EBA & IR Issues in Australia (Not for those easily offended!)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RedTBar...
I think Warp has summed it up.Last time i answer your email Warp :-)
I too have enjoyed our debate Red and i respect your view. Crew will shortly decide the issue and their future will be determined by the manner in which they decide.
I think Warp has summed it up.Last time i answer your email Warp :-)
I too have enjoyed our debate Red and i respect your view. Crew will shortly decide the issue and their future will be determined by the manner in which they decide.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
US CHAT FORUMS AND NYC SHUTTLE
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the discussion on here. It's clear that there are at least 2 ppl on here at least who have quite different views.
I was talking to an FAAA official last week and asked about whether this was a precedent for anything that Qantas might want in the future.
His response was that its no more a precedent than any other "without Prejudice" agreement that the unions reaches with QAntas.
Evidently its common practice and has been done by the union for many many year by the previous and current officials.
He said the AICCA and then FAAA gave dispensations ofr SYD/SIN/SGN coz of fuel probs and that went over 14 hours multi sector, also HRE/JNB?PER which went over 14 hours he also mentioned a couple of others that i have forgotten.
If we have to do a NYC shuttle i have asked the FAAA to get the sleep specialist that did a fatigue study for the pilots to do one on this sector.
LEE LAM from the Union said that they would get a report from him.....i will reserve my judgement till i hear a bit more i guess i am not in a hurry to make a decision...
Thanks for all the discussion on here. It's clear that there are at least 2 ppl on here at least who have quite different views.
I was talking to an FAAA official last week and asked about whether this was a precedent for anything that Qantas might want in the future.
His response was that its no more a precedent than any other "without Prejudice" agreement that the unions reaches with QAntas.
Evidently its common practice and has been done by the union for many many year by the previous and current officials.
He said the AICCA and then FAAA gave dispensations ofr SYD/SIN/SGN coz of fuel probs and that went over 14 hours multi sector, also HRE/JNB?PER which went over 14 hours he also mentioned a couple of others that i have forgotten.
If we have to do a NYC shuttle i have asked the FAAA to get the sleep specialist that did a fatigue study for the pilots to do one on this sector.
LEE LAM from the Union said that they would get a report from him.....i will reserve my judgement till i hear a bit more i guess i am not in a hurry to make a decision...
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big picture.........?
Pegasus747,
Quote- "If we have to do a NYC shuttle i have asked the FAAA to get the sleep specialist that did a fatigue study for the pilots to do one on this sector."
Refreshing to see some people have an ability to look at the issue which is of course, the sector itself.
It would seem from posts pushing for the dispensation that dixon scare campaign is working.
The FAAA seem to be running scared since dixon's statement before Christmas that the FAAA were inflexible and difficult to deal with.
Remember if you will, that dixon's expertise and history is in marketing.
A field where "smoke and mirrors" are used to sell ideas, products and the like.
Perhaps some consideration ought to be given to the success of some of dixon's initiatives and whether his threats are real or just more spin designed to extract concessions.
Australian Airlines- Next to nothing in the way of brand recognition/status. The airline was going to have CC bases all over Australia if dixon's spin was to be believed and yet with countless millions in cross subsidies from QF and more from the Malaysian government the best they achieved this year was an $11 million dollar loss.
The fact is that CC at Australian don't earn much less than us mainline longhaulers.
Would QF have achieved a better result with it's better brand power and high yield J/C seats.............?
The LHR base- Where do we start????
Cost blowouts due to-
* high sickleave with Thais slipping for 5 days in LHR to cover the shortfall.
*Unforseen [in typical QF style] flight duty limitations that have LHR based CC flying rosters below those of it's Australian based crew.
*Three and four day slips for LHR based crew are far in excess of what would occur if the base didn't exist and was done by Australian based crew.
Service failures- I wont even go there.
Shorthaul operating internationally-
Reports suggest that the novelty has well and truly worn off with our "domestic" friends. It seems that the long meal services, long days, overnights, jettlag and lack of allowances is leaving most of the international flying to the contractors.
People chose shorthaul for a reason.
Because as a domestic they can have a family and a life and still be home at night in there own beds.
Reports from longhaul language speakers operating with them confirm that service standards are more than a little lacking due to inexperience and the differences in culture that CLEARLY exist.
I find it VERY doubtful that the domestics will be up for more of what we do especially from a group who traditionally considered PER-SYD "red eyes" arduous!!
[WHO IS GETTING THE MUMBAIS WHEN THEY GO TO THE A330]
I'll miss the chicken tikka masala at Leopolds and maybe the masala dosa for breakfast but thats about it. The domestics wont know whats hit them.
The KIWIS-
Overworked, underpaid and overthere.
60 so far have left this year to work for an airline where than can have a life. More are awaiting call ups for interviews so even more set to go.
Last year saw QF scraping the bottom of the barrell for suitable candidates across the pond.
There can't be too many more Australians prepared to move there to get a gig as a meal service machine.
The Thais-
Cheap, hardworking and getting VERY bolshy which is a shame given that their nature was what made them special.
Trust QF to kill the goose that laid the golden egg by giving the Thais "assertiveness training". Talk about CLUELESS!!
They do for the most part smile in the cabin but they offer nothing in the way of conversation to our passengers and are en masse,visibly not the "Spirit of Australia".
Rumour has it that they wont be replaced as they leave.
Jetstar Asia- Early days but so far an abject failure.
Check out the D&G forum for details.
Jetstar Heavy-
Sure there is a niche market for charter style longhaul operations but sticking pins in ones eyes is never going to catch on in a big way with the masses.
Four or five hours is the max flight time before people expect and need the comforts of a full service carrier.
I personally think it's more a threat than a reality.
Australian hasn't worked so why would jetstar??
More dispensations have been alluded to for us.
In granting them we need to consider them on their merits.
Not with fear that we'll be sacked, wound down or sidestepped.
We do what we do, better than and with less crew than most. In doing so we are a valuable asset that cant, even in this political climate be replaced at the drop of a hat.
Give concessions on their merits only and NOT AT THE BARRELL OF A GUN.
We made another record profit last financial year in case anyone has forgotten.
Jettlager
Quote- "If we have to do a NYC shuttle i have asked the FAAA to get the sleep specialist that did a fatigue study for the pilots to do one on this sector."
Refreshing to see some people have an ability to look at the issue which is of course, the sector itself.
It would seem from posts pushing for the dispensation that dixon scare campaign is working.
The FAAA seem to be running scared since dixon's statement before Christmas that the FAAA were inflexible and difficult to deal with.
Remember if you will, that dixon's expertise and history is in marketing.
A field where "smoke and mirrors" are used to sell ideas, products and the like.
Perhaps some consideration ought to be given to the success of some of dixon's initiatives and whether his threats are real or just more spin designed to extract concessions.
Australian Airlines- Next to nothing in the way of brand recognition/status. The airline was going to have CC bases all over Australia if dixon's spin was to be believed and yet with countless millions in cross subsidies from QF and more from the Malaysian government the best they achieved this year was an $11 million dollar loss.
The fact is that CC at Australian don't earn much less than us mainline longhaulers.
Would QF have achieved a better result with it's better brand power and high yield J/C seats.............?
The LHR base- Where do we start????
Cost blowouts due to-
* high sickleave with Thais slipping for 5 days in LHR to cover the shortfall.
*Unforseen [in typical QF style] flight duty limitations that have LHR based CC flying rosters below those of it's Australian based crew.
*Three and four day slips for LHR based crew are far in excess of what would occur if the base didn't exist and was done by Australian based crew.
Service failures- I wont even go there.
Shorthaul operating internationally-
Reports suggest that the novelty has well and truly worn off with our "domestic" friends. It seems that the long meal services, long days, overnights, jettlag and lack of allowances is leaving most of the international flying to the contractors.
People chose shorthaul for a reason.
Because as a domestic they can have a family and a life and still be home at night in there own beds.
Reports from longhaul language speakers operating with them confirm that service standards are more than a little lacking due to inexperience and the differences in culture that CLEARLY exist.
I find it VERY doubtful that the domestics will be up for more of what we do especially from a group who traditionally considered PER-SYD "red eyes" arduous!!
[WHO IS GETTING THE MUMBAIS WHEN THEY GO TO THE A330]
I'll miss the chicken tikka masala at Leopolds and maybe the masala dosa for breakfast but thats about it. The domestics wont know whats hit them.
The KIWIS-
Overworked, underpaid and overthere.
60 so far have left this year to work for an airline where than can have a life. More are awaiting call ups for interviews so even more set to go.
Last year saw QF scraping the bottom of the barrell for suitable candidates across the pond.
There can't be too many more Australians prepared to move there to get a gig as a meal service machine.
The Thais-
Cheap, hardworking and getting VERY bolshy which is a shame given that their nature was what made them special.
Trust QF to kill the goose that laid the golden egg by giving the Thais "assertiveness training". Talk about CLUELESS!!
They do for the most part smile in the cabin but they offer nothing in the way of conversation to our passengers and are en masse,visibly not the "Spirit of Australia".
Rumour has it that they wont be replaced as they leave.
Jetstar Asia- Early days but so far an abject failure.
Check out the D&G forum for details.
Jetstar Heavy-
Sure there is a niche market for charter style longhaul operations but sticking pins in ones eyes is never going to catch on in a big way with the masses.
Four or five hours is the max flight time before people expect and need the comforts of a full service carrier.
I personally think it's more a threat than a reality.
Australian hasn't worked so why would jetstar??
More dispensations have been alluded to for us.
In granting them we need to consider them on their merits.
Not with fear that we'll be sacked, wound down or sidestepped.
We do what we do, better than and with less crew than most. In doing so we are a valuable asset that cant, even in this political climate be replaced at the drop of a hat.
Give concessions on their merits only and NOT AT THE BARRELL OF A GUN.
We made another record profit last financial year in case anyone has forgotten.
Jettlager
Last edited by jettlager; 4th Sep 2005 at 23:03.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: feet on the ground
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hear , hear
well said jettlagger, maybe if you put a figure on this GD and Co have wasted aroung 100 million plus.and some additional decisions which cost qf a bundle (read on of my previous thread) lets see how much bonus they get for it. as i keep saying qf crew are cheap on an international level. just ask kylie from her experience in ba. some here keep peddling the line we are the most expensive in the qantas group. that may be so but the unions helped set up cheaper labor in subsidereis and negotiated our current/past conditions. pegasus you mentioned the faaa getting a report from a fatigue specialist. i only hope the faaa is going to publish it to its members.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: baxter
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jett,
You're right about the thai's being hardworking but even more so about them becoming "bolshy".
Who was the idiot that gave them assertive training, On my last flight there was endless trouble from two of them.
Bolshy was an understatement!
However having said all that, I'd rather have a thai working with me than a kiwi, in a work sense 1 Thai equals= 4 kiwis.
You're right about the thai's being hardworking but even more so about them becoming "bolshy".
Who was the idiot that gave them assertive training, On my last flight there was endless trouble from two of them.
Bolshy was an understatement!
However having said all that, I'd rather have a thai working with me than a kiwi, in a work sense 1 Thai equals= 4 kiwis.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Who was the idiot that gave them [the Thais] assertive training"
Could be any one of the numbnuts in the office that know nothing about anything operational.
Can't blame them I suppose when the only advice they receive comes from the dysfunctional, ladder climbing, fourth floor dwelling, brown nosing "fear of flying club".
Could be any one of the numbnuts in the office that know nothing about anything operational.
Can't blame them I suppose when the only advice they receive comes from the dysfunctional, ladder climbing, fourth floor dwelling, brown nosing "fear of flying club".
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the milkyway galaxy
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF UK Cabin Crew Wages
Hello,
Can anyone let me know what the base wage is for a QF F/A based in UK.
Also how much flying do you get and how much extra do you make in allowances per month?
All help appreciated.
thanks
Can anyone let me know what the base wage is for a QF F/A based in UK.
Also how much flying do you get and how much extra do you make in allowances per month?
All help appreciated.
thanks
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jettlager
On page 23, you invited Guardian 1 to
Permit me to provide you (and others) with some gratuitous legal advice on defamation.
You are certainly free to express the opinions of others as communicated to you. But you are not free to breach any copyright or other intellectual property interest held by another party. If you do, you may be sued.
And if you communicate or publish material to another party that lowers a person’s personal, professional trade or business reputation in the estimation of the average person in the street, then you run the risk of being sued for defamation in all Australian jurisdictions.
Where the person isn’t named, the test which decides whether the words used refer to him/her is whether the words used are such as would reasonably lead persons acquainted with the subject to believe he/she was the person referred to.
The author of material who communicates it electronically, such as via an electronic bulletin board, is deemed to have communicated or published it, and will be liable if the material is defamatory.
Subject to the defence of innocent distribution, any other person, such as PPRuNe, who intentionally or negligently takes part in, or authorises the publication of material, is said to have published it and is liable to be sued for defamation as well.
The ACT is the most generous jurisdiction in Australia in awarding damages for defamation. Just ask Tony Abbott, Peter Costello and Bob Ellis. Don't forget the legal costs involved; usually paid by the loser, that is two sets of costs. And PPRuNe is capable of being accessed in the ACT.
On page 23, you invited Guardian 1 to
do some reading on defamation laws.
You are certainly free to express the opinions of others as communicated to you. But you are not free to breach any copyright or other intellectual property interest held by another party. If you do, you may be sued.
And if you communicate or publish material to another party that lowers a person’s personal, professional trade or business reputation in the estimation of the average person in the street, then you run the risk of being sued for defamation in all Australian jurisdictions.
Where the person isn’t named, the test which decides whether the words used refer to him/her is whether the words used are such as would reasonably lead persons acquainted with the subject to believe he/she was the person referred to.
The author of material who communicates it electronically, such as via an electronic bulletin board, is deemed to have communicated or published it, and will be liable if the material is defamatory.
Subject to the defence of innocent distribution, any other person, such as PPRuNe, who intentionally or negligently takes part in, or authorises the publication of material, is said to have published it and is liable to be sued for defamation as well.
The ACT is the most generous jurisdiction in Australia in awarding damages for defamation. Just ask Tony Abbott, Peter Costello and Bob Ellis. Don't forget the legal costs involved; usually paid by the loser, that is two sets of costs. And PPRuNe is capable of being accessed in the ACT.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Argus,
[yawns, stretches and farts]
-----------------
The following is a cut and paste from the QFUK thread on this forum.
Purportedly from a QFUKer and makes excellent reading
Definately not true!
£18k basic, we wish.
The basic for UK crew is £12,000 then you get sector pay and allowances during slip times (paid in cash to you, when you check in at hotel).
I am taking home around £1050-1100 per month after tax. Plus around £100 per week in allowances. Don't forget you spend the allowances in port to buy food etc. So you can't relie on them to boost your take home pay too much.
The rosters are a joke. We work upto 240hrs per 8 week period. That doesn't sound too bad but once you start flying back to back long range to Asia you soon realise that the human body cannot do that sort of flying without getting sick. Just one reason why sick leave is very high at the base.
Also, although you are given a roster the whole thing can change at any minute due to having 'Available' days randomly inserted throughout. So you cannot plan anything, because your whole roster could change.
If you have flown before you will find yourself training all the brand new people and not being paid or appreciated for your efforts. The training for new crew seems to have been appaling because I always seem to be 'mopping' up after them. A lot of the cabin supervisors and managers are ex short haul from Australia and seem to have no idea about long haul operations and have even less idea about how to treat employees decently. Same thing goes for the base management.
Poor pay, too many hours, exhausting flying patterns, being treated like crap by management, whole base poorly managed by someone with a 'Sales' background i.e. no idea about how crew work = Very low moral and many staff being interviewed for other airlines.
If you haven't flown before it could be a foot in the door to something better later one. But otherwise I would stay well away from Qantas UK.
[yawns, stretches and farts]
-----------------
The following is a cut and paste from the QFUK thread on this forum.
Purportedly from a QFUKer and makes excellent reading
Definately not true!
£18k basic, we wish.
The basic for UK crew is £12,000 then you get sector pay and allowances during slip times (paid in cash to you, when you check in at hotel).
I am taking home around £1050-1100 per month after tax. Plus around £100 per week in allowances. Don't forget you spend the allowances in port to buy food etc. So you can't relie on them to boost your take home pay too much.
The rosters are a joke. We work upto 240hrs per 8 week period. That doesn't sound too bad but once you start flying back to back long range to Asia you soon realise that the human body cannot do that sort of flying without getting sick. Just one reason why sick leave is very high at the base.
Also, although you are given a roster the whole thing can change at any minute due to having 'Available' days randomly inserted throughout. So you cannot plan anything, because your whole roster could change.
If you have flown before you will find yourself training all the brand new people and not being paid or appreciated for your efforts. The training for new crew seems to have been appaling because I always seem to be 'mopping' up after them. A lot of the cabin supervisors and managers are ex short haul from Australia and seem to have no idea about long haul operations and have even less idea about how to treat employees decently. Same thing goes for the base management.
Poor pay, too many hours, exhausting flying patterns, being treated like crap by management, whole base poorly managed by someone with a 'Sales' background i.e. no idea about how crew work = Very low moral and many staff being interviewed for other airlines.
If you haven't flown before it could be a foot in the door to something better later one. But otherwise I would stay well away from Qantas UK.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southern Hemisphere
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peed my pants
Finally some truth and honesty about the LHR base from an insider.
Dixon`s little London Experiment is a disaster.
How to destroy a brand in one easy lesson..just ask Goof Dixon
This is the premium QF Route...QF 1..More like minus one.
Even a robber`s dog could have seen this coming.
Spin doctoring please...I need another good laugh
Dixon`s little London Experiment is a disaster.
How to destroy a brand in one easy lesson..just ask Goof Dixon
This is the premium QF Route...QF 1..More like minus one.
Even a robber`s dog could have seen this coming.
Spin doctoring please...I need another good laugh
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
qflhr
Can you give us an insight of what it's like on board the flights. How are the meal services running? We hear flights out of HKG & SIN are leaving short crewed because crew are going sick upline. What's the feedback from the passengers like?
Can you give us an insight of what it's like on board the flights. How are the meal services running? We hear flights out of HKG & SIN are leaving short crewed because crew are going sick upline. What's the feedback from the passengers like?
Last edited by Pro Golfer 69; 5th Sep 2005 at 11:40.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: in a tight slot
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dixon`s Timing
Around about the time that Dixon`s decisions show signs of unravelling he will have just left.
Grant, Hassell and a few others will follow.(read escape)
The poor Devils jockeying for his position will be given a poison chalice.
The QF brand will have lost most of its integrity.
Jetstar Asia will almost certainly have gone belly up
Australian Airlines will have been folded into Jetstar Australia
Profits will be on the downslide.
QF will have the oldest fleet in the world.
The poor choice of aircraft for particular routes will present a nightmare.
The service will have gone even further down the toilet because of cost cutting.(The QF bus service)
Qantas will have become a poor airline and an even poorer business
Goof Dixon will be propping up the bar in a pub he has bought with his bonuses.
The share price will be around $A 2.80
Thank you Geoffrey Richard Dixon...history will not treat you kindly
Grant, Hassell and a few others will follow.(read escape)
The poor Devils jockeying for his position will be given a poison chalice.
The QF brand will have lost most of its integrity.
Jetstar Asia will almost certainly have gone belly up
Australian Airlines will have been folded into Jetstar Australia
Profits will be on the downslide.
QF will have the oldest fleet in the world.
The poor choice of aircraft for particular routes will present a nightmare.
The service will have gone even further down the toilet because of cost cutting.(The QF bus service)
Qantas will have become a poor airline and an even poorer business
Goof Dixon will be propping up the bar in a pub he has bought with his bonuses.
The share price will be around $A 2.80
Thank you Geoffrey Richard Dixon...history will not treat you kindly
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the milkyway galaxy
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks everyone for you input. It doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence. I am currently employed by QF in HR in SYD. I have wanted to be a F/A for a while now and with a desire to move to the UK I thought it would be a good thing.
I too have only heard how successful the whole UK F/A base has been, having helped with it in a very small way I'm surprised to hear the truth. I appreciate all the information you guys & gals have supplied. I still want to try out though. Not sure what my chances will be though, considering I'm in SYD and the jobs in the UK. I do have an EU passport so hopefully it may help.
Has anyone who has the job applied from SYD???
Once again thanks heaps, I'll keep you posted.
I too have only heard how successful the whole UK F/A base has been, having helped with it in a very small way I'm surprised to hear the truth. I appreciate all the information you guys & gals have supplied. I still want to try out though. Not sure what my chances will be though, considering I'm in SYD and the jobs in the UK. I do have an EU passport so hopefully it may help.
Has anyone who has the job applied from SYD???
Once again thanks heaps, I'll keep you posted.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight bunny
Who said your hearing the truth ???
Just sounds like an individual is not happy here to me !! - I have recently joined QF UK and I have flown before and I can say that the training here in the UK is fantastic - the trainers all Aussies by the way have flown up to do EP and the service training is also goo from what I can see...
I have also had contact with all the managment team and I can again honestly say That They are all open and listen ...Cant fault them at all.....
But as they say if you dont like it leave - it seems the people with the gripes are the one's that bring morale down not the company - get rid of those and all will be well....
Just sounds like an individual is not happy here to me !! - I have recently joined QF UK and I have flown before and I can say that the training here in the UK is fantastic - the trainers all Aussies by the way have flown up to do EP and the service training is also goo from what I can see...
I have also had contact with all the managment team and I can again honestly say That They are all open and listen ...Cant fault them at all.....
But as they say if you dont like it leave - it seems the people with the gripes are the one's that bring morale down not the company - get rid of those and all will be well....
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
short haul training long haul crew.....its so you can throw the meals out faster with a false smile and have more time in the bunk!
Its all a plan for when long haul and short haul merge.....either that or we all work for Jetstar International!
Quick question to anyone who knows, why do shorthaul have no idea who a CSS is? I know CSS's arent used in shorthaul ops, but are they not referred to in documentation regarding chain of command at EPs etc? My understanding is that a Long haul CSS is roughly equivalent to a short haul CSM. Obviously this starts blurring a bit when they do regional flying.
Its all a plan for when long haul and short haul merge.....either that or we all work for Jetstar International!
Quick question to anyone who knows, why do shorthaul have no idea who a CSS is? I know CSS's arent used in shorthaul ops, but are they not referred to in documentation regarding chain of command at EPs etc? My understanding is that a Long haul CSS is roughly equivalent to a short haul CSM. Obviously this starts blurring a bit when they do regional flying.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PP - I don't know who you are? PM and let me know.
And what do you mean by 'why you are not flying?' - I am flying, please expand???
Go back to Australia, I have never been there! Was hoping to do training there but ended up at BA's training centre.
And what do you mean by 'why you are not flying?' - I am flying, please expand???
Go back to Australia, I have never been there! Was hoping to do training there but ended up at BA's training centre.
Last edited by qflhr; 5th Sep 2005 at 19:00.