Willie Walsh's CC plans
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
So, just out of interest then.. is it still worth anyone joining British Airways as cabin crew on a 'new' contract? It appears to me that most allowances for any airline are taxed at a lower rate anyway, so isn't it better to get more in allowances rather than a higher basic salary? In my experience, a small minority of flightcrew would have you believe that they earn hundreds of thousands of pounds, but with taxation the way it is in this country, if you go over a certain threshold, you effectively 'lose' a third of your salary anyway and is it really worth it..?
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
But all in all the current working practices do NOT reflect the changes in aviation over the last decade. The terms and conditions may be suited to how flying was, but working in the flying world nowadays is similar to working 'on the trains' with the passenger numbers and cheap prices involved.
It has to be said that WW has a definite plan - i.e start from the top and move down so the workers cannot say management haven't taken further cuts!
It has to be said that WW has a definite plan - i.e start from the top and move down so the workers cannot say management haven't taken further cuts!
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Originally Posted by TopBunk
I ask one question, why then can you do a LHR-ARN-LHR (for example) with a 40 minute turnaround, but not a ARN-LHR-ARN (for example) with the same 40 minute turnaround
I know now that all the "non-cabin crew" frequenters of this forum will now say "but the other airlines do it, why shouldn't BA?". Well personally I think cabin crew are treated like dirt by far too many carriers.
It seems some people here would like nothing more than to see all of us at BA in the gutter with no money. At the moment I earn what I consider to be a fair wage, it covers my rent and bills in this part of the country with a little left over to have a holiday once in a while and save for a new car. I think that is perfectly fair, why should it be reduced? No matter what form the agreements take, they make up part of our take home pay
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
You're having a laugh right? Stockholm and back "that sort of day" its only 2 1/2 hours each way.
In all seriousness short turnrounds means shorter working days if you keep the current protections on sectors etc. Wouldn't you rather do quick turnrounds and get home earlier? I dont think its necessarily a bad thing.
In all seriousness short turnrounds means shorter working days if you keep the current protections on sectors etc. Wouldn't you rather do quick turnrounds and get home earlier? I dont think its necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
But then they'd get less allowances, which is the whole point of them sitting around Compass half the day! So when they say they 'work' a 60 hour week and get fewer days off than the pilots its because they want it that way to make the money.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Originally Posted by Hotel Mode
You're having a laugh right? Stockholm and back "that sort of day" its only 2 1/2 hours each way.
Makes it an 8 hour day in my book, with NO break.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Originally Posted by Hand Solo
But then they'd get less allowances, which is the whole point of them sitting around Compass half the day!
Fine, shorten the day and take away allowances. But who the hell is going to work for BA for £10k a year and no breaks during working hours?
I have no idea who you lot are but you just sound like a load of jealous kids who don't like other people having something better than you. Or maybe you're BA pilots who have conveniently forgotten that you once had similar agreements which were "sold" in return for a massive increase in basic pay.
I'm just pleased to say that the agreements won't be changing much as long as the TU's exist so this whole discussion is irrelevant.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Apart from on the crew bus, after cabin secure on departure, after the service is done, after secure on landing and even with 40 mins you should manage at least 10 mins sat down on the ground! I have never seen a BA crew manage an ARN and back without a break for food and drink, it just doesnt happen.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Temper temper, no need for a tantrum. Just a few posts ago Keeperboy asked how many days off a short haul pilot got in comparison to a short haul hostie. It's stating the bleeding obvious to say you can have the same daays off if you want but it's going to cost you money. Now this massive increase in basic pay your talking about, been listening to galley FM again?
All the people who work for bmi?
Have you been walking around with your eyes shut for the last 12 months?
But who the hell is going to work for BA for £10k a year and no breaks during working hours?
I'm just pleased to say that the agreements won't be changing much as long as the TU's exist so this whole discussion is irrelevant.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Originally Posted by Hotel Mode
I have never seen a BA crew manage an ARN and back without a break for food and drink, it just doesnt happen.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Chewy and Solo,
Now come on or we'll have to give you both detention if this continues.
Solo take time out and concentrate on WW hate of your bid line.The fact that most flight crew bar the 757/767 guys are working the the legal max does'nt seem to bother him!!.He does not like the fact you have a choice to bid for days off especially the weekends.God forbid adults flying aircraft with family should want a weekend off,Willie it's just not on!!
.Go and beat the drums on the BALPA website and let us know something about your own community.
Chewy I've been around a lot longer than you(some would say too long) and seen all the threats of lossing money etc and it's all come to nothing.This time will be different,be warned WW will be looking to cut costs in ALL areas,be it the bid line for our pilots or one Captain instead of two on some routes,less nightstops to save on hotac,reduction in box payments,CAT payments or whatever else,he will look at everything.
Natural savings will be made with T5 having all flights under one roof equalling less passengers having to become olympic athetes to make their connections and BA having to rebook or pay out,less M.T. drivers,more internet booking of tickets,self check in from home or in the terminal,the list goes on.
Chewy none of us are going to like what may be on the way,but instead of getting worked up about it lets wait and see what is planned,then we can move forward hopefully through negotiation and common sense from all parties,dealing with problems if or when they arrive.
WW will look and act and if groups of workers have had it too good for too long he will change and if they don't move with the change they will go or be outsourced.
Too big a reduction in front line staff and product will have a direct affect on our customers who have a great choice of airlines these days.So if cuts are to be made in these areas they must be done with caution in mind and must not hurt the people who pay our wages,the passenger.
Well I'm off to chill now with a couple of cold beers and a couple of large nightcaps to ward off the flu!!
Chill everyone.
WTDWL.
P.S. CHEWY,you may just find your colleague Hotel Mode may have done a few years on Eurofleet,just a thought!!!.
Now come on or we'll have to give you both detention if this continues.
Solo take time out and concentrate on WW hate of your bid line.The fact that most flight crew bar the 757/767 guys are working the the legal max does'nt seem to bother him!!.He does not like the fact you have a choice to bid for days off especially the weekends.God forbid adults flying aircraft with family should want a weekend off,Willie it's just not on!!
.Go and beat the drums on the BALPA website and let us know something about your own community.Chewy I've been around a lot longer than you(some would say too long) and seen all the threats of lossing money etc and it's all come to nothing.This time will be different,be warned WW will be looking to cut costs in ALL areas,be it the bid line for our pilots or one Captain instead of two on some routes,less nightstops to save on hotac,reduction in box payments,CAT payments or whatever else,he will look at everything.
Natural savings will be made with T5 having all flights under one roof equalling less passengers having to become olympic athetes to make their connections and BA having to rebook or pay out,less M.T. drivers,more internet booking of tickets,self check in from home or in the terminal,the list goes on.
Chewy none of us are going to like what may be on the way,but instead of getting worked up about it lets wait and see what is planned,then we can move forward hopefully through negotiation and common sense from all parties,dealing with problems if or when they arrive.
WW will look and act and if groups of workers have had it too good for too long he will change and if they don't move with the change they will go or be outsourced.
Too big a reduction in front line staff and product will have a direct affect on our customers who have a great choice of airlines these days.So if cuts are to be made in these areas they must be done with caution in mind and must not hurt the people who pay our wages,the passenger.
Well I'm off to chill now with a couple of cold beers and a couple of large nightcaps to ward off the flu!!
Chill everyone.
WTDWL.
P.S. CHEWY,you may just find your colleague Hotel Mode may have done a few years on Eurofleet,just a thought!!!.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Originally Posted by ChewyTheWookie
Because if we were to demand a break on the LHR-ARN-LHR it would mean the a/c would be sitting on stand in ARN doing nothing for a while and being of no use to anyone. We're not happy about it, why the hell should we be doing that sort of day without a break?
But it's not a new thing --- you've been doing it since the year dot, since Pontius was a pilot. It has always been accepted, without complaint. Sorry, your argument fails there.
What happens is that when you get a LHR-ARN-LHR is that you get increased clear times (which may or may not trigger extra allowances) because of a 'long' day, even though you get to your cars at the same time as the pilots. This day is further extended to pay in duty free bars that often don't exist!
I only give these as examples of practises totally incompatible with the late 20th century, let alone the 21st! They are all designed to 'get your hours up' without doing any work that generates revenue.
Yes, we did renegotiate the 'whole' package a few years ago and yes the company were less than transparent with you, but you still get paid for early morning reports, telephone allowances and chr*st knows what else. These agreements, let alone the CAT payments to do nothing, are under serious scrutiny by WW. Be afraid, very afraid. You know as well as I do that every single person - yes, even on the new contract, says that life in BA as CC is a piece of p*ss compared to BMI etc.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
The thing I really don't think people seem to realise is that it's not BA being particularly easy on us, it's bmi, easyjet and the charter airlines treating their staff like ****. If a comparaison is going to be made, the point should be that they are being treated badly.
I don't care which airline anyone works for, no-one should be working all day without a break and no-one should be working all day for £10k basic in London and no allowances.
I don't care what people say, BA crew do not often get a chance to take 10 mins and have a proper break during a flight. The other day I did a IST there and back on 767, high club load both ways. We got to the aircraft 30 mins after briefing (no, the wait for the bus and the journey does not count as a "break"). We did our checks and boarded, did the demo and sat down for 10 minutes as we taxiied out (no, this is not a "break" either). As soon as was safe after wheels up we started the service, this took the best part of 2 hours. As soon as the service was done I shoved a crew meal down in 2 minutes flat before starting duty frees. This took the best part of another hour, by which time we were 20 minutes out of IST. We landed, taxiied, got the pax off, did the checks and then got barged about by cleaners for 20 minutes until it was time to board again and everything repeated...
We got back to Compass 10+ hours after we left and didn't get a proper "break" at all. If we were in the offices we'd have probably spent the best part of 2 hours having lunch and tea breaks during the day and we wouldn't have been rushing about at high altitude.
Anyway, who knows what WW is looking at? Everyone seems so convinced that he is going to start attacking CC agreements, has he actually told someone that?
I don't care which airline anyone works for, no-one should be working all day without a break and no-one should be working all day for £10k basic in London and no allowances.
I don't care what people say, BA crew do not often get a chance to take 10 mins and have a proper break during a flight. The other day I did a IST there and back on 767, high club load both ways. We got to the aircraft 30 mins after briefing (no, the wait for the bus and the journey does not count as a "break"). We did our checks and boarded, did the demo and sat down for 10 minutes as we taxiied out (no, this is not a "break" either). As soon as was safe after wheels up we started the service, this took the best part of 2 hours. As soon as the service was done I shoved a crew meal down in 2 minutes flat before starting duty frees. This took the best part of another hour, by which time we were 20 minutes out of IST. We landed, taxiied, got the pax off, did the checks and then got barged about by cleaners for 20 minutes until it was time to board again and everything repeated...
We got back to Compass 10+ hours after we left and didn't get a proper "break" at all. If we were in the offices we'd have probably spent the best part of 2 hours having lunch and tea breaks during the day and we wouldn't have been rushing about at high altitude.
Anyway, who knows what WW is looking at? Everyone seems so convinced that he is going to start attacking CC agreements, has he actually told someone that?
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
In general Top Bunk a good post.I for one know how good things are at CC BA compared to others.However these things were agreed over the years with the signatures of both the Management and the Unions.
If someone is doing better than someone else should they give it up and reduce their pay and conditions to bring them level with others or should others aim for what you have.
Many pilots aim for BA,(EK,full package inc accommodation,tax incentive etc),because they want a better life for themselves and/or their families.I do not blame them at all and I wish them good luck.
Why therefore should we at BA Cabin Crew not aim for the same?.I pay the mortgage on a 3 bed semi,drive a '96 car,have 2 kids ,one of which is in further education and the 9 year old who thinks he has a direct link to Argos!!.One holiday a year.Which part of this should I give up to make the rich even richer(shareholders)!!?. WW will be here for 3/4 years, trim the company/staff and then f*** off with £3-4 million share options and bonus.
I know we as Cabin Crew are going to take hits and there are areas were we can.These have to be negoticated.If these cut backs had been acheived years ago and people in the 'Waterworld' realised that the company was top heavy and we rely on pilots and front line staff the forthcoming cuts may not have hurt as much as they will.
If the aim of this thread is to reduce the earnings of cabin crew to benefit the future pay of others I think it stinks!!.
I appreciate the work load and responsibility you guys at the front have and I do not begrudge you a penny of what you earn.Why is it so important to you what I and other BA crew earn.At the end of the day I pay my mortgage not yours!!.
Please act as a colleague and not the enemy.I thought for some reason we got on as crew at BA.But from the postings on here I begin to wonder.I still believe the vast majority of my flight deck colleagues appreciate the job I do and have no problem with what I earn.Maybe it's only the few on Pprune and Crewcom who hold these views.
I'll delivery more good service next week and bring back the passengers who pay your wages.
WTDWL.
If someone is doing better than someone else should they give it up and reduce their pay and conditions to bring them level with others or should others aim for what you have.
Many pilots aim for BA,(EK,full package inc accommodation,tax incentive etc),because they want a better life for themselves and/or their families.I do not blame them at all and I wish them good luck.
Why therefore should we at BA Cabin Crew not aim for the same?.I pay the mortgage on a 3 bed semi,drive a '96 car,have 2 kids ,one of which is in further education and the 9 year old who thinks he has a direct link to Argos!!.One holiday a year.Which part of this should I give up to make the rich even richer(shareholders)!!?. WW will be here for 3/4 years, trim the company/staff and then f*** off with £3-4 million share options and bonus.
I know we as Cabin Crew are going to take hits and there are areas were we can.These have to be negoticated.If these cut backs had been acheived years ago and people in the 'Waterworld' realised that the company was top heavy and we rely on pilots and front line staff the forthcoming cuts may not have hurt as much as they will.
If the aim of this thread is to reduce the earnings of cabin crew to benefit the future pay of others I think it stinks!!.
I appreciate the work load and responsibility you guys at the front have and I do not begrudge you a penny of what you earn.Why is it so important to you what I and other BA crew earn.At the end of the day I pay my mortgage not yours!!.
Please act as a colleague and not the enemy.I thought for some reason we got on as crew at BA.But from the postings on here I begin to wonder.I still believe the vast majority of my flight deck colleagues appreciate the job I do and have no problem with what I earn.Maybe it's only the few on Pprune and Crewcom who hold these views.
I'll delivery more good service next week and bring back the passengers who pay your wages.
WTDWL.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
ChewyTheWookie.. I have read with great interest this post just to see why everyone seems to be getting there 'knickers-in-a-knot' but was concerned also that you seem to think that the majority of other airlines out there 'treat there staff like ****' well, I'm sorry to shatter anyones illusions out there, but the airline I work for doesn't treat me like **** at all.. I work for a very forward thinking company who positively encourages every member of it's staff on a daily basis, we have 'confirmed seat' staff travel, free car parking at a location less than 100 metres from my crew room, I have a free uniform & allowances to replace it at anytime. A contributory pension scheme.. A whole host of special staff offers & bargains for major chain & other retail, sports & leisure outlets.. I get to fly on lovely shiney new planes most of the time.. I get food, sandwiches & 'goodies' while I'm at work, oh, and I get a total package salary of over £25,000 a year.. If it's that bad where you are, come and join me & my friends, we work hard, but it really is great.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Superstewardess,
I think you may have missed the point completely...
I'm not complaining about where I am, I am very happy there. I am complaining about the way everyone seems hell bent on seeing everything about my job ripped to pieces so i end up working much harder for less money.
I think you may have missed the point completely...
I'm not complaining about where I am, I am very happy there. I am complaining about the way everyone seems hell bent on seeing everything about my job ripped to pieces so i end up working much harder for less money.
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Just wanted to echo Chewy's applause of whattimedoweland. For once someone has taken time to reply properly.
Shouldn't we all be worrying about the fact that we have no pension when we retire. Something I think is far more pressing at this moment in time.
Are all the pilots replying on here long-haulers by the way? Can't remember any of you getting so upset when we chat about these things on night stops in Europe.
Please stop winding each other up. Pprune is becoming SO tedious because of it.
tsb
Shouldn't we all be worrying about the fact that we have no pension when we retire. Something I think is far more pressing at this moment in time.
Are all the pilots replying on here long-haulers by the way? Can't remember any of you getting so upset when we chat about these things on night stops in Europe.
Please stop winding each other up. Pprune is becoming SO tedious because of it.
tsb
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Re: Willie Walsh's CC plans
Why is there this eternal battle that certain members of the flight crew community feel that they have to slate CC for what they earn?? Could you please explain that. I thought that being a part of a commercial airline was that the Flight crew and Cabin crew were to work together to get the pax from A to B. Contractual agreements decide pay and T and C's!! As individuals we do not have any real control over these, that is why we have elected representatives to support us through this process
Another thing to point out, whilst you are all bickering about what WW is going to do to Cabin crew, I would like to point out that flight crew will not be immune from his touch either. So do take that into consideration.
No one likes change, but change is inevitable. WW was bought in specifically for this reason, so let's face the facts and get on with it.
Another thing to point out, whilst you are all bickering about what WW is going to do to Cabin crew, I would like to point out that flight crew will not be immune from his touch either. So do take that into consideration.
No one likes change, but change is inevitable. WW was bought in specifically for this reason, so let's face the facts and get on with it.
