EBA & IR Issues in Australia (Not for those easily offended!)
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thank you flugenluft you shed some extra light on the subject. however i think there needs a lot more detailed explaination/education/ study from the experts. you see jettlagger also has a point where are the limits?
P747 says"..... its a miracle very little has changed for LH Crew in the last 10 yrs".
has P747 been in the faaa office too long or is it on those little pink pills guardian1 is referiing on. maybe you too sit in the office sharing and caring.
P747 says"..... its a miracle very little has changed for LH Crew in the last 10 yrs".
has P747 been in the faaa office too long or is it on those little pink pills guardian1 is referiing on. maybe you too sit in the office sharing and caring.
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The tech crew have been doing a fatigue study for some considerable time now which necessitates the wearing and use of a time monitoring device.
It sounds as though the faaa’s 3 sisters have had the “Best and Less” version of a fatigue study over a period of about 5 minutes where someone has looked at our pattern book and said it is only of a moderate fatigue level without any type of time and/or rest recording with operating crew on this sector.What sort of scientific study or model is that?
To any faaa official reading this or gauardian1 or peggy 747 show us the letter the faaa sent to Drew Dawson stating what the faaa was interested in and Dr Dawson’s reply and finding.
Anyone who has done an LA knows it is difficult to get much if any sleep before call and then you have between a 15 and 18 hour sector, which is a long day in anyone’s business.
It sounds as though the faaa’s 3 sisters have had the “Best and Less” version of a fatigue study over a period of about 5 minutes where someone has looked at our pattern book and said it is only of a moderate fatigue level without any type of time and/or rest recording with operating crew on this sector.What sort of scientific study or model is that?
To any faaa official reading this or gauardian1 or peggy 747 show us the letter the faaa sent to Drew Dawson stating what the faaa was interested in and Dr Dawson’s reply and finding.
Anyone who has done an LA knows it is difficult to get much if any sleep before call and then you have between a 15 and 18 hour sector, which is a long day in anyone’s business.
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Jettlager, You have suggested I have said something that I haven't. I did not at anytime suggest you can store sleep. This in fact does not work - you can't 'bank' sleep.
There is much literature on this subject available on Google or even by sending an email with your questions to the Centre for Sleep Research. Sharing their knowledge is the reason researchers exist
There is much literature on this subject available on Google or even by sending an email with your questions to the Centre for Sleep Research. Sharing their knowledge is the reason researchers exist
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thanks to flugenluft we have now established a research corner (san fermented grape juices). after many phone calls and searching various websites we came across this casa website (casa.gov.au/cabin crew fatigue research). can the faaa guys please explain what/where they are with the research?
Cabin Crew Fatigue Management
Background
There is currently no legislation covering fatigue management for cabin crew. The proposed Part 119 requires operators have a fatigue management system in place for all crewmembers.
A project was initiated in October 2000 with the aim of introducing interim legislation to address flight and duty time limits for cabin crew pending introduction of fatigue management systems.
The draft interim legislation, which was based on European legislation modified for Australian conditions, did not receive the support of human factors specialists on the grounds that the flight duty tables that formed the nucleus of the proposal had no scientific basis and were therefore not defendable on safety grounds. Endorsing existing workplace agreements as an interim legislative measure was considered but rejected, as not all cabin crew are covered by agreements.
A meeting of CASA personnel involved in a variety of projects relating to fatigue management issues was held in Canberra in July 2001. An outcome of the meeting was the decision to discontinue the interim legislation project and to include cabin crew in the fatigue management system projects currently underway.
As with flight crew the fatigue systems for cabin crew need to address two distinct areas of operation - trans-meridian operations where duty involves the crossing of multiple time zones (international operations) and domestic operations, where the crossing of time zones is not usually a critical factor in fatigue management.
Current Projects
International
The Fatigue Risk Management System project (FRMS) is currently focusing on trans-meridian operations by pilots. Data gathered from the project will for the most part also be relevant to cabin crew and used as a benchmark for assessing the adequacy of systems introduced by operators.
Domestic
The domestic operations project was undertaken initially to facilitate the implementation of fatigue management systems (FMS) for operators to replace exemptions under CAO 48, and has to date focused only on the general aviation sector. Once the concept of fatigue management using FMS has been validated, it will be extended to include the low and high capacity airline sector including both aircrew and cabin crew.
Cabin Crew Fatigue Management
Background
There is currently no legislation covering fatigue management for cabin crew. The proposed Part 119 requires operators have a fatigue management system in place for all crewmembers.
A project was initiated in October 2000 with the aim of introducing interim legislation to address flight and duty time limits for cabin crew pending introduction of fatigue management systems.
The draft interim legislation, which was based on European legislation modified for Australian conditions, did not receive the support of human factors specialists on the grounds that the flight duty tables that formed the nucleus of the proposal had no scientific basis and were therefore not defendable on safety grounds. Endorsing existing workplace agreements as an interim legislative measure was considered but rejected, as not all cabin crew are covered by agreements.
A meeting of CASA personnel involved in a variety of projects relating to fatigue management issues was held in Canberra in July 2001. An outcome of the meeting was the decision to discontinue the interim legislation project and to include cabin crew in the fatigue management system projects currently underway.
As with flight crew the fatigue systems for cabin crew need to address two distinct areas of operation - trans-meridian operations where duty involves the crossing of multiple time zones (international operations) and domestic operations, where the crossing of time zones is not usually a critical factor in fatigue management.
Current Projects
International
The Fatigue Risk Management System project (FRMS) is currently focusing on trans-meridian operations by pilots. Data gathered from the project will for the most part also be relevant to cabin crew and used as a benchmark for assessing the adequacy of systems introduced by operators.
Domestic
The domestic operations project was undertaken initially to facilitate the implementation of fatigue management systems (FMS) for operators to replace exemptions under CAO 48, and has to date focused only on the general aviation sector. Once the concept of fatigue management using FMS has been validated, it will be extended to include the low and high capacity airline sector including both aircrew and cabin crew.
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This is all very interesting stuff and Fatigue Management is the new buzz phrase of the 21st century transport industry. It could be used to either parties advantage, depending on how well its introduction is managed.
Jettlager, scrolling back thru the pages demonstrates you to be quite negative and perhaps uneducated. Perhaps you really do need your job because you are otherwise unemployable. I took the time to share some information I obtained from the CfSR in the hope of adding something factual to the debate.
Jettlager, scrolling back thru the pages demonstrates you to be quite negative and perhaps uneducated. Perhaps you really do need your job because you are otherwise unemployable. I took the time to share some information I obtained from the CfSR in the hope of adding something factual to the debate.
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Ah.......no
Quote-
" took the time to share some information I obtained from the CfSR in the hope of adding something factual to the debate."
You "actually" posted misinformation designed to cloud the debate.
I'm a flight attendant employed by qantas.
Who's payrole are you on and what is your "job title".
" took the time to share some information I obtained from the CfSR in the hope of adding something factual to the debate."
You "actually" posted misinformation designed to cloud the debate.
I'm a flight attendant employed by qantas.
Who's payrole are you on and what is your "job title".
Last edited by jettlager; 20th Sep 2005 at 07:36.
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FYI -
LHR base
20 crew called in sick on Friday 16/9/05
and 19 on Saturday 16/9/05
mmm.....must be saving them loads of money!!!
The base manager Eric Jelynek even manned the phones himself to scare the crew into not calling in sick.
LHR base
20 crew called in sick on Friday 16/9/05
and 19 on Saturday 16/9/05
mmm.....must be saving them loads of money!!!
The base manager Eric Jelynek even manned the phones himself to scare the crew into not calling in sick.
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Apparently the record so far is 40 in one day and last week 4 F/A on the one crew in Singapore went sick at the same time…is that the LHR base equivalent of bulk billing?
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Fluft or should I say baron? You seem well aquainted with the fatige info? Waht we may add is tht as QF comply (in nme ) with ICao policy re fatige, any F attendant as per FAM amy nee must remoev hemselevs from a pattern if they feel they are or ould become fatigued! I liked that part, oesnt seem anyone has used it on th NYC shuttles...yet.
cheers all keep up the good fight remember the enemy is not the worker its thr bloody bonus system. ps sorry about the inevitable spllos nd typos, if you know me youll understand why!
cheers all keep up the good fight remember the enemy is not the worker its thr bloody bonus system. ps sorry about the inevitable spllos nd typos, if you know me youll understand why!
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It's a fascinating and dynamic research project at the moment. Much has been published and is easily accessible on the net for those interested to understand it further.
Have a good day
Have a good day
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So flugenluft...
Tell me, what scientific methods and parameters were used in the study of the JFK shuttle in particular?
How long were readings taken and how many crew participated in this study to arrive at the conclusion that the shuttle is only of a moderate fatigue level?
Did Dr Dawson actually conclude after analyzing all the available data that the shuttle was only moderately fatiguing and if so what sectors constitute a higher level of fatigue?
Tell me, what scientific methods and parameters were used in the study of the JFK shuttle in particular?
How long were readings taken and how many crew participated in this study to arrive at the conclusion that the shuttle is only of a moderate fatigue level?
Did Dr Dawson actually conclude after analyzing all the available data that the shuttle was only moderately fatiguing and if so what sectors constitute a higher level of fatigue?
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That's amazing sick leave figures out of the LHR base. Where the hell is Peanut?? Come on Peanut please explain!! Give us the run down on customer satisfaction and staff turnover blah blah blah!
Hey Cart Exchange or qflhr give us a run down on whats going on up there!
Hey Cart Exchange or qflhr give us a run down on whats going on up there!
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Yes that is bad if it's true
If last weekends sick leave was that then thats bad for all concerned in LHR.
Can't comment as I was away and all my crew showed up with no sickies.
Kinda reminds me of the 171 crew who called sick over the 2000 millenium new years eve and new years day in Syd L/H. I got turned around on arrival in SIN, but hey thats life and the job.
Quick question for Bad Adventures and the hate crew,
Q, My last hand over a/c had a cheese board in the tray stowage in D2 galley, o2 bottle used and not logged, insuffient ordering and a tape jammed in first class personal player that wasn't reported so engineering could fix and food in the ovens in P class.
What should I have done ?
A, write a childish report
B, get on with it and fix the situation in 10 minutes
C, or make up stories about my old base and spread them to all half wits that will listen to them
Yes if the sick leave is that bad as I havn't had it confirmed yet I can't comment to extensively.
But a few very young UK crew have the virgin blue syndrom that they like to have a flight attendants uniform and job but hate to work weekends.
Once again kinda reminds me of the BKK base in the first year with the BKK crew going sick in LHR every flight to pick up extra pounds in allowance untill they started sacking them.
All stats will be ready for public viewing very soon, maybe next roadshow
Qflhr tell us what the last 6 months of customer feedback surveys say ?
The ones on the base wall, base by base
Now back to the
1 FAAA bashing
2 The great JFK shuttle debate
3 I'am so tired yes or no
4 Make up anything crap because I have nothing better to do in my shallow flying life
Can't comment as I was away and all my crew showed up with no sickies.
Kinda reminds me of the 171 crew who called sick over the 2000 millenium new years eve and new years day in Syd L/H. I got turned around on arrival in SIN, but hey thats life and the job.
Quick question for Bad Adventures and the hate crew,
Q, My last hand over a/c had a cheese board in the tray stowage in D2 galley, o2 bottle used and not logged, insuffient ordering and a tape jammed in first class personal player that wasn't reported so engineering could fix and food in the ovens in P class.
What should I have done ?
A, write a childish report
B, get on with it and fix the situation in 10 minutes
C, or make up stories about my old base and spread them to all half wits that will listen to them
Yes if the sick leave is that bad as I havn't had it confirmed yet I can't comment to extensively.
But a few very young UK crew have the virgin blue syndrom that they like to have a flight attendants uniform and job but hate to work weekends.
Once again kinda reminds me of the BKK base in the first year with the BKK crew going sick in LHR every flight to pick up extra pounds in allowance untill they started sacking them.
All stats will be ready for public viewing very soon, maybe next roadshow
Qflhr tell us what the last 6 months of customer feedback surveys say ?
The ones on the base wall, base by base
Now back to the
1 FAAA bashing
2 The great JFK shuttle debate
3 I'am so tired yes or no
4 Make up anything crap because I have nothing better to do in my shallow flying life
Last edited by peanut pusher; 21st Sep 2005 at 19:26.
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Peanut…
1: A simple maths test, as a percentage which is higher
171 crew out of 4000 or 5000 or
40 crew out of 400 or 500….
In all my time flying ,I have never seen 4 F/A’s on the one crew go sick at the same time while in a slip port.
2: Don’t tell me again that you are saying that the roadshows are factual and not biased towards the company at all.
The sick leave issue is not a reflection on you but on the base concept and management.
I would like to discuss various things with the faaa reps here but they cannot and will not answer some simple questions?
So we talk about other things here but I would like some answers about Dr Dawsons methods, figures and how he arrives at a conclusion!!
1: A simple maths test, as a percentage which is higher
171 crew out of 4000 or 5000 or
40 crew out of 400 or 500….
In all my time flying ,I have never seen 4 F/A’s on the one crew go sick at the same time while in a slip port.
2: Don’t tell me again that you are saying that the roadshows are factual and not biased towards the company at all.
The sick leave issue is not a reflection on you but on the base concept and management.
I would like to discuss various things with the faaa reps here but they cannot and will not answer some simple questions?
So we talk about other things here but I would like some answers about Dr Dawsons methods, figures and how he arrives at a conclusion!!
Last edited by lowerlobe; 21st Sep 2005 at 21:13.