Virgin Blue EBA
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Virgin Blue's new Boeing 737-800 aircraft will be typically configured with a one class 177-180 seat layout, with ability to increase seat capacity by over 5% up to a 189 seat configuration and deploy these aircraft on price sensitive or leisure routes.
I imagine the leisure routes they are talking about would be OOL. Say 9x$200 is an extra $1800 which would help contribute to our new staff bonus scheme.
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Wirgin Blew my sarcasm detector is coming up with an inconclusive result to your last post re the $1800 making a good contribution to the staff bonus scheme - I am hoping its U/S, and you were being quite sarcastic! lol
Interesting to note too, the 81% increase in 6 month NET profit figures to over $124 Million - should I look forward to seeing some of that in our EBA which I believe is due to arrive in our mailboxes within the next week?
Interesting to note too, the 81% increase in 6 month NET profit figures to over $124 Million - should I look forward to seeing some of that in our EBA which I believe is due to arrive in our mailboxes within the next week?
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You have to have a little at the moment. There is such a lot of things going on at the moment at HQ -
- TC EBA
- CC EBA
- Live to Air rollout
- Embraer Operation
- Longhaul Operation
- SYD SH Base???
- SYD LH Base???
- LCC Operation
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Crew Comp/resigning
Hi Resboy, the new Ratio is indeed 1:50 and that is the reasoning for 4 crew on our 800's, BUT the requirement is still that there is one crew member per "Door" on the aircraft. Hence the 700 series still has 4 crew as well !!!
It's easy for the information to get mudled as I personally haven't yet seen an official document laying out the change come out from CASA, they indicated that they would be sending out a summary of info sheet to all Cabin Crew registered in Australia to ensure that the new requirements are communicated directly to us and not through company channels. Seems they don't totally trust the airlines to give untainted statements, suprisingly (Sinala, for you broken sarcasm meter, that one was dripping!)
Wirgin blew, "the gos" from a Mel Mgmnt member is that Jan/Feb resignations were sginificantly lower than anticipated,(probably with everyone getting there christmas credit card bill!). Someone I work with and is a mate at a 2nd job of mine is a CSM for J* and has just done a half day course on the changes for the reduced crew ops on A320. So they are following suit.
Sinala1, have a chat to ops about Emb trg, one of them told me last night that the reason so many of us are sitting on our hands on AVL/APT is changes being made to prepare for taking crew off line from APR to start the trg. Going to be too, only five months to train us all before the first two come on line!
I know there are probs at VB but it is still an exciting time for us, I see they are calling for more crew again, internal / external. And BG did confirm at SYD to crew there that we would have first dibs on any international jobs. He said they are trying to work out a secondment system too, so you can do perhaps 6month long haul / 6 month domestic or similar. Great for those who want variety.
Does anyone else think like me? that we will be loosing that extra leg room in the 1DEF seats? nine more sounds like it will be a tight squeeze. At least it might stop people squeezing out and taking over the aisle on those holiday/leisure routes. They will need a shoe horn to get out of their seat.
It's easy for the information to get mudled as I personally haven't yet seen an official document laying out the change come out from CASA, they indicated that they would be sending out a summary of info sheet to all Cabin Crew registered in Australia to ensure that the new requirements are communicated directly to us and not through company channels. Seems they don't totally trust the airlines to give untainted statements, suprisingly (Sinala, for you broken sarcasm meter, that one was dripping!)
Wirgin blew, "the gos" from a Mel Mgmnt member is that Jan/Feb resignations were sginificantly lower than anticipated,(probably with everyone getting there christmas credit card bill!). Someone I work with and is a mate at a 2nd job of mine is a CSM for J* and has just done a half day course on the changes for the reduced crew ops on A320. So they are following suit.
Sinala1, have a chat to ops about Emb trg, one of them told me last night that the reason so many of us are sitting on our hands on AVL/APT is changes being made to prepare for taking crew off line from APR to start the trg. Going to be too, only five months to train us all before the first two come on line!
I know there are probs at VB but it is still an exciting time for us, I see they are calling for more crew again, internal / external. And BG did confirm at SYD to crew there that we would have first dibs on any international jobs. He said they are trying to work out a secondment system too, so you can do perhaps 6month long haul / 6 month domestic or similar. Great for those who want variety.
Does anyone else think like me? that we will be loosing that extra leg room in the 1DEF seats? nine more sounds like it will be a tight squeeze. At least it might stop people squeezing out and taking over the aisle on those holiday/leisure routes. They will need a shoe horn to get out of their seat.
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Milbud :
Not sure if you have seen this link to the CASA exemption, I have posted below. Interesting it also refers to the 800 having a maximum number of seats of 189. Yes I think you will need a shoe horn to get out of your seat with the ridiculous seat pitch, not sure if VB's management actually fly that often in a seat other than blue zone where most of the guests sit, the whole Virgin Blue experience is going to get a whole lot more uncomfortable (if thats possible). I know Mr Godfrey has repeatedly stated there is no case for business class seating, but a lot of guests who travel on busines with VB have stated they would be happy to pay an extra $300 or $400 to travel and work in comfort. But who am I to argue, I just talk to lots of business people who travel with VB everyday.
http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf
Not sure if you have seen this link to the CASA exemption, I have posted below. Interesting it also refers to the 800 having a maximum number of seats of 189. Yes I think you will need a shoe horn to get out of your seat with the ridiculous seat pitch, not sure if VB's management actually fly that often in a seat other than blue zone where most of the guests sit, the whole Virgin Blue experience is going to get a whole lot more uncomfortable (if thats possible). I know Mr Godfrey has repeatedly stated there is no case for business class seating, but a lot of guests who travel on busines with VB have stated they would be happy to pay an extra $300 or $400 to travel and work in comfort. But who am I to argue, I just talk to lots of business people who travel with VB everyday.
http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf
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Milbud mate I am going to disagree with you re the change of the pax ratio from 1:36 to 1:50 - that has not yet happened, we can only operate the B738 with 4 crew due to the exemption CASA granted us - and that exemption refers only to the B737-800 series aircraft.
As far as the 189 pax goes, I predict it will mean removing one toilet from the rear
because 9 extra pax is a row and a half...
Lets not forget the 5% extra on top of that for infants too - I think with a full pax load it will mean a limit of 9 infants (if I recall correctly) - 198 pax on a 737 with 4 crew
Interesting re the EMB training! Although I would have thought that until the Tech Crew EBA is signed off, the implementation of the EMB is going to be somewhat delayed - unless it is decided sooner rather than later that the EMB flying will go to a separate company employing pilots on AWA's?
The announcement of the B777 is a great thing (although I wont full believe it until the order is signed - Airbus may still yet come in with an offer to undercut Boeing) and a good step forward for the International project. Secondment would be great for those who do want a variation of flying - although me personally its going to be full time all the way! The big question is though - what will the terms and conditions of international flying be? Please please please don't let them be a step down $$ and lifestyle (although I do know from experience long haul is a totally different lifestyle to short haul) wise from what we have now - that would be soul destroying
Any ideas on when the EBA is going to be delivered? Would have to be any day now I would imagine?
As far as the 189 pax goes, I predict it will mean removing one toilet from the rear
because 9 extra pax is a row and a half...Lets not forget the 5% extra on top of that for infants too - I think with a full pax load it will mean a limit of 9 infants (if I recall correctly) - 198 pax on a 737 with 4 crew
Interesting re the EMB training! Although I would have thought that until the Tech Crew EBA is signed off, the implementation of the EMB is going to be somewhat delayed - unless it is decided sooner rather than later that the EMB flying will go to a separate company employing pilots on AWA's?
The announcement of the B777 is a great thing (although I wont full believe it until the order is signed - Airbus may still yet come in with an offer to undercut Boeing) and a good step forward for the International project. Secondment would be great for those who do want a variation of flying - although me personally its going to be full time all the way! The big question is though - what will the terms and conditions of international flying be? Please please please don't let them be a step down $$ and lifestyle (although I do know from experience long haul is a totally different lifestyle to short haul) wise from what we have now - that would be soul destroying
Any ideas on when the EBA is going to be delivered? Would have to be any day now I would imagine?
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Thanks for that link 320
Very interesting and I think it answers my question...
"Schedule 1 Aircraft
Australian registered Boeing 737-800 series with a type data certificate that provides for a maximum seating capacity of 189."
the document then goes on to say ...
"Direction
The operator may operate an aircraft mentioned in schedule 1 with 4 cabin attendants"
So an aircraft with 189 seats which under normal CASA regulations would have 6 flight attendants can operate with 4
Very interesting and I think it answers my question...
"Schedule 1 Aircraft
Australian registered Boeing 737-800 series with a type data certificate that provides for a maximum seating capacity of 189."
the document then goes on to say ...
"Direction
The operator may operate an aircraft mentioned in schedule 1 with 4 cabin attendants"
So an aircraft with 189 seats which under normal CASA regulations would have 6 flight attendants can operate with 4
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Heya Sinala1, can see where my last post was a tad 'ambiguous' in the first line. I should have written that the proposed new ratio, understanding that the current ops at DJ are an exemption. When I spoke with Richard, I believe surname Talbot? at the last aviation safety seminar I attended, he stated that the new ratio would still require 1 per door on aircraft with a seating capacity over XXX. The number of seats escapes me. 136 came to mind! but that could be a furphy of my ageing memory
He stressed that this was a clear difference between our move to 1:50 in Aus as compared to NZ.
I too was amazed at the nearness of EMB trg, again as you say with the 'up in the air' nature of the Tech crew EBA.
Resboy, the reference to 189 is indeed of note. It will be interesting to see though if they do keep the 'extra' seating to the purely leisure routes. This would seemingly preclude the sardine'ing of MEL-SYD sectors.
I'm not sure that I agree with the idea of business seating...so many people say they make the move, or are made to move to DJ because companies are trying to cut the bottom line. However, there was a time that there would Never be a lounge or rewards program too! I never say never any more at DJ.
As for the future Sinala with 777's crew etc... like you, I will wait until i'm on it to be sure of anything!
No sign of my EBA yet matey, I just hope I get long enough to study it carefully and ask vast numbers of questions before having to vote on it.
He stressed that this was a clear difference between our move to 1:50 in Aus as compared to NZ.I too was amazed at the nearness of EMB trg, again as you say with the 'up in the air' nature of the Tech crew EBA.
Resboy, the reference to 189 is indeed of note. It will be interesting to see though if they do keep the 'extra' seating to the purely leisure routes. This would seemingly preclude the sardine'ing of MEL-SYD sectors.
I'm not sure that I agree with the idea of business seating...so many people say they make the move, or are made to move to DJ because companies are trying to cut the bottom line. However, there was a time that there would Never be a lounge or rewards program too! I never say never any more at DJ.
As for the future Sinala with 777's crew etc... like you, I will wait until i'm on it to be sure of anything!
No sign of my EBA yet matey, I just hope I get long enough to study it carefully and ask vast numbers of questions before having to vote on it.
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Exciting times ahead with new EBAs, International etc...
Totally off the topic, does anyone know why most other airlines in the world get ID90s on most of the world's airlines, whereas at Virgin Blue we only get a few?
And I don't mean 'only' in an ungrateful way, because I think as far as domestic goes our benefits are very generous. But wouldn't it be nice to have a choice of all different airlines....
Any thoughts folks?
Totally off the topic, does anyone know why most other airlines in the world get ID90s on most of the world's airlines, whereas at Virgin Blue we only get a few?
And I don't mean 'only' in an ungrateful way, because I think as far as domestic goes our benefits are very generous. But wouldn't it be nice to have a choice of all different airlines....
Any thoughts folks?
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Crewbus: Its something to do with an association we are not part of - I think its IATA. If we were an IATA airline, we would issue & accept paper tickets, as well as ZED (zonal employee discount) fares for staff.
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I wonder if the airline would consider joining IATA?
Considering we have association with different international carriers, I'm sure the airline would qualify.
Of course I am sure there is more to it than that
By the way, our staff travel department do a fantastic job
Considering we have association with different international carriers, I'm sure the airline would qualify.
Of course I am sure there is more to it than that
By the way, our staff travel department do a fantastic job
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EBA Update
01 Mar 07 EBA Package posted to Cabin Crew member’s homes
02 Mar 07 EBA Package available on Virgin Blue intranet and FAAA internet website
12-19 Mar 07 Roadshows - Group Sessions (see timetable below)
18-25 Mar 07 Crew Room Briefings - Small Groups & Individual Sessions - 7am to 7pm
21 Mar 07 Vote Opens
30 Mar 07 Vote Closes
ROADSHOW TIMETABLE
MELBOURNE Training Rooms 1 & 2 - Level 2
Date: Monday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
12 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Tuesday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
13 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
BRISBANE Albion Room - Level 1
Date: Thursday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
15 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Friday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
16 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
SYDNEY Holiday Inn - Potts Point
Date: Monday Session Time: 1800 to 2030
19 Mar 07
---
Bring it on
02 Mar 07 EBA Package available on Virgin Blue intranet and FAAA internet website
12-19 Mar 07 Roadshows - Group Sessions (see timetable below)
18-25 Mar 07 Crew Room Briefings - Small Groups & Individual Sessions - 7am to 7pm
21 Mar 07 Vote Opens
30 Mar 07 Vote Closes
ROADSHOW TIMETABLE
MELBOURNE Training Rooms 1 & 2 - Level 2
Date: Monday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
12 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Tuesday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
13 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
BRISBANE Albion Room - Level 1
Date: Thursday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
15 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Friday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
16 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
SYDNEY Holiday Inn - Potts Point
Date: Monday Session Time: 1800 to 2030
19 Mar 07
---
Bring it on
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EBA
I know we don't have concrete info for a few days, however let's get the ball rolling with some fairly firm rumour mill stuff.......
All well and good to do a 12 hour day if you are paxing a sector (as we do now) or it's ONE sector (ie Long Haul) HOWEVER, no matter what the company says about extra days off (because believe me - you won't be able to basically write your own roster), I for one, do NOT want to operate 12 hours - 5 sector days, BNE-DRW returns - operating all the way etc etc. Just think about operating another few hours when you sign off on a 9 hr 45 day in the next few weeks - aaahh!!
Last EBA, the company added only 15mins to our operating duty time (9 hrs 30 mins became 9 hrs 45 mins) and that allowed an extra sector to be added on - let's not fall into this trap again!! The extra hours could easily see crew operate back to home base - less overnights - no thanks.
The overtime issue will be interesting to see....let's fight to keep our daily rate (ie. if you work over 9 hrs you are entitled to it) I mean, what other job don't you earn a daily rate of overtime in?? Think about it guys, when are we EVER rostered over 140 hrs a month?? So bye, bye overtime......If it comes out on the new EBA as a huge hourly rate (apparently $50ish) don't be fooled by the big bucks - I like my quite substantial daily overtime rate now.....
Will be interesting to see what becomes of our Avail days - they are quite a nice money spinner also - we don't want to lose them as they are now!
Have heard that Ad-Hoc Instructors will actually earn less for certain patterns of days they train - how rediculous. This may only apply to a small percentage but don't forget if that is a position you would like to be in the future, you need to fight for better conditions in that area now!
Clearly, the company will try and sell this on a number of levels - part time being a big one that many crew will have tunnel vision viewing on.
Management must have room to move on this - let's say NO and negotiate on the stuff we don't like - hopefully enough crew won't just hear one side and say yes to it.
Interesting to see what out pilot mates said about theirs.........
Thoughts guys??
BVB
All well and good to do a 12 hour day if you are paxing a sector (as we do now) or it's ONE sector (ie Long Haul) HOWEVER, no matter what the company says about extra days off (because believe me - you won't be able to basically write your own roster), I for one, do NOT want to operate 12 hours - 5 sector days, BNE-DRW returns - operating all the way etc etc. Just think about operating another few hours when you sign off on a 9 hr 45 day in the next few weeks - aaahh!!
Last EBA, the company added only 15mins to our operating duty time (9 hrs 30 mins became 9 hrs 45 mins) and that allowed an extra sector to be added on - let's not fall into this trap again!! The extra hours could easily see crew operate back to home base - less overnights - no thanks.
The overtime issue will be interesting to see....let's fight to keep our daily rate (ie. if you work over 9 hrs you are entitled to it) I mean, what other job don't you earn a daily rate of overtime in?? Think about it guys, when are we EVER rostered over 140 hrs a month?? So bye, bye overtime......If it comes out on the new EBA as a huge hourly rate (apparently $50ish) don't be fooled by the big bucks - I like my quite substantial daily overtime rate now.....
Will be interesting to see what becomes of our Avail days - they are quite a nice money spinner also - we don't want to lose them as they are now!
Have heard that Ad-Hoc Instructors will actually earn less for certain patterns of days they train - how rediculous. This may only apply to a small percentage but don't forget if that is a position you would like to be in the future, you need to fight for better conditions in that area now!
Clearly, the company will try and sell this on a number of levels - part time being a big one that many crew will have tunnel vision viewing on.
Management must have room to move on this - let's say NO and negotiate on the stuff we don't like - hopefully enough crew won't just hear one side and say yes to it.
Interesting to see what out pilot mates said about theirs.........
Thoughts guys??
BVB
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I currently work 12 hour days. I am physically unable to walk at the end of it, they are so exhasting. You find yourself sleeping and working and that's it. Please NEVER accept anything that requires 12 hours, it's simply not worth it.
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I don't want to say too much until I actually read the document and fully understand it, but based on the stuff presented at the forums etc 12 hour day trips are a possibility. 4 sector BNE-MEL anyone?
With the reduction of crew on the -800 saving over $20 Million over the life of the agreement; the increase of seats on some -800s to 189 (and still operating at only 4 crew - even though, as mentioned above, the standard CASA requirement would have been for 6); the reduction of overnights; and the decrease in overnight payments, hotel costs and transport costs - there is going to want to be a lot of give to counter all the take!
A serious question I pose is WHY is it necessary to brand the document in glossy images and paper/color scheme etc, and include a dvd as well - surely that $$ could be much better spent (for eg put into the salary kitty, or put towards giving us a newer more professional uniform!). The document should sell itself, it shouldnt need a sales campaign. Did you see the tech crew EBA coming out with any of this kind of stuff?
With the reduction of crew on the -800 saving over $20 Million over the life of the agreement; the increase of seats on some -800s to 189 (and still operating at only 4 crew - even though, as mentioned above, the standard CASA requirement would have been for 6); the reduction of overnights; and the decrease in overnight payments, hotel costs and transport costs - there is going to want to be a lot of give to counter all the take!
A serious question I pose is WHY is it necessary to brand the document in glossy images and paper/color scheme etc, and include a dvd as well - surely that $$ could be much better spent (for eg put into the salary kitty, or put towards giving us a newer more professional uniform!). The document should sell itself, it shouldnt need a sales campaign. Did you see the tech crew EBA coming out with any of this kind of stuff?
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I can't imagine anyone wanting to do 12 hour days.
I believe that companies like to first present the 'harshest' situation in the first draft of an EBA. After all, it is about negotiating. I would never vote yes to the first offer thrown at me, no matter how fair and reasonable it may seem. Because I know that if it gets rejected, they will then come back with a better offer ie. reduce the hours required before we get paid overtime, reduce the maximum hours per day, increase pay just a little bit more... Get my drift?
I believe that companies like to first present the 'harshest' situation in the first draft of an EBA. After all, it is about negotiating. I would never vote yes to the first offer thrown at me, no matter how fair and reasonable it may seem. Because I know that if it gets rejected, they will then come back with a better offer ie. reduce the hours required before we get paid overtime, reduce the maximum hours per day, increase pay just a little bit more... Get my drift?
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Erm.... GalleyFM is saying that there is NO negotiating.... there will only be this one EBA.... if we vote NO we stay on the current one.... But hey... that is only GALLEY FM!!! And SO many rumours are flying around at the moment (pardon the pun).
I predict interesting times ahead with this EBA stuff.... especially as it was announced on the news that Virgin pilots are considering strike action!
Got the funniest text from someone today..... GalleyFM (again) is that Virgin has offered Lisa Roberston a job!! (QF mile-high flighty)
That would certainly put a new spin on the saying "if only you got Virgin Blue service everywhere". Haha.
I predict interesting times ahead with this EBA stuff.... especially as it was announced on the news that Virgin pilots are considering strike action!
Got the funniest text from someone today..... GalleyFM (again) is that Virgin has offered Lisa Roberston a job!! (QF mile-high flighty)
That would certainly put a new spin on the saying "if only you got Virgin Blue service everywhere". Haha.
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Galley FM, where would we be without it?
Of course management are trying to put out the 'take this because it wont get any better' They know they are putting out an EBA that is more in their favour than ours. I think it would be silly to vote yes to the first thing offered. But that is my thought and everyone is entitled to decide on what would be best for them.
My theory is, if it gets rejected, they can either 1) keep us on the current one we have, which gives us many overnights and available days which is a nice little added extra in our pay, or 2) listen and negotiate with us on the one they are sending out this week.
I for one am looking forward to a little light reading later on in the week
Of course management are trying to put out the 'take this because it wont get any better' They know they are putting out an EBA that is more in their favour than ours. I think it would be silly to vote yes to the first thing offered. But that is my thought and everyone is entitled to decide on what would be best for them.
My theory is, if it gets rejected, they can either 1) keep us on the current one we have, which gives us many overnights and available days which is a nice little added extra in our pay, or 2) listen and negotiate with us on the one they are sending out this week.
I for one am looking forward to a little light reading later on in the week