Child seat belts
Thread Starter
Child seat belts
I have a young son (now 3) who has travelled with us since new born. Up to the age of 2 he of course did not need his own seat and was able to travel on either my or my wife’s lap. Since the age of two he has had the benefit of his own seat. As a rule of thumb anything sub 4hrs we fly economy and 4hrs + Business.
There have been odd occasions (e.g. flying in poor weather, to keep him amused and informed of what is going on, non standard seat arrangements etc) where despite him having his own seat I have requested and been given a child lap belt so that he could sit with me for the take-off and landing phases. Airlines accommodating this wish have included Qatar, SAA and BA.
Last week flying back from the US with BA in Club the crew member I spoke to refused my request simply stating he was over two years old. I was not inclined to argue although pointed out that BA colleagues had given me a belt just three weeks previously on the way out. Indeed on that particular flight I had handed the child belt back during the flight and it was returned to me again prior to landing. I also note the BA safety card shows a very clear picture of a small child (not a baby) restrained on the lap belt
Out of interest and to avoid any future mis-understanding I would appreciate Cabin Crew advice on this issue.
BTW I acknowledge Danny’s ruling, but this seems the only forum where I will get a learned answer
There have been odd occasions (e.g. flying in poor weather, to keep him amused and informed of what is going on, non standard seat arrangements etc) where despite him having his own seat I have requested and been given a child lap belt so that he could sit with me for the take-off and landing phases. Airlines accommodating this wish have included Qatar, SAA and BA.
Last week flying back from the US with BA in Club the crew member I spoke to refused my request simply stating he was over two years old. I was not inclined to argue although pointed out that BA colleagues had given me a belt just three weeks previously on the way out. Indeed on that particular flight I had handed the child belt back during the flight and it was returned to me again prior to landing. I also note the BA safety card shows a very clear picture of a small child (not a baby) restrained on the lap belt
Out of interest and to avoid any future mis-understanding I would appreciate Cabin Crew advice on this issue.
BTW I acknowledge Danny’s ruling, but this seems the only forum where I will get a learned answer
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TCU,
The crew that gave you an infant belt for take off and landing shouldn't have done.
I actually looked into this, as I wanted to be able to give an informed answer to parents, such as yourself, that asked the reasons for the cut off age of two. I was told that, at two, a childs spine is starting to stiffen and is nowhere near as flexible as it was when the child was an infant. Because of this, the pressures of an adult leaning over the child in an emergency could cause spinal damage to the child.
Obviously, I'm not a doctor, so can only go by what I was told by this person, who is in the medical profession. I have to say, it does seem to be logical, but if anyone knows any better, please feel free to correct me.
Jsl
The crew that gave you an infant belt for take off and landing shouldn't have done.
I actually looked into this, as I wanted to be able to give an informed answer to parents, such as yourself, that asked the reasons for the cut off age of two. I was told that, at two, a childs spine is starting to stiffen and is nowhere near as flexible as it was when the child was an infant. Because of this, the pressures of an adult leaning over the child in an emergency could cause spinal damage to the child.
Obviously, I'm not a doctor, so can only go by what I was told by this person, who is in the medical profession. I have to say, it does seem to be logical, but if anyone knows any better, please feel free to correct me.
Jsl
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In my company infant seat belts are up to two years old, then they need to be seated on their own seat. It is not allowed to provide one for a child older than two even if the parents ask. As jetset lady said, after two they are to big for the infant seat belt that could harm them instead of protecting them.
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You can find more on the topic on this thread http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...-take-off.html
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TCU
Infants are defined as persons who are less than 2 years old.
The methods of restraint depends on age limits.
0-less than 6 months old.. extension seat belt
6months- less than 2 yrs ..extension seat belt OR car type safety seat
2yrs- less than 3 yrs Car safety seat OR passenger seat and seat belt
3yrs or more Passenger seat and seat belt.
The Car Type Seat
Must be forward facing and be strapped securely to the passenger seat using the seat belt.
The car seat must have harnesses over the lap, torso, and crutch.
Car type seat frame must be made from metal plastic/polycarbonate material.
If the seat doesn`t conform to the above, can be used in cruise when the seat belt sign is off and never for take off and landing.
Several years ago I stopped a mother using a child seat on their return journey from Portugal as it did not meet the above standard for take off or landing but cruise wise it was fine. As the crew had allowed them to use the seat on their outbound flight for both take off and landing, I got a full mouthful told I was wrong etc I was basically the worst person I the world. The family even refused food and drink (the huffy game) Of course a full complaint letter to the airline was recieved and the passenger felt they were so in the right they even included the full make and name of the seat.
I wonder who was right? mmmm
The above little story is just to show that on your outbound flight the crew could (was) wrong whilst the return crew were right. Interesting, why is it always the return crew in the wrong?
(is it because you got what you wanted O/B?? )
Infants are defined as persons who are less than 2 years old.
The methods of restraint depends on age limits.
0-less than 6 months old.. extension seat belt
6months- less than 2 yrs ..extension seat belt OR car type safety seat
2yrs- less than 3 yrs Car safety seat OR passenger seat and seat belt
3yrs or more Passenger seat and seat belt.
The Car Type Seat
Must be forward facing and be strapped securely to the passenger seat using the seat belt.
The car seat must have harnesses over the lap, torso, and crutch.
Car type seat frame must be made from metal plastic/polycarbonate material.
If the seat doesn`t conform to the above, can be used in cruise when the seat belt sign is off and never for take off and landing.
Several years ago I stopped a mother using a child seat on their return journey from Portugal as it did not meet the above standard for take off or landing but cruise wise it was fine. As the crew had allowed them to use the seat on their outbound flight for both take off and landing, I got a full mouthful told I was wrong etc I was basically the worst person I the world. The family even refused food and drink (the huffy game) Of course a full complaint letter to the airline was recieved and the passenger felt they were so in the right they even included the full make and name of the seat.
I wonder who was right? mmmm
The above little story is just to show that on your outbound flight the crew could (was) wrong whilst the return crew were right. Interesting, why is it always the return crew in the wrong?
(is it because you got what you wanted O/B??
)
Last edited by Tiger; 25th Jan 2009 at 16:39.
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As BA crew (and former Qatar Airways too) I can confirm that you should not have been given an extension seat belt under any circumstances if your child was over the age of 2.
As Jetsetlady said, if you were to adopt the brace position for any reason regardless of whether there was an impact or not you could cause severe and possibly permanent damage to your childs still developing body.
What you heard from the BA crew member on your last flight may not have been what you wanted to hear but it was the right thing, the previous crew member was in the wrong and clearly does not read their memos as this is a subject we get reminded about over and over again! lol!
As Jetsetlady said, if you were to adopt the brace position for any reason regardless of whether there was an impact or not you could cause severe and possibly permanent damage to your childs still developing body.
What you heard from the BA crew member on your last flight may not have been what you wanted to hear but it was the right thing, the previous crew member was in the wrong and clearly does not read their memos as this is a subject we get reminded about over and over again! lol!
Thread Starter
Dear all,
The advice above is very much appreciated. PPRUNE at its best
Far from BA advice on my last flight not being what I wanted to hear, it actually prompted me to ask the question here so as to clear up in my mind an unclear issue. Please give me the benefit of this.
Clearly my experience suggest that perhaps not all crew also understand the issue. apaddyintheuk - Memo's are the poorest form of corporate communication I know, so perhaps its no wonder the message is not always followed.
I very much admire the job you all do day in day out and long jet lagged hour after hour. Great cabin crew, who I find reside on the majority of flights, really can make a passengers day.
A few of points:
1. Tiger - The return cabin crew was not wrong, but right and indeed I acknowledged the advice given to me. I simply pointed out that the same company had exercised different rules 3 weeks earlier; indeed in the landing phase, voluntarily. I am a very regular and safety concious flyer...I watch the briefing, read the card, know where my life jacket is, count the seats to the exit and keep shoes on until after TO. I simply didn't know about the lap belt issue as crew kept giving them to me. As a slight aside, I avoid my family flying airlines with herringbone seating as I believe one day this is going to cause a big problem and I don't want to be in one of those seats when it happens
2. There is no difference in the spine of a child that is 1 year and 364 days old and one who is 2 years an a day old, so I wonder is there a simple insurance issue here?
3. apaddyintheuk - With regard to the bracing issue, the bracing position on the BA backward facing Club seat is arms against the chest. I had chosen this seat to sit with my son as I believe it the safest in a rapid deceleration and would avoid crush. Admittedly, this is not the case on Qatar and SAA's forward facers. To be frank however, in a rapid decel, a small child would submarine the normal lap belt on a large leather clad business class style forward facer...its why child car seats have shoulder restraint.
Keep up the good work and Happy landings
TCU
The advice above is very much appreciated. PPRUNE at its best
Far from BA advice on my last flight not being what I wanted to hear, it actually prompted me to ask the question here so as to clear up in my mind an unclear issue. Please give me the benefit of this.
Clearly my experience suggest that perhaps not all crew also understand the issue. apaddyintheuk - Memo's are the poorest form of corporate communication I know, so perhaps its no wonder the message is not always followed.
I very much admire the job you all do day in day out and long jet lagged hour after hour. Great cabin crew, who I find reside on the majority of flights, really can make a passengers day.
A few of points:
1. Tiger - The return cabin crew was not wrong, but right and indeed I acknowledged the advice given to me. I simply pointed out that the same company had exercised different rules 3 weeks earlier; indeed in the landing phase, voluntarily. I am a very regular and safety concious flyer...I watch the briefing, read the card, know where my life jacket is, count the seats to the exit and keep shoes on until after TO. I simply didn't know about the lap belt issue as crew kept giving them to me. As a slight aside, I avoid my family flying airlines with herringbone seating as I believe one day this is going to cause a big problem and I don't want to be in one of those seats when it happens
2. There is no difference in the spine of a child that is 1 year and 364 days old and one who is 2 years an a day old, so I wonder is there a simple insurance issue here?
3. apaddyintheuk - With regard to the bracing issue, the bracing position on the BA backward facing Club seat is arms against the chest. I had chosen this seat to sit with my son as I believe it the safest in a rapid deceleration and would avoid crush. Admittedly, this is not the case on Qatar and SAA's forward facers. To be frank however, in a rapid decel, a small child would submarine the normal lap belt on a large leather clad business class style forward facer...its why child car seats have shoulder restraint.
Keep up the good work and Happy landings
TCU
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LOL, Indeed memos are lousy which is why it is also drilled into us every year at our SEP refresh training and often mentioned again by the CSD at our briefing at the start of every trip. However sometimes crew think they are being helpful or avoiding an argument by just allowing it which in my opinion is very dangerous and wrong.
You may be interested to know that BA have now authorised the use of the Amsafe child restraint device which if you are unfamiliar with is basically similar to a car seat restraint for toddlers/young children which can be easily fixed to a seat to compliment the main lap belt. The only catch is that it wont work on the First, Club World or World Traveller Plus seat but works fine in World/Euro Traveller, Club Europe.
You may be interested to know that BA have now authorised the use of the Amsafe child restraint device which if you are unfamiliar with is basically similar to a car seat restraint for toddlers/young children which can be easily fixed to a seat to compliment the main lap belt. The only catch is that it wont work on the First, Club World or World Traveller Plus seat but works fine in World/Euro Traveller, Club Europe.
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Sorry A B C, but if your airline SOP's say no infants on the lap after 2, then that does not give you a years grace. By doing what you are doing, not only are you helping to create the confusion amongst parents and problems for other crew but you are leaving yourself open to all sorts of problems if something goes wrong.
TCU,
I agree that there is probably little difference between a childs spine at 1 yr and 364 days old and at 2 yrs old, but there has to be a cut off point somewhere.
Jsl
TCU,
I agree that there is probably little difference between a childs spine at 1 yr and 364 days old and at 2 yrs old, but there has to be a cut off point somewhere.
Jsl
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An interesting little thread this - I notice the references to child car seats. Many child car seats stipulate weight requirements / limitations for the children using them rather than thier age. MMM... is this
a) something to do with insurance as the original poster mentioned
b) the airline industry reaping the benefit of an additional revenue seat as soon as it can
or
c) nothing to do with safety... just the regulators imposing something without any scientific justification.
a) something to do with insurance as the original poster mentioned
b) the airline industry reaping the benefit of an additional revenue seat as soon as it can
or
c) nothing to do with safety... just the regulators imposing something without any scientific justification.
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ABP, while a law is one thing, and a company SOP is another, crew do not have the leeway to say, "well, it's against SOP but still legal". If the SOP says 2 years, that's it. I know children will kick and scream, but they're children... they do that. It's important to be consistent, otherwise pax will be confused and the next crew will have a tougher time trying to implement the SOP.
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boarding pass beat me to it - in no way do any of us have the right of leeway with SOP's the clue is in the name - if your company has a standard operating procedure you are legally bound by your contract of employment to comply with it, anything else - regardless of safety risks - certainly puts your job at risk and puts those who stick to SOP's in a difficult position.
If when flying I did something that was "legal" but nevertheless against a company SOP they would have my balls.
That said SOP's are not always that clear cut - those who have had recent recurrent training at BA will know that calling the flight deck on t/o roll is normally prohibited however they are training scenarios where fire is suspected to have broken out on the runway - and in this case they are saying yes it is okay to attempt to make contact with the flight deck. It is deemed to be within the scope of the SOP.
Similarly if you are on final with the only option left to you the physical restraint with handcuffs of a 2 1/2 year old and their parent or a lap belt what are you going to do (well as main crew you are going to ask the Purser and/or the Flight Crew).
I would suggest though that in a situation like this it should be pointed out to the parent that in no way is the situation acceptable. It is not okay just to say oh well it's against an SOP but it's not illegal therefore I will hand over an extension seat belt without further explanation or investigation.
So in conclusion SOP's are their to be followed and not lightly pushed aside on a whim - only when it becomes dangerous not to use common sense is it okay.
If when flying I did something that was "legal" but nevertheless against a company SOP they would have my balls.
That said SOP's are not always that clear cut - those who have had recent recurrent training at BA will know that calling the flight deck on t/o roll is normally prohibited however they are training scenarios where fire is suspected to have broken out on the runway - and in this case they are saying yes it is okay to attempt to make contact with the flight deck. It is deemed to be within the scope of the SOP.
Similarly if you are on final with the only option left to you the physical restraint with handcuffs of a 2 1/2 year old and their parent or a lap belt what are you going to do (well as main crew you are going to ask the Purser and/or the Flight Crew).
I would suggest though that in a situation like this it should be pointed out to the parent that in no way is the situation acceptable. It is not okay just to say oh well it's against an SOP but it's not illegal therefore I will hand over an extension seat belt without further explanation or investigation.
So in conclusion SOP's are their to be followed and not lightly pushed aside on a whim - only when it becomes dangerous not to use common sense is it okay.
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Dear ABP, sorry to have offended you!
I work for an airline who generally have clear SOPs. It says the belts are for infants under 2, or fat people. As per Tiger's post above, there are some options for the under 3s, but no infant belts for over 2s. Yes, we've all had plenty of discussions with parents, and we've all been asked quietly by the parent to tell, nay threaten 'Rebecca' to put on her seatbelt (because they don't have the authority themselves).
The thing about SOPs is they need to be easy to understand, easy to remember, easy to communicate and easy to impliment. If I said to parent, sorry, Johnny is 4.1 kg and the limit is 4, parent would say he's just drunk a litre of milk and he's wearing his winter coat.
"Is he over 2 yet?" is much easier than getting out the scales.
If he's a 26 month old wriggler, it's up to the parent to ensure the seatbelt is tight and that, like in church, you're not supposed to be rutching and thrutching. If he's a big heavy 23 month old, he's still going to fit, because those belts are also used for fat people... and they're really long. But parents CAN, if they choose, buy a seat for him, and put him in an approved car-seat.
Yes, I acknowledge it's not easy for parents, and I also hear EWXY examples of when there are situations you need to go outside Standard Operating Procedures... when things aren't standard let's say... I agree, one temper tantrum 2 year old in an infant seatbelt is better than a go-around, but to echo what EWXY says, it needs a clear explanation to the parents that it is an unsatisfactory situation.
I work for an airline who generally have clear SOPs. It says the belts are for infants under 2, or fat people. As per Tiger's post above, there are some options for the under 3s, but no infant belts for over 2s. Yes, we've all had plenty of discussions with parents, and we've all been asked quietly by the parent to tell, nay threaten 'Rebecca' to put on her seatbelt (because they don't have the authority themselves).
The thing about SOPs is they need to be easy to understand, easy to remember, easy to communicate and easy to impliment. If I said to parent, sorry, Johnny is 4.1 kg and the limit is 4, parent would say he's just drunk a litre of milk and he's wearing his winter coat.
"Is he over 2 yet?" is much easier than getting out the scales.
If he's a 26 month old wriggler, it's up to the parent to ensure the seatbelt is tight and that, like in church, you're not supposed to be rutching and thrutching. If he's a big heavy 23 month old, he's still going to fit, because those belts are also used for fat people... and they're really long. But parents CAN, if they choose, buy a seat for him, and put him in an approved car-seat.
Yes, I acknowledge it's not easy for parents, and I also hear EWXY examples of when there are situations you need to go outside Standard Operating Procedures... when things aren't standard let's say... I agree, one temper tantrum 2 year old in an infant seatbelt is better than a go-around, but to echo what EWXY says, it needs a clear explanation to the parents that it is an unsatisfactory situation.
