Over wing exits

[pax britanica]

Hi
Ive done a fair amount of flying in USA and over there they are very picky about who sits in the over wing exit row window seat -or if no window seat as sometimes the case ,who sits nearest the window.

Perfectly good reason being that it needs an able bodied person to react, open, and then throw the exit plug out of the aircraft in the event of an emergency on the ground.

Are there any rules in the UK on this.? I ask because as pax on a BA flight into LGW yesterday ona 737-300 with one over wing exit we had the prototype little old lady of about 80 white haired glasses-hearing not great and although healthy looking she was very tiny sat next to the window on the exit row.

With only two overwing exits on a 73-3 I really thought this was a serious ommision on the part of the crew . I didnt say anything pre flight because its a nice seat for the lady to have and the crew were pleasant and cheerful on a short busy sector but it seemed odd that they made a fuss about a person in the other oposite side exit row removing a pair of flip flops from the floor but tolerated someone who was clearly unsuitable to aid in a speedy evacuation-are there any rules on this.
Just curious?
PB

[pamann]

Are there any rules in the UK on this.?

The ruling here in the UK is the same at an overwing exit as in the States (with maybe slight variations). At the airline I work for here in the UK our ruling is; Able bodied passengers (ABP's) to be sat here i.e; no elderly, infirm or person's with reduced mobility, no children or under 16's, no obese, no deportees, person's in custody or prisoners, no ill or pregnant passengers/passengers with infants. To be fair the list is endless. The problem being that a lot of passengers know this and will do there best to make check-in unaware of some of the above and compromise the safety of others for their own selfishness of wanting extra legroom. In all fairness yes if spotted the crew should move and reseat this person if unsuitably allocated this seat by check-in which brings me to your comment.....

I really thought this was a serious ommision on the part of the crew

Would that not be check-in maybe??? Yes I agree the crew should have noticed this, but sometimes I wonder where the check-in staff's salary is on my wage slip cos I'm often doing the job they are paid to do in the first place when having to reseat and rectify their mistakes on board!

[Carnage Matey!]

we had the prototype little old lady

If shes the prototype little old lady she'd be a bit older than 80! Passengers in the exit rows are required to be able bodied. The best way I've seen this handled is to explain to the passenger what the requirements for sitting in that seat are and are they willing and able to meet those requirements. Sometimes they say no and volunteer to move, others have no problem.

[pax britanica]

Thanks for the comments- well yes, perhaps I should have said stereo typical elderly lady.

I think, in fairness to the check in people she was not actually allocated the window seat because there was some shuffling around in that row -the gentleman travelling with her while also no spring chicken was tall and quite fit looking and I think he would have managed ok .
Regarding your check in comment BA have a habit at LGW of altering the type of 73 used on many trips which means if you check in on line you often get a different seat from the one allocated as -for example a 300 is swapped for a - 400. Thats why I thought and think the cabin crew have the final responsibility for making sure the cabin is secure and the relevant rules in that respect are complied with

Anyway was only a question out of interest and thanks both for taking the time to comment
PB

[OZcabincrew]

the ground staff are responsible for making sure that anyone they allocate to an exit row meets the required criteria, however passengers have a tendency to try and move around etc when the F/A's backs are turned, but the final responsibility before take off of making sure everyone at an exit row meets the criteria & are briefed comes down to the crew, if the crew don't think they meet the criteria, they should be moved, simple. I have noticed, some crew are very relaxed and blase with their overwing briefing's and with the passengers seated there, but what they need to think is "can i trust that person in an emergency? would i feel comfortable relying on them?"

Oz

[ILS26L]

strict checks

I know that strict checks must be observed. Crew on that specific airline might have been complacent on the day...

[blue_stew]

I think if the airlines were really serious about safety at overwing exits they would remove those rows of seats, put a jump seat there and have a flight attendant there for takeoff and landing. Of course thats a loss of revenue isn't it? Safety and profit never go together.

[ditzyboy]

It would have been easier for check-in to have sat the lady in another seat.

Once the lady is sitting there the cabin crew don't really have many options to move her. Cabin crew are not doctors or physio and hold not qualification or authority to tell the lady she is not capable of lifting the exit or performing the function.

What I do in this instance is just ask older people if they would be able to open the exit QUICKLY and get out QUICKLY to allow everyone behind them to do the same. I place emphasis on the importance in the role.

About half the time they choose to move and half the time they are eager to volunteer. At my airline we place all hand luggage in lockers at exits rows. Alot of the time little old ladies are not willing to part with their handbag and ask for another seat anyway.

I think the above is the politest way to ascertain as to whether or not an older person is willing and capable of opening the exit.

Cabin crew are in no position to tell someone they cannot perform the function based how fit they think they may be. I cringe every time I see a flight attendant try to tell someone they are too old to sit at an exit. There is more than one way to skin a cat as they say, and there is always a politer more PC way.

[shortm]

Ditzyboy, I completely disagree with the statement you made saying

"Once the lady is sitting there the cabin crew don't really have many options to move her. Cabin crew are not doctors or physio and hold not qualification or authority to tell the lady she is not capable of lifting the exit or performing the function"

We are not doctors but we do have the authority to tell a pax that we do not CONSIDER they are able to perform the function required. Admittedly I do generally find another way of moving them (the trick you mentioned of offering them another seat so they can keep their handbaggage works well) but if necessary will state the fact that IN MY OPINION they are not suitable.

Also, I think in the US things are a bit more stringent. Last year I was told that I would have to move from the overwing exit as I was too small to sit there. I politely advised the crew that I was cabin crew and operated this type of aircraft and had opened the exit on an annual basis for the last 8 years ... still had to move but did so without complaining.

[ILS26L]

at the end of the day, cabin crew are trained and follow SOPs. PAX not willing to cooperate can be offloaded. FACT.

[GLAcabincrew]

In the case mentioned, I would have asked the pax politely to move, explaining the reason why, and apologising for any mistakes made at check-in. As cabin crew, it is our responsibility to make sure the occupants of exit rows are ABP's on ALL flights.

[ditzyboy]

shortm -
What I was trying to say was that I have seen crew tell people they are "too old" to sit there. Or that they "would not be able to lift the exit."

We can always find other ways to move pax and I agree some pax are more suitable than others. Though we do NOT possess the qualifications or authority to tell someone that they cannot lift 'x' kilos and use that as the reason for re-seating. All we can do is move them using some other reason. That was my point.

There is a flight attendant being sued currently for making such brash statements to a customer.

Whilst I will try to discourage those from non-English speaking backgrounds or little old ladies from sitting at an exit I will never move someone if they constantly reassure me that they understand and are capable of performing a function.

It is not in my job discription to prove people wrong or brand them as liars. I had a man tell me his son was 15. I asked the son and the man twice again as I did not believe them. I told them they were making a statement of good faith that he and the boy were adhering to CASA regulations/federal law. All but one of my crew agreed to leave the situation there. One girl said I should be checking ID and what not. I just don't think it is my job or my place to be proving pax are liars in this instance.

[Flugbegleiter]

shortm said:
Also, I think in the US things are a bit more stringent. Last year I was told that I would have to move from the overwing exit as I was too small to sit there. I politely advised the crew that I was cabin crew and operated this type of aircraft and had opened the exit on an annual basis for the last 8 years ... still had to move but did so without complaining.

Are you serious? That's ridiculous. If told that information, they should have left you there. I know I would certainly rather have a "short" flight attendant at an overwing exit, rather than a taller "ordinary" person. Any idiot can open those exits - it's knowing when NOT to open them (into fire, etc) that is the most important thing. That's the kind of situation we are trained for. You must have been annoyed.

[Tudor]

There is a flight attendant being sued currently for making such brash statements to a customer

I assume this is in the US?

[Dave Gittins]

Brings me in mind of the Airtours 737 accident at Manchester in 1985. One of the recommendations of the AAIB report was that following the length of time it took to open the one good overwing exit (amongst other problems) all the row 10 seats should be removed completely. As that hasn't happened surely it should be ensured for the future that somebody with the nous and ability should sit next to that exit in future.

I have frequently asked check-in staff to have a look at their seating plan if I am offered a choice of seats and am generally told that their plan cannot identify which seats are next to exits or overwing exits. Or is this simply because I didn't pay Britannia's £10 "seat reservation" fee ???

[GLAcabincrew]

ditzyboy, in which country do you operate? In the UK, if the son was 15, he would have been moved as the CAA states that only people 16 and over can sit at exit rows.

[ditzyboy]

Tudor -
No. Here in Australia... Getting more and more like the US every day.

GLAcc -
Here in Australia it is 15 and over. You can be 15 and sit at an exit.

The AirTours 737 incident at MAN really brings home the importance of being able to open the exit quickly and get out. Perhaps some photos of the incident placarded on the back of the seat in exit rows would help our pax to decide whether or not they really are up to the challenge (as opposed to giggle and laugh at the exit row briefing)...

[GLAcabincrew]

ditzyboy,

might be a good idea!!!! I agree they don't usually listen to briefings. The other day I had a middle aged passenger laughing while I was about to do a manual demo - I had to tell him 3 times how serious it was!!!!!

[sixmilehighclub]

The CAA regulation states that all persons seated at a self help exit must be briefed. With BA this is pointing out they are in an exit row, asking them to familiarise themselves with the instructions on how to use the exit, if they have any questions to ask the crew and if they are happy to be seated there.

So basically if the 80 year old passenger felt she was capable, she is ok to sit there. If any crew member disagrees, then she would be moved.

It is possible a discussion took place to get a second opinion with another crew member out of sight.

PS: GLA CC, The CAA does not regulate you have to be 16 or over to be seated in an overwing exit. Providing feet are touching the floor and they can lift the hatch out, they are entitled to sit there. They can be 12, but if they're tall enough and strong enough, its fine.

[Volume]

My personal experience seated at emergency exits :

Lufthansa, A320 overwing exit :
No briefing at all, just placards on the seat.

Air Berlin, 737 new outward opening overwing exits :
No briefing at all, just placards on the seat.

British Airways, EM135 overwing exit :
Good briefing by the F/A, she removed the cover and showed me the handle to open the exit, detailded instructions to throw out the door after opening it inward, excellent.
On the flight back I asked again for the same seat (more legspace ), but was refused and placed somewhere else. Don“t know why.

Japan Airlines, 747 upper deck emergency exit:
With the boarding pass I recieved a yellow paper, stating that I have been seated at an emergency exit and will be briefed by a F/A. No briefing occured. Then I asked the F/A, showing the yellow paper, only answer was "Don“t touch anything"