XL.com/Excel Airways
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im SOOOOOO GLAD to SEE this is happening at XL it is about time!! They have scrimped and scraped through the last 2 years getting rid of the decent crew and keeping the SH***Y crew and all those Trainers who were only there as they were sacked yes sacked from there previous airline for Stealing!! Anyways Rant over there all gettin there comeupance now. Thank God!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What really happened!!
Fit for the Future
UNITE/ XL Joint Consultation Meeting – 1 held on Tuesday 4 September at 1400
in Explorer House.
Present: (MD)
(In-flight Director)
(Head of Cabin Services)
(Employee Relations Manager)
(UNITE Regional Officer)
(UNITE Rep)
(UNITE Rep)
1. Business Overview
Mr XX opened the meeting by providing the business overview in
relation to the recent Fit for the Future memo from Mr XX.
He described how the popularity of the traditional holiday package deal through
the tour operator market has declined and is continuing to do so. This has hit the
entire airline business. The Group has had to change the way it does its business in
order to match the current market. When the Company was originally set up we
had partnerships with 45 independent tour operators. There are now only about 5
left.
Within the Group 85% of our capacity is controlled internally and we need to do it
right. The product itself needs to be changed and the internet needs to be made
use of more.
The re-branding of the XL product was a key focus for the Company, along with an
investment into our website. The West Ham sponsorship was seen as key to
getting the XL name as much exposure as possible so that customers contacted us
directly. The exposure was far greater than the same amount of spend on normal
PR in papers, advertising, etc.
The Company has had to rationalise its fleet, and change its programme to suit
the current market
The mass competition in the low cost air carrier market is affecting us badly, and
the Company needs to cut many of the 3 hour range holidays as the yield has
decreased. We must now concentrate on the low cost flight areas that are outside
the 3 hour range.
Customers now want dynamic packaging and the structure of the company needs
to be changed in order to respond to our customers’ needs.
The fleet for next year will consist of 13 x 737s and 2 x 767s, and going forward a
leaner fleet consisting of 737s and A330s.
All areas of the business are being looked at and all department heads have been
asked to come up with a plan to facilitate the 20% cost reduction requirements.
Significant resources have been invested in a new IT strategy redefining our
product in every area that will need IT support.
The Company recognises everyone’s concerns but this cost issue does need to be
addressed. The plan is for the exercise to be completed by mid-end November.
2. Introduction from Mr XX - UNITE
Mr xx introduced himself and explained that UNITE has restructured, hence
the change in Regional Officer.
He explained that the role of UNITE is to make sure that they represent their
members effectively by working together with the Company and that there is a
state of apprehension amongst the Cabin Crew at present.
Mr XX stated that UNITE viewed the commencement of the 90 day consultation
period as being today (4 September) however the Company reiterated that an
agreement had already been reached that it commenced on 20 August, the date
that UNITE had first been notified of the situation.
He went on to state the need to involve the internal representatives and the
Company agreed that this was not an issue.
The UNITE standpoint is that LIFO (last in first out) is preferred as an objective
selection criterion and that a skills analysis is not their preferred method. The
Company point of view is that the people with the best skills and abilities should
be retained, therefore would be using the following fair and objective criteria to
select individuals for the various alternatives to redundancy that were on offer and
to select for redundancy.
UNITE/ XL Joint Consultation Meeting – 1 held on Tuesday 4 September at 1400
in Explorer House.
Present: (MD)
(In-flight Director)
(Head of Cabin Services)
(Employee Relations Manager)
(UNITE Regional Officer)
(UNITE Rep)
(UNITE Rep)
1. Business Overview
Mr XX opened the meeting by providing the business overview in
relation to the recent Fit for the Future memo from Mr XX.
He described how the popularity of the traditional holiday package deal through
the tour operator market has declined and is continuing to do so. This has hit the
entire airline business. The Group has had to change the way it does its business in
order to match the current market. When the Company was originally set up we
had partnerships with 45 independent tour operators. There are now only about 5
left.
Within the Group 85% of our capacity is controlled internally and we need to do it
right. The product itself needs to be changed and the internet needs to be made
use of more.
The re-branding of the XL product was a key focus for the Company, along with an
investment into our website. The West Ham sponsorship was seen as key to
getting the XL name as much exposure as possible so that customers contacted us
directly. The exposure was far greater than the same amount of spend on normal
PR in papers, advertising, etc.
The Company has had to rationalise its fleet, and change its programme to suit
the current market
The mass competition in the low cost air carrier market is affecting us badly, and
the Company needs to cut many of the 3 hour range holidays as the yield has
decreased. We must now concentrate on the low cost flight areas that are outside
the 3 hour range.
Customers now want dynamic packaging and the structure of the company needs
to be changed in order to respond to our customers’ needs.
The fleet for next year will consist of 13 x 737s and 2 x 767s, and going forward a
leaner fleet consisting of 737s and A330s.
All areas of the business are being looked at and all department heads have been
asked to come up with a plan to facilitate the 20% cost reduction requirements.
Significant resources have been invested in a new IT strategy redefining our
product in every area that will need IT support.
The Company recognises everyone’s concerns but this cost issue does need to be
addressed. The plan is for the exercise to be completed by mid-end November.
2. Introduction from Mr XX - UNITE
Mr xx introduced himself and explained that UNITE has restructured, hence
the change in Regional Officer.
He explained that the role of UNITE is to make sure that they represent their
members effectively by working together with the Company and that there is a
state of apprehension amongst the Cabin Crew at present.
Mr XX stated that UNITE viewed the commencement of the 90 day consultation
period as being today (4 September) however the Company reiterated that an
agreement had already been reached that it commenced on 20 August, the date
that UNITE had first been notified of the situation.
He went on to state the need to involve the internal representatives and the
Company agreed that this was not an issue.
The UNITE standpoint is that LIFO (last in first out) is preferred as an objective
selection criterion and that a skills analysis is not their preferred method. The
Company point of view is that the people with the best skills and abilities should
be retained, therefore would be using the following fair and objective criteria to
select individuals for the various alternatives to redundancy that were on offer and
to select for redundancy.
•
Disciplinary Record
•
•
Attendance Record
o
o
Sickness – 1st stage, 2nd stage, 3rd stage
o
o
Absents
o
o
No Shows
o
o
Non Contactables
o
o
Late Reports
•
•
Capability, standard of work performance, aptitude, sales
•
•
Skills
•
•
Length of service
The Company suggested to UNITE that if they had any suggestions further to the
The Company suggested to UNITE that if they had any suggestions further to the
options that had already been communicated to the Cabin Crew to inform us as
soon as possible .
3. Questions and Answers
Q. How many crew do we have in each rank? Please specify permanent and
temporary crew. Please state figures for each base.
A.
LGW
PSR A/P JNR Total
61.5 52.5 213 327
MAN
PSR A/P JNR Total
32 41.5 165.5 239
BRS - all 100%
PSR A/P JNR Total
5 4 14 23
Temporary – All Juniors
LGW 115 MAN 67 BRS 14
Q. Clarification of bases that will be closed/kept open? What about STN & LCA
returning staff?
A. Bases for W07/08 – LGW, MAN, LCA, BRS
S08 LGW, MAN, LCA, BRS, GLA, DUB, EMA
Q. How many crew will be offered Bangkok/Sunwings contract? Are these
opportunities offered to all crew of all bases?
A. The Bangkok – Nok Air contract will be offered to 36 Pursers on 2 month
secondment
Sunwings at the moment offered to MAN crew. Figures to be confirmed by
Sunwing
Q. Did all bases get the letter regarding the options to avoid compulsories?
Did all get the same options? What about other bases like Dublin, Larnaca,
XL France & XL Germany?
A. No all bases did not receive the letter. MAN received an extra option of the
Sunwing contract.
Q. When will the redundancies and the other options come into effect?
A. Post 90 days consultation
Q. Departure dates for the 747, 767-200s and 757s?
A. B747 AME 12November 2007
AMJ 11November 2007
ASI operation 03October 2007
B762 01November 07
B757 NA 05September 07
ND 01November 07
Q. Airbus Arrival and Training Dates?
A. MYT 29 Feb – 30 Apr to cover B767 maintenance – seat rate deal
A330 XLF arrival – 01 May 2008
A330 XLA delivery – NOV & DEC 08, & MAR & APR 09
The training dates for this aircraft are being plotted
Q. If crew tick the box that they are not interested in any of the above does
that mean they will be first to go?
A. A selection exercise will be carried out on every perm crew member (except
those opting for voluntary redundancy)
Q. More detailed info regarding the options required, ie:
Will any crew be kept on a 100% contract?
A. Yes where required
Q. Option 1 - 50% roster – duration?
A. November – March inclusive
Q. After Sunwing’s contract what happens when we go back to XL, do we go
back full time or part time?
A After Sunwing the crew concerned will return to the UK and will be full time
for the summer.
Q. Will 100% contracts be guaranteed after that duration?
A. Cannot confirm at this stage, could be 100% for summer then may have to
go to 50% contract again for winter.
Q. Will we have to sign another contract?
A. If an alternative option has been requested and agreed then some form of
confirmation will be produced and will have to be signed by the individual.
Q. When do we leave/return back to XL?
A. November through to 01April, the exact date in November is to be
confirmed
Q. Option 2 - 5 months unpaid leave
Can you take another job or do you have to pay double tax Emergency tax
code?
A. Yes you can take another job. You will be placed on emergency tax and
you would need to claim this back from the tax office once you had
received your P45 from your alternative employer.
Q. When do we leave/return back to XL will there be a chance of calling us
back sooner?
A. November – March for Apr 01 start. Unlikely to be sooner
Q. What happens about my XL company pension?
A. Individuals can continue to contribute, but the employer’s contributions will
cease for that period.
Q. Will I have to sign a new contract when I come back
A. No
Q. Will I keep my current staff number?
A. Yes
Q. Will I go back full time? Is this guaranteed?
A. Yes for summer, as long as the company fleet plan remains the same.
Q. Option 3 - Sunwings contract
Do I have to pay for my uniform/training.
A. No
Q. How long is the training course.
A. Dependant on current qualifications & Transport Canada
Q. What is the Pay/Hours
A. answers below from Sunwing
a) We were looking for 20 crew. We would look at approximately 7 CSM's and 13
F/A's
b) The F/A's are paid $20.00 per flight hour and $30.00 for the CSM's
c) The Cabin Crew are paid per diem at $3.25 per hour while away from the
Canadian home base
d) They are paid a commission for all on board sales.
e) The crew would be operating southern turns, usually back the same day,
however, there may be the occasional out of town layover in Canada
f) The UK crews would probably be all based in Calgary, however, if we do not get
all of our numbers in Toronto, there may be a requirement for crew here
Q. Will I be demoted?
A. The decision will be Sunwing’s together with what positions are available –
they do not have an A/P position
Q. If I left the Sunwings contract before the six months are up does that mean
I have left XL?
A. Yes.
Q. What happens about illness to parents back in the UK. Will XL fly us home?
A. No – this is a Sunwing contract so would need to talk to them
Q. What if someone doesn’t like it?
A. Cases like these will be looked at on an individual basis.
Other:
Q. Can redundancy payouts be made more attractive for voluntary
redundancy to try and reduce compulsory redundancy?
A. The Company is not considering enhanced voluntary redundancy at this
stage.
Q. Compulsory redundancies – Selection for Redundancies – Seniority
A. No, full selection criteria process will be followed
Q. What work is secured for the winter?
A. Programme includes more long flights, very similar to last year & as many
ad-hocs as possible.
Q. There has been mentioned that light aircraft use in Caribbean is too
expensive and will cease? If this is correct, then what are the alternatives
for the company? Will we operate our own long haul programme this
winter?
A. All areas of expenditure are being looked at.
Q. When will 747/767 crew be trained on the 737?
A. During the Winter, from November onwards
Q. How do ex AAE crew fit into the seniority list?
A. There are no such people or list, all crew have been XL since May 06. When
they became XL their service was continuous and their original date of
joining was transferred with them.
Q. Reduction of Base Managers & Trainers/Line Trainers/ Office staff?
A. All are under review as per Peter Owen’s communication
Q. Demotion of newly promoted crew for this winter?
A. All positions are being looked at
Q. Will XL allow voluntary/compulsory made redundant crew reasonable time
off to attend job interviews?
A. Yes
Q. When will winter leave be announced?
A. In approx 10 days time
Q. Are XL UK, France & Germany all one company?
A. All separate companies
Q. What is the state of the company? Crew are concerned about refinancing
of loan that is coming up. What do XL predict for the future?
A. Discussions are ongoing regarding refinancing target date of March. This is
a painful process but puts us in a good position for the future.
Q. Commission deductions have started again. Also there hav been issues of
parts of money going missing from being placed into the safe and arriving
at Alpha. What are the money procedures at Alpha once the safe is
emptied? Any security measures in place, ie cameras or how many people
are dealing with cash?
A. The commission deductions shouldn’t have stopped. Any deductions are
split between Alpha/ XL & Crew, so they don’t have to pay all ‘unders’.
However also get paid ‘overs’.
Action: Company to attach Security aspects and flow charts to go with
minutes.
Suggestions for Possible Savings to be made by:
Using plain rubbish bags, cuttlery packs/sick bags, soaps, napkins and trays
Crew could leave unopened drink bottles on a/c and only uplift as necessary
Line Trainers on Flights observing as an extra crew member. Additional
expenses could pursers incorporate the roles of reporting back
observations?
Snys on long haul flights – unnecessary expenses
Stop & Search policy – Action for Mr XX to come back to us regarding
this
The Company thanked all for their suggestions for savings. These will be
looked at along with all the others.
4. Schedule of meetings
24/09/07 @ 1400 Company to provide responses to options prior to this
meeting
1/10/07 @ 1400
15/10/07 @ 1400
soon as possible .
3. Questions and Answers
Q. How many crew do we have in each rank? Please specify permanent and
temporary crew. Please state figures for each base.
A.
LGW
PSR A/P JNR Total
61.5 52.5 213 327
MAN
PSR A/P JNR Total
32 41.5 165.5 239
BRS - all 100%
PSR A/P JNR Total
5 4 14 23
Temporary – All Juniors
LGW 115 MAN 67 BRS 14
Q. Clarification of bases that will be closed/kept open? What about STN & LCA
returning staff?
A. Bases for W07/08 – LGW, MAN, LCA, BRS
S08 LGW, MAN, LCA, BRS, GLA, DUB, EMA
Q. How many crew will be offered Bangkok/Sunwings contract? Are these
opportunities offered to all crew of all bases?
A. The Bangkok – Nok Air contract will be offered to 36 Pursers on 2 month
secondment
Sunwings at the moment offered to MAN crew. Figures to be confirmed by
Sunwing
Q. Did all bases get the letter regarding the options to avoid compulsories?
Did all get the same options? What about other bases like Dublin, Larnaca,
XL France & XL Germany?
A. No all bases did not receive the letter. MAN received an extra option of the
Sunwing contract.
Q. When will the redundancies and the other options come into effect?
A. Post 90 days consultation
Q. Departure dates for the 747, 767-200s and 757s?
A. B747 AME 12November 2007
AMJ 11November 2007
ASI operation 03October 2007
B762 01November 07
B757 NA 05September 07
ND 01November 07
Q. Airbus Arrival and Training Dates?
A. MYT 29 Feb – 30 Apr to cover B767 maintenance – seat rate deal
A330 XLF arrival – 01 May 2008
A330 XLA delivery – NOV & DEC 08, & MAR & APR 09
The training dates for this aircraft are being plotted
Q. If crew tick the box that they are not interested in any of the above does
that mean they will be first to go?
A. A selection exercise will be carried out on every perm crew member (except
those opting for voluntary redundancy)
Q. More detailed info regarding the options required, ie:
Will any crew be kept on a 100% contract?
A. Yes where required
Q. Option 1 - 50% roster – duration?
A. November – March inclusive
Q. After Sunwing’s contract what happens when we go back to XL, do we go
back full time or part time?
A After Sunwing the crew concerned will return to the UK and will be full time
for the summer.
Q. Will 100% contracts be guaranteed after that duration?
A. Cannot confirm at this stage, could be 100% for summer then may have to
go to 50% contract again for winter.
Q. Will we have to sign another contract?
A. If an alternative option has been requested and agreed then some form of
confirmation will be produced and will have to be signed by the individual.
Q. When do we leave/return back to XL?
A. November through to 01April, the exact date in November is to be
confirmed
Q. Option 2 - 5 months unpaid leave
Can you take another job or do you have to pay double tax Emergency tax
code?
A. Yes you can take another job. You will be placed on emergency tax and
you would need to claim this back from the tax office once you had
received your P45 from your alternative employer.
Q. When do we leave/return back to XL will there be a chance of calling us
back sooner?
A. November – March for Apr 01 start. Unlikely to be sooner
Q. What happens about my XL company pension?
A. Individuals can continue to contribute, but the employer’s contributions will
cease for that period.
Q. Will I have to sign a new contract when I come back
A. No
Q. Will I keep my current staff number?
A. Yes
Q. Will I go back full time? Is this guaranteed?
A. Yes for summer, as long as the company fleet plan remains the same.
Q. Option 3 - Sunwings contract
Do I have to pay for my uniform/training.
A. No
Q. How long is the training course.
A. Dependant on current qualifications & Transport Canada
Q. What is the Pay/Hours
A. answers below from Sunwing
a) We were looking for 20 crew. We would look at approximately 7 CSM's and 13
F/A's
b) The F/A's are paid $20.00 per flight hour and $30.00 for the CSM's
c) The Cabin Crew are paid per diem at $3.25 per hour while away from the
Canadian home base
d) They are paid a commission for all on board sales.
e) The crew would be operating southern turns, usually back the same day,
however, there may be the occasional out of town layover in Canada
f) The UK crews would probably be all based in Calgary, however, if we do not get
all of our numbers in Toronto, there may be a requirement for crew here
Q. Will I be demoted?
A. The decision will be Sunwing’s together with what positions are available –
they do not have an A/P position
Q. If I left the Sunwings contract before the six months are up does that mean
I have left XL?
A. Yes.
Q. What happens about illness to parents back in the UK. Will XL fly us home?
A. No – this is a Sunwing contract so would need to talk to them
Q. What if someone doesn’t like it?
A. Cases like these will be looked at on an individual basis.
Other:
Q. Can redundancy payouts be made more attractive for voluntary
redundancy to try and reduce compulsory redundancy?
A. The Company is not considering enhanced voluntary redundancy at this
stage.
Q. Compulsory redundancies – Selection for Redundancies – Seniority
A. No, full selection criteria process will be followed
Q. What work is secured for the winter?
A. Programme includes more long flights, very similar to last year & as many
ad-hocs as possible.
Q. There has been mentioned that light aircraft use in Caribbean is too
expensive and will cease? If this is correct, then what are the alternatives
for the company? Will we operate our own long haul programme this
winter?
A. All areas of expenditure are being looked at.
Q. When will 747/767 crew be trained on the 737?
A. During the Winter, from November onwards
Q. How do ex AAE crew fit into the seniority list?
A. There are no such people or list, all crew have been XL since May 06. When
they became XL their service was continuous and their original date of
joining was transferred with them.
Q. Reduction of Base Managers & Trainers/Line Trainers/ Office staff?
A. All are under review as per Peter Owen’s communication
Q. Demotion of newly promoted crew for this winter?
A. All positions are being looked at
Q. Will XL allow voluntary/compulsory made redundant crew reasonable time
off to attend job interviews?
A. Yes
Q. When will winter leave be announced?
A. In approx 10 days time
Q. Are XL UK, France & Germany all one company?
A. All separate companies
Q. What is the state of the company? Crew are concerned about refinancing
of loan that is coming up. What do XL predict for the future?
A. Discussions are ongoing regarding refinancing target date of March. This is
a painful process but puts us in a good position for the future.
Q. Commission deductions have started again. Also there hav been issues of
parts of money going missing from being placed into the safe and arriving
at Alpha. What are the money procedures at Alpha once the safe is
emptied? Any security measures in place, ie cameras or how many people
are dealing with cash?
A. The commission deductions shouldn’t have stopped. Any deductions are
split between Alpha/ XL & Crew, so they don’t have to pay all ‘unders’.
However also get paid ‘overs’.
Action: Company to attach Security aspects and flow charts to go with
minutes.
Suggestions for Possible Savings to be made by:
Using plain rubbish bags, cuttlery packs/sick bags, soaps, napkins and trays
Crew could leave unopened drink bottles on a/c and only uplift as necessary
Line Trainers on Flights observing as an extra crew member. Additional
expenses could pursers incorporate the roles of reporting back
observations?
Snys on long haul flights – unnecessary expenses
Stop & Search policy – Action for Mr XX to come back to us regarding
this
The Company thanked all for their suggestions for savings. These will be
looked at along with all the others.
4. Schedule of meetings
24/09/07 @ 1400 Company to provide responses to options prior to this
meeting
1/10/07 @ 1400
15/10/07 @ 1400
Last edited by Nick22; 15th Oct 2007 at 20:46.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nick 22
I really do think you shouldnt have posted that confidential information on a public forum,im requesting that the moderators remove you from this forum.You seem a very twisted little man who obviously got a attitude against XL, do us a favour mate grow up.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fit for the Future
UNITE/ XL Joint Consultation Meeting – 2 held on Monday 21 September at 1400
in Explorer House.
Present: (In-flight Director)
(Head of Cabin Services)
(Employee Relations Manager)
(UNITE Regional Officer - South)
(UNITE Regional Officer – MAN)
(UNITE Rep)
(UNITE Rep)
1. Consultation Period
Mr XX stated that UNITE would accept that the 90 day consultation
period commenced on the day that UNITE was informed by telephone of
the situation, ie the date stated on the HR1 form – 20 August 2007.
Mr XX introduced Ms XX as the UNITE Regional Officer based in
Manchester and requested that she, along with Mr XX (UNITE Rep
for Manchester were copied in on all documentation).
2. Update from XL
Ms XX provided an update with regard to the process so far, that
the Company as a whole is consolidating structures at present to reduce
costs by 20%, this included the tour operating division. She highlighted the
fact that in terms of communication, a dedicated site has been developed
on the Company intranet which provides the latest information on the Fit
for the Future process. Ms XX explained that the options from the first
communication to Cabin Crew were being set aside and that a pack with
updated proposals for alternatives to compulsory redundancy including
more detail and policies was being sent out to each individual, including a
potentially enhanced VR proposal. The uptake will be fed back to the
consultation group asap.
Mr XX stated that the Q&A document currently on the intranet has
been very helpful and he has no specific questions on the document at this
time.
3. Selection Criteria
The Company explained the criteria that would be used to select individuals
for compulsory redundancy. Mr XX questioned the fact that there
doesn’t appear to be any points awarded for being a Purser or A/P. The
Company explained that it would make no difference if there was as every
Purser and A/P would receive those points because they are being assessed
in separate pools. Any extra points for being a Purser or A/P would be
reflected in the work performance category.
Work Performance Section:
The points awarded for being the “Winner” of sales incentive will be
removed as it was felt that this would discriminate against those who were
part-time and would not have the same ability to become the winner as
those who work full-time.
Negative comments: This area was queried as UNITE felt that it would be
unfair to use this category to deduct points unless each negative comment
was investigated thoroughly. The Company confirmed that all negative
comments are investigated thoroughly and would only be used when
determined that a case exists.
Ms XX stated that the Company is being as objective and conscientious
as possible in making sure that the criteria is completely fair.
Flight Paperwork: UNITE questioned the deduction of points in this
category and sought clarification that this only takes place once the
clarification has been sought and the individual has received feedback. The
Company confirmed that this was the case. Anything that has taken place
recently, where the forms have taken a few days to come through has not
been taken into consideration.
Length of Service: UNITE stated that they would like to take months into
account rather than full years’ service. This may be taken into account if a
number of individuals are on the same points.
Sickness: UNITE queried the fact that having an informal chat would count
for points deduction. The Company explained that the informal chat is to
determine whether or not there is an underlying problem, or particular
mitigating circumstances. When it is determined that there is not it will be
taken into account. If it is determined that there is an underlying problem
or mitigating circumstances, the informal stage will be removed from the
individual’s record and therefore will not be counted.
4. Nokair Contract:
Q: Are these employees safe or part of the pool for selection for
redundancy?
A: In the pot for selection.
Q: Do these employees revert to their original position when the
contract ends?
A: Yes
Q: Is the original grade of employees the one that is used for the
redundancy pool?
A: Yes
Q: Statement – people are thinking that they are safe.
A: The Company has done nothing to encourage this, everyone has
received the letter that was sent to all Cabin Crew stating that their
position is at risk.
5. 7/5 Contract
The Company has offered this contract to reduce the number of
compulsory redundancies that may have to be made. Looking further into
the future it didn’t want to have to go through a similar exercise next year,
therefore the Company wished to offer a permanent option that would
take care of seasonal peaks and troughs. It was felt that offering this
option would reduce the number of compulsory redundancies to approx 80
across both bases. This has also taken into account the number of
resignations which the Company has recently received.
6. General
Q: Why is the Sunwing contract only open to Manchester based
employees?
A: Because the aircraft will be based in Manchester next year. You
may have been made aware of personnel from other bases applying
for Sunwing, these applications are from personnel who are on
temporary contracts with XL, they are not part of the establishment
going forward and have made the approach to Sunwing personally.
Q: If Cabin Crew took the option to take unpaid leave and wished to be
paid over the 12 month period at a pro-rata rate would they be able
to take this option from November?
A: The Company would need to investigate this as there would be a
risk of the person being paid and then not returning to XL, there is
the potential that the Company would not be able to recover the
salaries paid.
7. Further Comments
Leavers – there is an increased number recently.
The ranking order for compulsory redundancy will be made available to
UNITE as soon as it is completed.
As soon as the alternative options come back they will be communicated to
UNITE.
Revised alternatives are to go out to Cabin Crew asap.
Those individuals on maternity leave and long term sick – they are being
communicated with along with all other members of the Cabin Crew
workforce.
The latest options pack is to be highlighted as a replacement to the earlier
options and further to the initial letters.
The Company is to ensure the UNITE Reps are released from
flying/standby duties to attend further meetings.
Mr XX – UNITE Rep in Manchester has not been rostered to attend
some meetings – the Company/UNITE will ensure that he receives all
communications.
The Company is to investigate roster release for one of the LGW UNITE
reps to accompany Denise Barber on a visit to the Manchester base.
Meeting closed.
UNITE/ XL Joint Consultation Meeting – 2 held on Monday 21 September at 1400
in Explorer House.
Present: (In-flight Director)
(Head of Cabin Services)
(Employee Relations Manager)
(UNITE Regional Officer - South)
(UNITE Regional Officer – MAN)
(UNITE Rep)
(UNITE Rep)
1. Consultation Period
Mr XX stated that UNITE would accept that the 90 day consultation
period commenced on the day that UNITE was informed by telephone of
the situation, ie the date stated on the HR1 form – 20 August 2007.
Mr XX introduced Ms XX as the UNITE Regional Officer based in
Manchester and requested that she, along with Mr XX (UNITE Rep
for Manchester were copied in on all documentation).
2. Update from XL
Ms XX provided an update with regard to the process so far, that
the Company as a whole is consolidating structures at present to reduce
costs by 20%, this included the tour operating division. She highlighted the
fact that in terms of communication, a dedicated site has been developed
on the Company intranet which provides the latest information on the Fit
for the Future process. Ms XX explained that the options from the first
communication to Cabin Crew were being set aside and that a pack with
updated proposals for alternatives to compulsory redundancy including
more detail and policies was being sent out to each individual, including a
potentially enhanced VR proposal. The uptake will be fed back to the
consultation group asap.
Mr XX stated that the Q&A document currently on the intranet has
been very helpful and he has no specific questions on the document at this
time.
3. Selection Criteria
The Company explained the criteria that would be used to select individuals
for compulsory redundancy. Mr XX questioned the fact that there
doesn’t appear to be any points awarded for being a Purser or A/P. The
Company explained that it would make no difference if there was as every
Purser and A/P would receive those points because they are being assessed
in separate pools. Any extra points for being a Purser or A/P would be
reflected in the work performance category.
Work Performance Section:
The points awarded for being the “Winner” of sales incentive will be
removed as it was felt that this would discriminate against those who were
part-time and would not have the same ability to become the winner as
those who work full-time.
Negative comments: This area was queried as UNITE felt that it would be
unfair to use this category to deduct points unless each negative comment
was investigated thoroughly. The Company confirmed that all negative
comments are investigated thoroughly and would only be used when
determined that a case exists.
Ms XX stated that the Company is being as objective and conscientious
as possible in making sure that the criteria is completely fair.
Flight Paperwork: UNITE questioned the deduction of points in this
category and sought clarification that this only takes place once the
clarification has been sought and the individual has received feedback. The
Company confirmed that this was the case. Anything that has taken place
recently, where the forms have taken a few days to come through has not
been taken into consideration.
Length of Service: UNITE stated that they would like to take months into
account rather than full years’ service. This may be taken into account if a
number of individuals are on the same points.
Sickness: UNITE queried the fact that having an informal chat would count
for points deduction. The Company explained that the informal chat is to
determine whether or not there is an underlying problem, or particular
mitigating circumstances. When it is determined that there is not it will be
taken into account. If it is determined that there is an underlying problem
or mitigating circumstances, the informal stage will be removed from the
individual’s record and therefore will not be counted.
4. Nokair Contract:
Q: Are these employees safe or part of the pool for selection for
redundancy?
A: In the pot for selection.
Q: Do these employees revert to their original position when the
contract ends?
A: Yes
Q: Is the original grade of employees the one that is used for the
redundancy pool?
A: Yes
Q: Statement – people are thinking that they are safe.
A: The Company has done nothing to encourage this, everyone has
received the letter that was sent to all Cabin Crew stating that their
position is at risk.
5. 7/5 Contract
The Company has offered this contract to reduce the number of
compulsory redundancies that may have to be made. Looking further into
the future it didn’t want to have to go through a similar exercise next year,
therefore the Company wished to offer a permanent option that would
take care of seasonal peaks and troughs. It was felt that offering this
option would reduce the number of compulsory redundancies to approx 80
across both bases. This has also taken into account the number of
resignations which the Company has recently received.
6. General
Q: Why is the Sunwing contract only open to Manchester based
employees?
A: Because the aircraft will be based in Manchester next year. You
may have been made aware of personnel from other bases applying
for Sunwing, these applications are from personnel who are on
temporary contracts with XL, they are not part of the establishment
going forward and have made the approach to Sunwing personally.
Q: If Cabin Crew took the option to take unpaid leave and wished to be
paid over the 12 month period at a pro-rata rate would they be able
to take this option from November?
A: The Company would need to investigate this as there would be a
risk of the person being paid and then not returning to XL, there is
the potential that the Company would not be able to recover the
salaries paid.
7. Further Comments
Leavers – there is an increased number recently.
The ranking order for compulsory redundancy will be made available to
UNITE as soon as it is completed.
As soon as the alternative options come back they will be communicated to
UNITE.
Revised alternatives are to go out to Cabin Crew asap.
Those individuals on maternity leave and long term sick – they are being
communicated with along with all other members of the Cabin Crew
workforce.
The latest options pack is to be highlighted as a replacement to the earlier
options and further to the initial letters.
The Company is to ensure the UNITE Reps are released from
flying/standby duties to attend further meetings.
Mr XX – UNITE Rep in Manchester has not been rostered to attend
some meetings – the Company/UNITE will ensure that he receives all
communications.
The Company is to investigate roster release for one of the LGW UNITE
reps to accompany Denise Barber on a visit to the Manchester base.
Meeting closed.
Last edited by Nick22; 15th Oct 2007 at 20:48.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The information in the memo(s) is, as far as we know, not covered by legislation that prevents it being published externally: There may however, be internal company rules that prohibit publication, and Nick22 may need to be very careful.
As far as PPRuNe goes, we don't remove something (or somebody) just because somebody else doesn't like or want it being posted here.
Now, may we move on, please...
As far as PPRuNe goes, we don't remove something (or somebody) just because somebody else doesn't like or want it being posted here.
Now, may we move on, please...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not wishing to begin a witch hunt here, but it is very obvious that Nick22 has a very strange interpretation of the use and benefits of these websites.
Nick22 - please explain what benefit you believe your posting of internal company memos will have? They are called internal company memos for the reason that they should remain 'internal'.
Naming and quoting management representatives is not big, it's not clever and it is most definitely not dignified - do the right thing Nick22 and remove your posts.
Perhaps if anyone knows exactly who Nick22 is he should be unmasked so that when XL are looking for people to go they don't inadvertently leave him in his job, especially as he obviously dislikes it so very much - that would be unfair on some poor other individual who actually wants to stay.
Nick22 - please explain what benefit you believe your posting of internal company memos will have? They are called internal company memos for the reason that they should remain 'internal'.
Naming and quoting management representatives is not big, it's not clever and it is most definitely not dignified - do the right thing Nick22 and remove your posts.
Perhaps if anyone knows exactly who Nick22 is he should be unmasked so that when XL are looking for people to go they don't inadvertently leave him in his job, especially as he obviously dislikes it so very much - that would be unfair on some poor other individual who actually wants to stay.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: homeless
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moderator,
May I pont out that people are being named in that memo who may not wish to be all over your website as the information was on a secure site not public domain. Or are ther two rules here. Next time someone is is trouble, say a failed opc at virgin or internal problems with anyone here,Ill allegedly name them or maybe publish an asr that might come my way shall I. Lets see how long that lasts.
Come on do the decent thing before some other laundry you may not like surfaces.
May I pont out that people are being named in that memo who may not wish to be all over your website as the information was on a secure site not public domain. Or are ther two rules here. Next time someone is is trouble, say a failed opc at virgin or internal problems with anyone here,Ill allegedly name them or maybe publish an asr that might come my way shall I. Lets see how long that lasts.
Come on do the decent thing before some other laundry you may not like surfaces.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stephen82 - It is not a case of getting over anything, POFC is quite correct, posting internal company memos is one thing but when they contain actual names of people who have made quotes in certain meetings it's opens them to all kinds of potential problems and abuse, something the Moderators seem oblivious to.
Tightslot - If you must leave the memos on the site at least erase the individual names from the memo - I'm sure if you ask them if they have given permission for PPRune to show and quote their comments they may not be best pleased, which may indeed open yourselves to legislation - think about it please.
If this website is so open and people are able to name each other why do people have annonymous nicknames ?
Tightslot - If you must leave the memos on the site at least erase the individual names from the memo - I'm sure if you ask them if they have given permission for PPRune to show and quote their comments they may not be best pleased, which may indeed open yourselves to legislation - think about it please.
If this website is so open and people are able to name each other why do people have annonymous nicknames ?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Gods own country (Wales)
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's time to grow up...
Nick22 you must have the biggest chip on your shoulder! If you are so concerned with the state of the Cabin Service Department at XL then why don't you leave?!
Don't forget though, this industry is awfully small so you don't want a reputation for a trouble maker.....as it will come back to haunt you!
Don't forget though, this industry is awfully small so you don't want a reputation for a trouble maker.....as it will come back to haunt you!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave the guy alone
Maybe Nick should'nt of published documents and memo's on this site but lets not forget the meaning of this forum! its where people can voice an opinion say what they feel and be expressive, so my concerns are that you are all bandwagonning and witch hunting the poor bloke let him have his say and be respective of that! in regards to XL there have been some very under hand tactics by the company which border on threatening behaviour how a company can give there staff options then put at the bottom "should you choose none of the above you are high risk for redundancy" i'm sorry guys if thats not threatening all these poor guys and gals into a decision then i don't not what is! maybe Nick went about his comments slightly wrong but guys and girls come on look at it from the point of view of the XL staff instead of coming here and trying to be judge and jury show compassion!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crawley
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you say, the forums are places to say things and get them out. So why do you worry so much about what people may say to nick22??? If we think he is wrong, we have the same right to give our opinion as he has!!
About XL procedures, if they did not put that remark, probably nobody would have taken other options.
I can only say that for me it worked great, I have got what I asked for, without any meetings. New contract is on the way.
Hopefully Nick22 got what he wanted, leave XL
About XL procedures, if they did not put that remark, probably nobody would have taken other options.
I can only say that for me it worked great, I have got what I asked for, without any meetings. New contract is on the way.
Hopefully Nick22 got what he wanted, leave XL
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Crawley
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tightslot - If you must leave the memos on the site at least erase the individual names from the memo - I'm sure if you ask them if they have given permission for PPRune to show and quote their comments they may not be best pleased, which may indeed open yourselves to legislation - think about it please.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: homeless
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
paul01942,
Typical end result of galley fm.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the options and proceedures available.
I'll make it clear. Everyone is assessed via a points system. X amount will be sucessful and fill the available slots. That is when the choices come into effect.
Therefore if you are not sucessful your choices will be applied. If you chose none of the above three choices you gave yourself two options. Be sucessful or get made redundant. The whole form was not a chop threat but a statement of preference as to what you would prefer if not sucessful. I hope I have repeated myself enough for you to understand.
Whilst harsh it is not threatening behaviour just proceedure and your inability to understand the form.I would imagine heavily influenced by galley fm and barrack room lawyers both of which , despite their huge influence, hold very little merit.
Good luck to those today who find themslves in an uncertain position.
A few more messages of support and less xl slagging would help.
Typical end result of galley fm.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the options and proceedures available.
I'll make it clear. Everyone is assessed via a points system. X amount will be sucessful and fill the available slots. That is when the choices come into effect.
Therefore if you are not sucessful your choices will be applied. If you chose none of the above three choices you gave yourself two options. Be sucessful or get made redundant. The whole form was not a chop threat but a statement of preference as to what you would prefer if not sucessful. I hope I have repeated myself enough for you to understand.
Whilst harsh it is not threatening behaviour just proceedure and your inability to understand the form.I would imagine heavily influenced by galley fm and barrack room lawyers both of which , despite their huge influence, hold very little merit.
Good luck to those today who find themslves in an uncertain position.
A few more messages of support and less xl slagging would help.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: north west
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what about us that haven't either had a congratulations email (that got sent over 24 hrs ago) or been asked to attend a meeting? i've taken it as that after being with the company five years i'm being offered neither, gutted they haven't had the decency or common curtesey to let us know.
and yes i did tick none of the above as did 90% of people i spoke did but it shouldn't been i'm worth any less.
truely gutted that i'm facing a stony silence as if my fates been sealed so just forget about us.
THE WAY THEY DO THINGS AND THEIR COMMUNICATION STINKS !!!!
and yes i did tick none of the above as did 90% of people i spoke did but it shouldn't been i'm worth any less.
truely gutted that i'm facing a stony silence as if my fates been sealed so just forget about us.
THE WAY THEY DO THINGS AND THEIR COMMUNICATION STINKS !!!!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To peterowensfanclub: Believe me I do fully understand how a proceadure work's I don't work for XL nor would I want to as I have been actively involved in consultaions before and this has to be the worse process i have ever seen, how can a company send e-mails to the chosen few knowing they would tell the others whats happened? How can a company grade people on a point system? it should go on Attendance, Lateness, Disaplinaries, Absence, Non-contactables, etc now hearing some of the crew's in manchester talking today that have unfortunatley been told that they have to accept either 7/5 option or redundancy you class that as acceptable?
Points have been issued based on thank you letters from passengers give me a break mate! the guys and girls work very hard on the flights so there performance should not be graded on wheather some passenger has named them personally don't be so ridiculas!!!
Law states that when the age-ism ruling administered 2 years ago you have to take into account what i mentioned above not other stupid factors
Points have been issued based on thank you letters from passengers give me a break mate! the guys and girls work very hard on the flights so there performance should not be graded on wheather some passenger has named them personally don't be so ridiculas!!!
Law states that when the age-ism ruling administered 2 years ago you have to take into account what i mentioned above not other stupid factors