BA and Project Columbus II
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Originally Posted by Draglift
...The cabin crew all seem terrified of being fined by the union if some pilot gets stuck in a hold or does not get a stand on arrival and exceeds their maximum hours. Do people ever get fined or is this a myth?
It's a MYTH. Good and proper. But sadly it's one which BASSA seem in no hurry to clarify.
A Union is something which you join voluntarily. the union works for you. It's there for its representatives to speak on your behalf in negotiations with the company.
You pay them your money. How can they possibly "Fine" you? They have absolutely no legal grounds or rights whatsoever for the levying of any fines.
Would you pay it if they tried to? B*ggered if I would. You'd just leave, right? Tell them what they can do with their membership, cancel your subscription with payroll and that'd be an end to it.
The absolute worst they can do, the ultimate sanction as it were, is to expel you from their ranks and cancel your membership. That's it. And even if they do that you'll still receive the same pay rises etc. as the guys still in the union because the negotiations which they conduct determine the pay levels of all cabin crew employed by the company. Union members or not.
Always remember that it's you that pays their salaries. They need you more than you need them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerUK69
Quite often BA elects to "ferry" without seeing if the cabin crew can have an alleviation to work one down from the unions
AAaaaaaaaaaaargh!!
It - Is - Not - Up - To - The - Union!
If it's legal, you can do it. Operational stuff takes priority.
This is why BA will have such a big, big problem. When the prevailing mindset is that the airline is run for the benefit of the union.
Ten west
correct leaving base cabin crew short from base is legal from a scheme point of view and like a lot of operational staff we also have collective agreements with BA and like it or not the agreements form part of our contract of employment and BA and BASSA do have to enter into dialogue when it is necessary to to operate crew down.
So when you shout "it's not up to BASSA" unfortunately BASSA do have some say in it.
that's just the way it is at the moment, things may change the proof will be in the pudding as it were,but for now those agreements are in place.
Sadly the reason the collective agreements are in place are to stop overzealous managers doing what they like to the cabin crew !!
the operation is is important but so is a work life balance that most of us want. With our manager being heard to say things like "the crew should think themselves lucky to go to New York" when there were no hotel rooms due to a conference in the city and the said manager wanted the cabin crew to share !! With this kind of attitude towards the cabin crew at BA is it any wonder the cabin crew rely on BASSA as much as they do !
Originally Posted by FlyerUK69
Quite often BA elects to "ferry" without seeing if the cabin crew can have an alleviation to work one down from the unions
AAaaaaaaaaaaargh!!
It - Is - Not - Up - To - The - Union!
If it's legal, you can do it. Operational stuff takes priority.
This is why BA will have such a big, big problem. When the prevailing mindset is that the airline is run for the benefit of the union.
Ten west
correct leaving base cabin crew short from base is legal from a scheme point of view and like a lot of operational staff we also have collective agreements with BA and like it or not the agreements form part of our contract of employment and BA and BASSA do have to enter into dialogue when it is necessary to to operate crew down.
So when you shout "it's not up to BASSA" unfortunately BASSA do have some say in it.
that's just the way it is at the moment, things may change the proof will be in the pudding as it were,but for now those agreements are in place.
Sadly the reason the collective agreements are in place are to stop overzealous managers doing what they like to the cabin crew !!
the operation is is important but so is a work life balance that most of us want. With our manager being heard to say things like "the crew should think themselves lucky to go to New York" when there were no hotel rooms due to a conference in the city and the said manager wanted the cabin crew to share !! With this kind of attitude towards the cabin crew at BA is it any wonder the cabin crew rely on BASSA as much as they do !
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Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one FlyerUK69.
I still maintain that if someone wants to work against the wishes of BASSA then there is not a damn thing that BASSA can do about it apart from expelling the offending worker from the union. Assuming of course that the worker in question is even a member of the union in the first place!
I wish no disrespect to either your good self or your colleagues, but if you'd like to know what happens in extremis when a workforce swears blind allegiance to the politically-motivated leadership of a trades union then just read up on the 1984 Miner's strike.
"Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
I hope not.
PS:
SHARE a hotel room with a colleague in extremis? Heaven forbid! 
Don't ever join the armed forces, will you?
I still maintain that if someone wants to work against the wishes of BASSA then there is not a damn thing that BASSA can do about it apart from expelling the offending worker from the union. Assuming of course that the worker in question is even a member of the union in the first place!
I wish no disrespect to either your good self or your colleagues, but if you'd like to know what happens in extremis when a workforce swears blind allegiance to the politically-motivated leadership of a trades union then just read up on the 1984 Miner's strike.
"Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
I hope not.
PS:
there were no hotel rooms due to a conference in the city and the said manager wanted the cabin crew to share !!
Don't ever join the armed forces, will you?
Last edited by Ten West; 9th Mar 2009 at 22:24.
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Cabin crew ever leave base with 8/7 on the 777
Not saying it's good just that it's legal and possible despite what you may have been told - there was a red notice though it may have been over written by a union mail shot I suppose
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May I ask a question.....
Many have mooted that BA cabin crews conditions should change.
Ok. Your entitled to your opinion.
I would ask...what too?
Should this be for LHR and LGW? (As they are on different T&Cs)
I would hope the answer would be just above market rate, just like the pilots.
So....
Once BA proposals for Cabin Crew become common knowledge (and they will), and should they be less than market rate and permanent, what would be the pilot contributors view be then?
Many have mooted that BA cabin crews conditions should change.
Ok. Your entitled to your opinion.
I would ask...what too?
Should this be for LHR and LGW? (As they are on different T&Cs)
I would hope the answer would be just above market rate, just like the pilots.
So....
Once BA proposals for Cabin Crew become common knowledge (and they will), and should they be less than market rate and permanent, what would be the pilot contributors view be then?
Last edited by WeLieInTheShadows; 10th Mar 2009 at 00:02.
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Ten west,
Share with a colleague , well that just depends on who it is
I'm a bit old for the armed forces now,
and apparently you can't say no either !! 
oh and do they have a union ?
I know a fair amount about the miners strike, my dad was a senior manager at the coal board as it was then !!
None of us like change but change will come like it or not, all I'm saying if it's too drastic the cabin crew will have nothing to lose but strike.
I say again if you're going to lose your house due to a cut in salary you may as well fight to the end !!
As for going against the wishes of the union if we all did that it wouldn't be a union, there is no such thing as the power of one when it comes to industrial relations !!
Share with a colleague , well that just depends on who it is
I'm a bit old for the armed forces now,
and apparently you can't say no either !! oh and do they have a union ?I know a fair amount about the miners strike, my dad was a senior manager at the coal board as it was then !!
None of us like change but change will come like it or not, all I'm saying if it's too drastic the cabin crew will have nothing to lose but strike.
I say again if you're going to lose your house due to a cut in salary you may as well fight to the end !!
As for going against the wishes of the union if we all did that it wouldn't be a union, there is no such thing as the power of one when it comes to industrial relations !!
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I know a fair amount about the miners strike, my dad was a senior manager at the coal board as it was then !!
Arthur Scargill then decided that he wasn't having any of it and decided to use the miners as his own personal troops in his war against Maggie.
End result? No more coal industry.
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Shadows - didn't the leaked Columbus document say crews should be paid a premium to attract the best candidates? That suggests to me even BA want to pay slightly above market rate. However on my last HKG the cabin crew were on £339.37 allowances plus 2 box payments each, which strikes me as some way above market rate!
Flyer - if you're going to lose your house (and I very much doubt anyone is going to lose their house as an outcome of this) is it better to lose it and have a job or lose it and not have a job?
Flyer - if you're going to lose your house (and I very much doubt anyone is going to lose their house as an outcome of this) is it better to lose it and have a job or lose it and not have a job?
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Sorry, slight thread drift, but can I ask how much a box payment is and what exactly triggers it?
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I'm not too happy discussing figures on an open forum, but a box payment starts at £104 for a long range flight over 12:30hrs. Different ranks recieve different rates and the boxes are spread between box 1 12:30-13:00hrs, box 2 13:01-14:00hrs, box 3 1401:-15:29hrs, box 4 15:30-17:30hrs and box 5 17:30hrs -. There are no box 5 trips and only 1 box 4 trip. The figures are not times but flight duty day lengths.
The majority of long haul flights are not box, (or long range trips.)
A regular crew complaint is not being rostered a long range trip for months at a time.
The majority of long haul flights are not box, (or long range trips.)
A regular crew complaint is not being rostered a long range trip for months at a time.
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Carnage.
Absolutely right the leaked document did indeed say that.
The crew on your HK may well have done very well. What about the crews who go to India or Africa? Or EFLHR crews who do the "charity flights" that trigger virtually nothing?
I agree the allowance system is outdated, and applaud the pilots for changing to what I think is a very sensible and equitable system.
My question (again) is what if BA proposed less than market rate?
Where would you and the opinions of others posting on here stand then?
Going on from that....What do you think WOULD be fair/correct then?
Many on here seem to be of the opinion the crew are paid "too much". I think it is fair to ask what those same people think is "too little" and "the correct amount".
Surely not a difficult question. I'm sure everyone has an opinion.
Absolutely right the leaked document did indeed say that.
The crew on your HK may well have done very well. What about the crews who go to India or Africa? Or EFLHR crews who do the "charity flights" that trigger virtually nothing?
I agree the allowance system is outdated, and applaud the pilots for changing to what I think is a very sensible and equitable system.
My question (again) is what if BA proposed less than market rate?
Where would you and the opinions of others posting on here stand then?
Going on from that....What do you think WOULD be fair/correct then?
Many on here seem to be of the opinion the crew are paid "too much". I think it is fair to ask what those same people think is "too little" and "the correct amount".
Surely not a difficult question. I'm sure everyone has an opinion.
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I don't think it's a question of the crew being paid "Too much".
It's more that they are governed by a very inflexible set of operating rules in an industry where flexibility is of a very high importance.
It's more that they are governed by a very inflexible set of operating rules in an industry where flexibility is of a very high importance.