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little sweetner for the lhr base
get ready for those "short sectors" with no overtime
Reality for Non-Stop 'Kangaroo Route' Dream 777 Versus A340
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April 3, 2006 Boeing and Airbus are locked in talks with Qantas in an attempt to revive the dream of non-stop flights between London and Sydney.
The manufacturere were told to come up with a configuration that would make a 19-hour non-stop London to Sydney flight, known as the 'Kangaroo Route,' commercially viable. The Boeing 777, also known as the "Worldliner" has a 10,817 range. In theory it could make the 10,562 mile journey to Sydney with its full complement of 301 passengers.
But headwinds on the return 21-hour journey from Sydney to London make a non-stop journey impossible unless seats possibly as many as 100 were stripped out to allow space for extra fuel tanks. Boeing could increase the proportion of carbon fiber composite in the 777 from its current 12 per cent, to make the plane lighter. But indications are that the cost of doing this would be prohibitive.
Reality for Non-Stop 'Kangaroo Route' Dream 777 Versus A340
Printer Friendly
April 3, 2006 Boeing and Airbus are locked in talks with Qantas in an attempt to revive the dream of non-stop flights between London and Sydney.
The manufacturere were told to come up with a configuration that would make a 19-hour non-stop London to Sydney flight, known as the 'Kangaroo Route,' commercially viable. The Boeing 777, also known as the "Worldliner" has a 10,817 range. In theory it could make the 10,562 mile journey to Sydney with its full complement of 301 passengers.
But headwinds on the return 21-hour journey from Sydney to London make a non-stop journey impossible unless seats possibly as many as 100 were stripped out to allow space for extra fuel tanks. Boeing could increase the proportion of carbon fiber composite in the 777 from its current 12 per cent, to make the plane lighter. But indications are that the cost of doing this would be prohibitive.
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Cart elevator…
So if you get rid of the seniority system you don’t care about the senior crew, no wonder they don’t care much for you!!!
At least with the current system you get something but if we get a totally allocated system you get no absolutely no input into your roster….
Your willing to do that just to get rid of the senior crew and the senior crew leave and you become one of that ugly group and the junior crew will have a shot at you…what will you do the when they get rid of the seniority based holiday bid system and the company allocates holidays at random...BRILLIANT
If you are not going to stay long enough in the job why ruin it for everyone else ,some of us actually like the idea of having some say in where we go…
Ahhh the “ME” generation and it's attitude to the rest of the world
So if you get rid of the seniority system you don’t care about the senior crew, no wonder they don’t care much for you!!!
At least with the current system you get something but if we get a totally allocated system you get no absolutely no input into your roster….
Your willing to do that just to get rid of the senior crew and the senior crew leave and you become one of that ugly group and the junior crew will have a shot at you…what will you do the when they get rid of the seniority based holiday bid system and the company allocates holidays at random...BRILLIANT
If you are not going to stay long enough in the job why ruin it for everyone else ,some of us actually like the idea of having some say in where we go…
Ahhh the “ME” generation and it's attitude to the rest of the world
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lowerlobe ... would you not think that it should be the seniors who should give a toss about the juniors? they have been there a long time, never had to deal with seniority bidding when they started, and after it happened were boosted by constant recruitment. Oh and the other major factor - there are more juniors than seniors 
they are the ones who will lose everything when the seniority bid system goes ! I have nothing to lose, I get nothing to start with!
You think no say in my roster would annoy me? I HAVE NO SAY already! All I can gain is some variation in my work - who cares what variation it is, my last SYD roster consisted of nothing but JNB trips!
Many-a-suggestion has been put forward, capping trips etc. The seniors ( including those running the FAAA) will not hear anything about it.
So they will lose it.
Do I care when my annual leave is? No ( as long as I get it!). As long as I get the same trips/pay/benefits as everyone else doing my job, I will be happy.
Why should seniors get better trips/ pay etc for doing the exact same job as any other crew member?
All longhaul f/a's should get the same trips ( and therefore pay) as each other. You cant argue with logic. Seniority might have been acceptable in the 80's, but it aint now - the industry has changed too much.
You talk about the 'ME' generation? what the? hello, ever seen a senior give a HNL away to a junior for a JNB just to be 'caring and sharing'? The 'ME' people are the seniors who will give up nothing (even though they never had to suffer being junior to start with!)
I Have a feeling it will all be academic soon anyways.
Go you good guys fighting the case in court
they are the ones who will lose everything when the seniority bid system goes ! I have nothing to lose, I get nothing to start with!
You think no say in my roster would annoy me? I HAVE NO SAY already! All I can gain is some variation in my work - who cares what variation it is, my last SYD roster consisted of nothing but JNB trips!
Many-a-suggestion has been put forward, capping trips etc. The seniors ( including those running the FAAA) will not hear anything about it.
So they will lose it.
Do I care when my annual leave is? No ( as long as I get it!). As long as I get the same trips/pay/benefits as everyone else doing my job, I will be happy.
Why should seniors get better trips/ pay etc for doing the exact same job as any other crew member?
All longhaul f/a's should get the same trips ( and therefore pay) as each other. You cant argue with logic. Seniority might have been acceptable in the 80's, but it aint now - the industry has changed too much.
You talk about the 'ME' generation? what the? hello, ever seen a senior give a HNL away to a junior for a JNB just to be 'caring and sharing'? The 'ME' people are the seniors who will give up nothing (even though they never had to suffer being junior to start with!)
I Have a feeling it will all be academic soon anyways.
Go you good guys fighting the case in court
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Or maybe a company plant who wants nothing more than to dismantle the system and have a 100% company controlled enviroment .......
You did not answer my question..
"what gives you the right to take away others say in their rosters even if it is only some control"???...
In other words what gives you the right to take away something from the majority and give the company 100% control ..unless of course you are another company plant as I believe the other two crew taking this issue to court are ................
You did not answer my question..
"what gives you the right to take away others say in their rosters even if it is only some control"???...
In other words what gives you the right to take away something from the majority and give the company 100% control ..unless of course you are another company plant as I believe the other two crew taking this issue to court are ................
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The longHaul FAAA cannot put out a newsletter regarding this?
Would it be too much to hope for some communication from them?
Would it be too much to hope for some communication from them?
So far we know bugger all! So consequently the rumours will get out there.
Is it about seniority? Dunno. Maybe?!
I guess watch this space.
Sad when you learn more off a gossip site than from the company OR the union in which you pay good money for.
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Some times its difficult to put out information on a matter that is essentially sub judice. Having said that i think from what i hear the commission heard about 8 hours of complex legal arguements on points of law from barristers about carers provisions and discrimination...
I guess once the matter is concluded there will be detailed information available i did call the FAAA today and ask for some info and i think a newsletter is on the way from the international Division
I guess once the matter is concluded there will be detailed information available i did call the FAAA today and ask for some info and i think a newsletter is on the way from the international Division
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dis...........................Engagement -Take 2
Apologies for offending the morals of the Moderator in my last post-but I did get a bit carried away, 'cause I am so incensed with the lack of LEADERSHIP shown by this current regime.
The question I posed yesterday re: the latest Engagement Surveys was:
WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE THE LAST SURVEY ????????????
.................i'll tell you =ZIP.
Just ask any L/H crewmember. Just reflect on this:
* LSL direction ad nauseum.
*Being treated with utter contempt by the Team Managers.
*Being abused and vilified by disgruntled pax.....why ? , no IFE, no meal choice, runnning out of meals/splits., toilets overflowing/blocked, constant delays.
*Harrassment whilst taking sick leave entitlements.
* Bone of contention Hotel....all for cost savings.
*LAX-JFK-LAX shuttle-inhumane.
* Loading up our flying with Kiwi and Thai based crews'.
* regional Flying Agreement.
* Automatic entry to BFA category for S/H and Kiwi crew !!!!
* see thru Briefing rooms.
*An abomination of the "new" out of the Twilight Zone product???
I could go on and on.................but for fear of being booted off this forum for the second time -I'll refrain !!!!.
My question last night was :
Last time the Engagement Score came in at about 25 %.
Where do you think this one will come in ??????????????????
My prediction is 8%.
The winner will get- a dinner for 2 with the Black Widow or Tarantula at Chez Noire!!
The question I posed yesterday re: the latest Engagement Surveys was:
WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE THE LAST SURVEY ????????????
.................i'll tell you =ZIP.
Just ask any L/H crewmember. Just reflect on this:
* LSL direction ad nauseum.
*Being treated with utter contempt by the Team Managers.
*Being abused and vilified by disgruntled pax.....why ? , no IFE, no meal choice, runnning out of meals/splits., toilets overflowing/blocked, constant delays.
*Harrassment whilst taking sick leave entitlements.
* Bone of contention Hotel....all for cost savings.
*LAX-JFK-LAX shuttle-inhumane.
* Loading up our flying with Kiwi and Thai based crews'.
* regional Flying Agreement.
* Automatic entry to BFA category for S/H and Kiwi crew !!!!
* see thru Briefing rooms.
*An abomination of the "new" out of the Twilight Zone product???
I could go on and on.................but for fear of being booted off this forum for the second time -I'll refrain !!!!.
My question last night was :
Last time the Engagement Score came in at about 25 %.
Where do you think this one will come in ??????????????????
My prediction is 8%.
The winner will get- a dinner for 2 with the Black Widow or Tarantula at Chez Noire!!
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Sydney S/H,
Only if you transfered to Auckland.
The only requirement over there is, "cheap".
WWW,
whatever it is is will be surely be UNDER the level measured last time around.
The irony is that those Cabin Crew who VOLUNTEERED to assist with the issues around "engagement" are so pissed off with the whole bull**** process tha even they have now joined the fold of the officially DISENGAGED.
Have a talk to some of them.
Dysfunctional doesn't even come close to describing the circus that this airline has become.
Only if you transfered to Auckland.
The only requirement over there is, "cheap".
WWW,
whatever it is is will be surely be UNDER the level measured last time around.
The irony is that those Cabin Crew who VOLUNTEERED to assist with the issues around "engagement" are so pissed off with the whole bull**** process tha even they have now joined the fold of the officially DISENGAGED.
Have a talk to some of them.
Dysfunctional doesn't even come close to describing the circus that this airline has become.
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I heard Speedbird about this farce as well.
I also spoke to some one on the ENGAGEMENT TEAM-( HA! ).
He said he raised a number of "issues" and was brow beaten and "belittled" for "BEING TOO CYNICAL !!!!!"-quote from one of the Team leaders.
What a F---kin joke. First they are invited to join the team. Then if you speak out or give opionions as to what shouldchange for engagement to happen, they tell you you're cynical. !!!!!!!
OK thats it -................my prediction ( on Engagemnet score ) just dropped from 8%-5% all in one night.
www
I also spoke to some one on the ENGAGEMENT TEAM-( HA! ).
He said he raised a number of "issues" and was brow beaten and "belittled" for "BEING TOO CYNICAL !!!!!"-quote from one of the Team leaders.
What a F---kin joke. First they are invited to join the team. Then if you speak out or give opionions as to what shouldchange for engagement to happen, they tell you you're cynical. !!!!!!!
OK thats it -................my prediction ( on Engagemnet score ) just dropped from 8%-5% all in one night.
www
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faaa information or lack of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pegasus,
As far as a newsletter is concerned you dont have to prejudice the court case by discussing specifics but just a generalised letter telling us
1: Whether there is a court case or not
2: If this is a matter based on seniority or some other issue.
We really should not have to ask for information from the faaa ,this was reportedly started more than a fortnight ago.
As far as a newsletter is concerned you dont have to prejudice the court case by discussing specifics but just a generalised letter telling us
1: Whether there is a court case or not
2: If this is a matter based on seniority or some other issue.
We really should not have to ask for information from the faaa ,this was reportedly started more than a fortnight ago.
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court case or not
as i can see the ongoing discussion about the senority system and the current challenge by a couple of domestic f/a's can hopefully move this issue foreward. as i said before i no longer support the current system but it doesn't mean to get rid of it all together. some cap combined with an instant trip swap system could be a start or the answer. i am a strong believer if you do have an instant swap system in place (without interference from ops or anyone, set MBT etc.), it could work well for everyone. it would also give qf AND f/a's more flexibility. i know some of the overseas system have been looked at but no one expects to have a perfect start. better be pro active then at some stage get "run over by legal directives "
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Carmen is Coming
Carmen is a rostering system developed by a Swedish analyst.
It can be programmed to minimise slip time,down time and maximise utilization.It has the potential in the right(wrong) hands to be ruthless.
QF is doing an evaluation.They seem impressed.
If the bid system and seniority goes and is replaced by Carmen watch out.
It will make the current system look like heaven.
You read it here and you have been warned!!!!
It can be programmed to minimise slip time,down time and maximise utilization.It has the potential in the right(wrong) hands to be ruthless.
QF is doing an evaluation.They seem impressed.
If the bid system and seniority goes and is replaced by Carmen watch out.
It will make the current system look like heaven.
You read it here and you have been warned!!!!
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As I mentioned before the timing of this court case regarding seniority and the introduction of the new IR laws is suspicious and probably not coincidental..
Why does this seem like being in a real life chess game and the other side is 3 or 4 moves ahead of us at all times and we are being forced to play catch up.
Another analogy is that this is another reality tv show and there is an eviction coming up soon .keep watching SURVIVOR MASCOT for more details .
Why does this seem like being in a real life chess game and the other side is 3 or 4 moves ahead of us at all times and we are being forced to play catch up.
Another analogy is that this is another reality tv show and there is an eviction coming up soon .keep watching SURVIVOR MASCOT for more details .
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watch this space
in the current cabin crew news this little paragraph got my attention.
Our safety journey is far from over.
Additional programs under-way include the
Qantas Integrated Fatigue Management
Program and revised employee, supervisor
and manager OHS courses integrating systems
and behavioural safety concepts.
it specifies in the oh act that workplace fatigue is a recognised workplace hazard.it just might have also something to do with the bidding system.
Our safety journey is far from over.
Additional programs under-way include the
Qantas Integrated Fatigue Management
Program and revised employee, supervisor
and manager OHS courses integrating systems
and behavioural safety concepts.
it specifies in the oh act that workplace fatigue is a recognised workplace hazard.it just might have also something to do with the bidding system.
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Hot air & me mentality
This is for Fa*T Elevator and his selfish mates. I have been on the sideline for a few months now but feel compelled to let one rip as I read all the hot air and garbage about getting rid of the current system. Lots of enthusiasm but not much substance. Maybe too much substance! (abuse) Anyway I agree that better the devil you know, and learn that good things come to those that are able to wait. BTW I am not that senior, just enjoy going with the flow and making the best out of where I am. Something the Wannabes yesterday probably don't understand. Cheers and thanx for all the enjoyable reading! Back to the sideline....
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The following is a release from the Longhaul FAAA.
6 April 2006
Attention all Qantas Long Haul and Australian Airlines Flight Attendants
WorkChoices and Maintenance Unions Campaign Update
Update on WorkChoices Legislation
You would be aware that the WorkChoices legislation amendments further amending the national industrial laws in favour of employers have now been finalised by the Federal Government. These amendments came into effect on 27 March 2006.
The Association, like many organisations, is yet to fully comprehend the impact of the 1,397 pages of legislation and regulations to provide a comprehensive overview for its members.
At the outset, we advise you as follows:
1. We do not believe that the Association’s and members’ rights to enforce most provisions in our enterprise agreements with Qantas and Australian Airlines will be affected. However, the legislation contains provisions regarding “prohibited content” – subjects that are no longer able to be enforceable or included in enterprise agreements. “Prohibited content” includes agreed right of entry provisions and agreed restrictions on the engagement of labour hire workers. This comment is subject to a comprehensive review of our EBAs.
2. Your rights to challenge unfair dismissal for “harsh, unjust or unfair” termination of your employment appear unchanged as you are employed by an employer with more than 100 employees. However, the rights of employees whose employment is terminated for “genuine operational reasons” is yet to be determined. This will apply regardless of the size of your employer’s business.
3. NSW employees have lost the right to apply for reinstatement where their employment has been terminated due to a workers’ compensation injury.
Some of the most unfair aspects of WorkChoices include:
1. The ability of a party to terminate an enterprise agreement after its nominal expiry date on 90 days notice.
2. The ability to take legally protected industrial action is extremely limited and can be prevented by the Minister for Workplace Relations.
3. That the terms and conditions of employment for employees on transmission of business are only valid for 12 months from the date of transfer.
4. Enterprise agreements are no longer subject to the scrutiny of public proceedings before the AIRC and subject to the “no disadvantage test” for approval in relation to the safety net award.
We will provide more details to you when we have further advice.
Update on Qantas Maintenance Union EBA Negotiations
The Qantas maintenance workers are continuing to negotiate an agreement with Qantas with limited success. This dispute will be the first major test of Qantas’ position on the new industrial laws.
The maintenance unions (AMWU/AWU) are claiming:
Continuation of their existing terms and conditions
CPI increases plus a two per cent pay rise
A three year agreement
Strengthening of the protocol covering contracting out work.
Qantas is claiming:
A mandatory overtime bank
A flexi-bank for RDOs (dictating when RDOs can be taken)
Averaging hours over six months
Provisions to be able to change hours of work and shift patterns
These changes would result in a significant reduction in pay for many maintenance workers. Although Qantas has not announced that operations will go offshore, it will not back down from threats that maintenance facilities are “continually under review”, giving maintenance workers no certainty as to the future. Additionally, if the maintenance unions seek to take legally protected industrial action, there are new lengthy, unfair and complicated procedures now in place, such as secret ballots. Additionally, any protected action can be vetoed by the Federal Minister for Workplace Relations. We have yet to see how Qantas will use the advantages given to it under the new legislative regime and will watch with keen interest.
AMENDED PARAGRAPH
Update on Qantas Short Haul EBA Certification
The Qantas Short Haul EBA was listed for certification before the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on 23 March 2006. On that date, the Public Interest Advocacy Centre (PIAC – a non-profit legal centre) intervened on behalf of two short haul cabin crew who claim that the Short Haul reserve line allocation process, which is underpinned by the seniority bid system, discriminates against them on the basis of their caring responsibilities. PIAC’s submissions were heard before the AIRC on 4 April 2006. The two crew members claimed that they have difficulty meeting their carer responsibilities by consistently being allocated a reserve line in accordance with the EBA provisions and therefore the EBA provisions are indirectly discriminatory against crew with carer responsibilities. The outcome has been reserved, and we will update you when a decision is delivered. While these proceedings are on-going, the proposed EBA won’t be certified.
Written by Victoria Skinner - National Industrial Officer and
authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division
6 April 2006
Attention all Qantas Long Haul and Australian Airlines Flight Attendants
WorkChoices and Maintenance Unions Campaign Update
Update on WorkChoices Legislation
You would be aware that the WorkChoices legislation amendments further amending the national industrial laws in favour of employers have now been finalised by the Federal Government. These amendments came into effect on 27 March 2006.
The Association, like many organisations, is yet to fully comprehend the impact of the 1,397 pages of legislation and regulations to provide a comprehensive overview for its members.
At the outset, we advise you as follows:
1. We do not believe that the Association’s and members’ rights to enforce most provisions in our enterprise agreements with Qantas and Australian Airlines will be affected. However, the legislation contains provisions regarding “prohibited content” – subjects that are no longer able to be enforceable or included in enterprise agreements. “Prohibited content” includes agreed right of entry provisions and agreed restrictions on the engagement of labour hire workers. This comment is subject to a comprehensive review of our EBAs.
2. Your rights to challenge unfair dismissal for “harsh, unjust or unfair” termination of your employment appear unchanged as you are employed by an employer with more than 100 employees. However, the rights of employees whose employment is terminated for “genuine operational reasons” is yet to be determined. This will apply regardless of the size of your employer’s business.
3. NSW employees have lost the right to apply for reinstatement where their employment has been terminated due to a workers’ compensation injury.
Some of the most unfair aspects of WorkChoices include:
1. The ability of a party to terminate an enterprise agreement after its nominal expiry date on 90 days notice.
2. The ability to take legally protected industrial action is extremely limited and can be prevented by the Minister for Workplace Relations.
3. That the terms and conditions of employment for employees on transmission of business are only valid for 12 months from the date of transfer.
4. Enterprise agreements are no longer subject to the scrutiny of public proceedings before the AIRC and subject to the “no disadvantage test” for approval in relation to the safety net award.
We will provide more details to you when we have further advice.
Update on Qantas Maintenance Union EBA Negotiations
The Qantas maintenance workers are continuing to negotiate an agreement with Qantas with limited success. This dispute will be the first major test of Qantas’ position on the new industrial laws.
The maintenance unions (AMWU/AWU) are claiming:
Continuation of their existing terms and conditions
CPI increases plus a two per cent pay rise
A three year agreement
Strengthening of the protocol covering contracting out work.
Qantas is claiming:
A mandatory overtime bank
A flexi-bank for RDOs (dictating when RDOs can be taken)
Averaging hours over six months
Provisions to be able to change hours of work and shift patterns
These changes would result in a significant reduction in pay for many maintenance workers. Although Qantas has not announced that operations will go offshore, it will not back down from threats that maintenance facilities are “continually under review”, giving maintenance workers no certainty as to the future. Additionally, if the maintenance unions seek to take legally protected industrial action, there are new lengthy, unfair and complicated procedures now in place, such as secret ballots. Additionally, any protected action can be vetoed by the Federal Minister for Workplace Relations. We have yet to see how Qantas will use the advantages given to it under the new legislative regime and will watch with keen interest.
AMENDED PARAGRAPH
Update on Qantas Short Haul EBA Certification
The Qantas Short Haul EBA was listed for certification before the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on 23 March 2006. On that date, the Public Interest Advocacy Centre (PIAC – a non-profit legal centre) intervened on behalf of two short haul cabin crew who claim that the Short Haul reserve line allocation process, which is underpinned by the seniority bid system, discriminates against them on the basis of their caring responsibilities. PIAC’s submissions were heard before the AIRC on 4 April 2006. The two crew members claimed that they have difficulty meeting their carer responsibilities by consistently being allocated a reserve line in accordance with the EBA provisions and therefore the EBA provisions are indirectly discriminatory against crew with carer responsibilities. The outcome has been reserved, and we will update you when a decision is delivered. While these proceedings are on-going, the proposed EBA won’t be certified.
Written by Victoria Skinner - National Industrial Officer and
authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division