fallen on passengers.
One stewardess was thrown sideways and burnt herself on the coffee or tea.
The whole event was over 5 seconds later when the plane was back how it should be.
The event was totally unpredictable, not even time to get frightened.
Forget all options about holding on to a seat, an armrest. The armrest onto which my right arm had been resting was up between the seats, i must have been holding on to it when my arm flew up
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Straddling the Equator
Age: 52
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That seems to be the attitude of many people for many things.....sue.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking as a pax who fastens the belt so rapidly, I often have to undo it to let the other passengers board into A and B 
, I feel I need to point out that people DO need to go the toilet.
Especially on longish flights, and in cattle class, queues build up at the loos as the journey nears its end. I should thing that having twenty or so people on their way/waiting/coming back from a toilet break would not be unusual in a 747. If each of those people hits the roof and bounces off one other person, you get up to the forty injuries level pretty quickly.
If the FSB chimes unexpectedly mid-air, it can take a while to struggle back to your seat, especially if you're going against a tide of returning trolleys.
All I'm saying is, don't be too quick to lambast pax for foolishly not fastening their seatbelts.
, I feel I need to point out that people DO need to go the toilet.Especially on longish flights, and in cattle class, queues build up at the loos as the journey nears its end. I should thing that having twenty or so people on their way/waiting/coming back from a toilet break would not be unusual in a 747. If each of those people hits the roof and bounces off one other person, you get up to the forty injuries level pretty quickly.
If the FSB chimes unexpectedly mid-air, it can take a while to struggle back to your seat, especially if you're going against a tide of returning trolleys.
All I'm saying is, don't be too quick to lambast pax for foolishly not fastening their seatbelts.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 79
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DC-ATE
" This is your Catain speaking ect " Hate to tell you this, but most of the time I can't even hear what comes out of the cocpit....Also bear in mind that a fair number of your passengers don't speak/understand your language.
I have never sued anybody in my life, but unfortunatly that seems to be the only way to progress.
Fully appreciate that one cannot forecast the weather 100 % accurately; I was talking about detection equipment.
Who would have thought-some 25 years ago- that CAT detecting equipment would be in use; yet, manufacturers are making great strides.
I am not the least concerned about my safety when I fly ( a lot ) but there is always room for improvement ?
" This is your Catain speaking ect " Hate to tell you this, but most of the time I can't even hear what comes out of the cocpit....Also bear in mind that a fair number of your passengers don't speak/understand your language.
I have never sued anybody in my life, but unfortunatly that seems to be the only way to progress.
Fully appreciate that one cannot forecast the weather 100 % accurately; I was talking about detection equipment.
Who would have thought-some 25 years ago- that CAT detecting equipment would be in use; yet, manufacturers are making great strides.
I am not the least concerned about my safety when I fly ( a lot ) but there is always room for improvement ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
You simply cannot have a 100% safe flight
Then think about the image that airlines try to create (understandably) to market their products.
The problem is that airline flights so rarely encounter any problems, that the industry has created a whole generation (or two) of passengers, who are conditioned to the journey being similar to a train journey.
How many pax have experienced a wing drop as described by van Horck? Not me and my pax flight hours are well into the 000s.
The majority do not perceive the risks, as modern jet airliners are comfortable and usually avoid the worst weather conditions. Like van Horck, I have battled my way around in small aircraft and am most respectful of mother nature.
The dilemma, for the industry, is that raising the profile may cause passengers to become fearful and impact on sales figuresl.
So we have bland briefings that put across the info, but in a way that has little impact for those who do not understand the environment.
Awareness raising and sales figures become accidental adversaries.
Since were into seatbelt management issues again, some more war stories.
I have seen first hand where unexpected excursions happened in flight without the seatbelt sign on. So of course all those among us already know it's smart to wear a belt at all times.
On The Other Hand as passengers we do watch the belt sign to judge whether to get up and take a wee, reach down and move our carry ons, etc.
Since I'm with Van Horck (BTDT) I do appreciate the call from the cockpit warning about the need to keep the belt fastened at all times as well as reports of some turbulence ahead.
For the specific warning issue I hold my bladder. For the general warning I watch the Cabin Crew and if they move, I move.
I've been through some turbulence, loosing food plates drinks etc. with my belt fastened. the worst part is the lack of shoulder restraint which allows your upper body to snap about
I have seen first hand where unexpected excursions happened in flight without the seatbelt sign on. So of course all those among us already know it's smart to wear a belt at all times.
On The Other Hand as passengers we do watch the belt sign to judge whether to get up and take a wee, reach down and move our carry ons, etc.
Since I'm with Van Horck (BTDT) I do appreciate the call from the cockpit warning about the need to keep the belt fastened at all times as well as reports of some turbulence ahead.
For the specific warning issue I hold my bladder. For the general warning I watch the Cabin Crew and if they move, I move.
I've been through some turbulence, loosing food plates drinks etc. with my belt fastened. the worst part is the lack of shoulder restraint which allows your upper body to snap about
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
vanHorck & supporting cast, let’s try a small analogy. Never perfect but perhaps illuminating. 
You’re attending a Formula 1 race as a spectator. There’s a sponsor tent where you can mingle with the drivers, the mechanics and all the other professionals who make up a Formula 1 team.
You grab a beer and saunter over to where you spot Hamilton, Kovalainnen, Massa and some other people in team-overalls talking about their last race and pleasantly answering questions from interested people just like you.
You take the floor and emphatically announce that in order to win a Formula 1 race, it is important to make sure that the wheels on the car always turn.
…. when they remain severely under-impressed, you don’t get it. You drive your Opel Astra to work every day, and as a prudent driver you even took one of those how-to-drive-on-slippery-surfaces courses; of course they should be impressed with your idea and thankful that you share it with them…
After gracing them with your first major insight, you carry on telling them how you have seen the drivers tell the mechanics to put on dry tyres when clearly intermediate ones were called for.
… you have tyres on your car after all, you know about these things …
When one of the tent managers then tells you off for irritating the professionals with empty verbiage, you sulk mightily and maintain that your opinion is just as valid as anybody else’s.
Let me tell you something; it isn’t.
This is the flagship forum of the web’s foremost aviation bulletin board. Set up by professional pilots for professional pilots and other aviation professionals.
Everybody is more than welcome to read, to ask questions and to further their knowledge of professional aviation.
What we are not keen on, and see far too much of here, is people who think that having a PPL, a degree in Flight Simming or merely being a frequent flyer qualifies them to proclaim as gospel their opinion on the actions of professional cockpit- and cabin crew members.
Stating your opinion on matters you know little about can be done in Jet Blast. Not here.
PS: I’m not liking myself to the drivers; maybe the person who dusts off the tyres.
You’re attending a Formula 1 race as a spectator. There’s a sponsor tent where you can mingle with the drivers, the mechanics and all the other professionals who make up a Formula 1 team.
You grab a beer and saunter over to where you spot Hamilton, Kovalainnen, Massa and some other people in team-overalls talking about their last race and pleasantly answering questions from interested people just like you.
You take the floor and emphatically announce that in order to win a Formula 1 race, it is important to make sure that the wheels on the car always turn.
…. when they remain severely under-impressed, you don’t get it. You drive your Opel Astra to work every day, and as a prudent driver you even took one of those how-to-drive-on-slippery-surfaces courses; of course they should be impressed with your idea and thankful that you share it with them…
After gracing them with your first major insight, you carry on telling them how you have seen the drivers tell the mechanics to put on dry tyres when clearly intermediate ones were called for.
… you have tyres on your car after all, you know about these things …
When one of the tent managers then tells you off for irritating the professionals with empty verbiage, you sulk mightily and maintain that your opinion is just as valid as anybody else’s.
Let me tell you something; it isn’t.
This is the flagship forum of the web’s foremost aviation bulletin board. Set up by professional pilots for professional pilots and other aviation professionals.
Everybody is more than welcome to read, to ask questions and to further their knowledge of professional aviation.
What we are not keen on, and see far too much of here, is people who think that having a PPL, a degree in Flight Simming or merely being a frequent flyer qualifies them to proclaim as gospel their opinion on the actions of professional cockpit- and cabin crew members.
Stating your opinion on matters you know little about can be done in Jet Blast. Not here.
PS: I’m not liking myself to the drivers; maybe the person who dusts off the tyres.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: the balmy beautiful south
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Flaps Forty, but the FSB sign is an issue. People will get up and go to the lavatory if it has been illuminated for an extended period of time during calm conditions and if no specific warning has been given by the flight crew (ie. expecting turbulence ahead).
I am a pilot for a major airline and I have done both short haul and long haul flights. There are 3 times that I have noticed the FSB sign on unnecessarily.
1. The pilots just plain forget that it is on. I would say that about 5% of the time after we exit turbulence we just plain forget that the seat belt sign is on and may leave it on for longer than really needed.
2. During night flights when there is intermittent light turbulence some pilots will leave the sign on at all times so sleeping pax are not disturbed by the required CC pa's. There are usually differing views with the crews I fly with as to whether this is appropriate or not.
3. On some sectors that are notorious for annoying or harassing pax (ie. TLV-YYZ) I've heard of some Captains leaving the FSB sign on in an attempt to keep some level of order in the back.
Anyway, I really do think that these self-proclaimed SLF have a point and that some debate needs to take place between CC and pilots as to when it is appropriate for the FSB to be left on.
I am a pilot for a major airline and I have done both short haul and long haul flights. There are 3 times that I have noticed the FSB sign on unnecessarily.
1. The pilots just plain forget that it is on. I would say that about 5% of the time after we exit turbulence we just plain forget that the seat belt sign is on and may leave it on for longer than really needed.
2. During night flights when there is intermittent light turbulence some pilots will leave the sign on at all times so sleeping pax are not disturbed by the required CC pa's. There are usually differing views with the crews I fly with as to whether this is appropriate or not.
3. On some sectors that are notorious for annoying or harassing pax (ie. TLV-YYZ) I've heard of some Captains leaving the FSB sign on in an attempt to keep some level of order in the back.
Anyway, I really do think that these self-proclaimed SLF have a point and that some debate needs to take place between CC and pilots as to when it is appropriate for the FSB to be left on.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the flagship forum of the web’s foremost aviation bulletin board. Set up by professional pilots for professional pilots and other aviation professionals.
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DHC6tropics, totally agree with you. Communication between cockpit, CC and pax is essential for making sure that the pax understand why the sign is on, for the pax to be willing to obey it and for CC to properly enforce compliance.
1. In this case it is up to the senior cabin crew member to call the pilots on the interphone. 9 times out of 10 the sign plings off before I get as far as " guys, how much longer.... " The tenth time they tell me that it will remain on a while longer because of XYZ. I share the info with the my cabin colleagues and we continue enforcing pax compliance.
2. I am not familiar with this, as we don't do it this way in our company. What most happens on the flights I am on is that I make a very specific PA, explaining to the pax why it is a good idea to keep the seat belt fastened at all times, explaining that on most LH flights the FSB sign will come on a few times and that when that happens, we from the CC are obliged by law to check that every pax has his seat belt fastened. I then suggest to the pax that they keep their belts visibly fastened, above their blankets, so that we won't have to wake them up to check the belt in case of turbulence. I then assure the Captain that we will carefully check each and every pax each and every time they switch the FSB sign on, and that we will strictly enforce it. We usually then agree that during night flights there will be no announcements made abut the FSB sign. This rewards the pax who listened to the PA and fastened their belts by allowing them some undisturbed sleep time, and it makes it 'morally' easier for the FAs to wake up forewarned people whose belts are invisible or clearly unfastened.
3. As stated in my first post, I have seen it happen twice in my whole career. Both times in extremis and not because the CC needed a clear aisle. If your experience is different, then far be it from me to disagree with you.
1. In this case it is up to the senior cabin crew member to call the pilots on the interphone. 9 times out of 10 the sign plings off before I get as far as " guys, how much longer.... " The tenth time they tell me that it will remain on a while longer because of XYZ. I share the info with the my cabin colleagues and we continue enforcing pax compliance.
2. I am not familiar with this, as we don't do it this way in our company. What most happens on the flights I am on is that I make a very specific PA, explaining to the pax why it is a good idea to keep the seat belt fastened at all times, explaining that on most LH flights the FSB sign will come on a few times and that when that happens, we from the CC are obliged by law to check that every pax has his seat belt fastened. I then suggest to the pax that they keep their belts visibly fastened, above their blankets, so that we won't have to wake them up to check the belt in case of turbulence. I then assure the Captain that we will carefully check each and every pax each and every time they switch the FSB sign on, and that we will strictly enforce it. We usually then agree that during night flights there will be no announcements made abut the FSB sign. This rewards the pax who listened to the PA and fastened their belts by allowing them some undisturbed sleep time, and it makes it 'morally' easier for the FAs to wake up forewarned people whose belts are invisible or clearly unfastened.
3. As stated in my first post, I have seen it happen twice in my whole career. Both times in extremis and not because the CC needed a clear aisle. If your experience is different, then far be it from me to disagree with you.