EBA & IR Issues in Australia (Not for those easily offended!)
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RaverFlaver,
It does not really matter what you are talking in regard to how AO manage their cabin and what your crew ratio is compared to Longhaul or any other airline...you have just lost millions of dollars and I expect will soon be wearing a different uniform..end of story
Have a good day
It does not really matter what you are talking in regard to how AO manage their cabin and what your crew ratio is compared to Longhaul or any other airline...you have just lost millions of dollars and I expect will soon be wearing a different uniform..end of story
Have a good day
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"-----------as we know pilots still run qf."
Astute observation qcc2.
We all know what happened to the pilot/s who "parked" OJH onto the 4th Fairway in BKK.
Yet flight attendants are intimidated/demeaned and victimised for reading magazines in a Galley on a 14 hr sector-go figure !!!!!!
Astute observation qcc2.
We all know what happened to the pilot/s who "parked" OJH onto the 4th Fairway in BKK.
Yet flight attendants are intimidated/demeaned and victimised for reading magazines in a Galley on a 14 hr sector-go figure !!!!!!
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Lowerlobe,
You are correct, we did make a loss.
However that loss that we made was subsatantially less than what QF would have lost if they had been flying the routes. With the loss that we made, we actually helped contribute to the record profit of the QF Group.
Night,
RaverFlaver
You are correct, we did make a loss.
However that loss that we made was subsatantially less than what QF would have lost if they had been flying the routes. With the loss that we made, we actually helped contribute to the record profit of the QF Group.
Night,
RaverFlaver
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Raver
Flawed logic there.
You mean 5 day slips in Sabah are more profitable than anything QF could have done?
If that's how a low cost airline operates, then what's Jetstar doing wrong?
Flawed logic there.
You mean 5 day slips in Sabah are more profitable than anything QF could have done?
If that's how a low cost airline operates, then what's Jetstar doing wrong?
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RaverFlaver,
"With the loss that we made, we actually helped contribute to the record profit of the QF Group".
What an incredible statement....
I wonder what sort of maths you did at school,if you did any at all. Your household budget must be a ripper
You cannot critisise another airline's procedures when your own airline is making a loss
You miss my point though, So you are saying that even with making a loss , AO is an asset to the Qantas group.
Imagine the increase in The group profit,if it had just closed AO down and not flown any aircraft to your destinations.!!!
No wonder GD insisted on those preconditions in your EBA,I think you are about to have yet another change of uniform.
GD learned from his mistakes in starting up AO and the changes were called Jetstar
"With the loss that we made, we actually helped contribute to the record profit of the QF Group".
What an incredible statement....
I wonder what sort of maths you did at school,if you did any at all. Your household budget must be a ripper
You cannot critisise another airline's procedures when your own airline is making a loss
You miss my point though, So you are saying that even with making a loss , AO is an asset to the Qantas group.
Imagine the increase in The group profit,if it had just closed AO down and not flown any aircraft to your destinations.!!!
No wonder GD insisted on those preconditions in your EBA,I think you are about to have yet another change of uniform.
GD learned from his mistakes in starting up AO and the changes were called Jetstar
Last edited by lowerlobe; 31st Aug 2005 at 13:26.
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what!!!!!
Oh come on Raver, surely you cannot be serious about that statement!
I had such a good laugh!
Its the thought of that orange shirt, isn't it!
Dont worry it will go well with the jacket!
I had such a good laugh!
Its the thought of that orange shirt, isn't it!
Dont worry it will go well with the jacket!
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Lowerlobe,
So I'm not allowed to comment on any other airline, because the airline I work for made a loss? Whatever happend to freedom of speech? And since when did you become dictator?
In terms of us flying to Bali, Hong Kong and Singapore we are cheaper to send there than what it would be to send a QF a/c. Lots of QF FF use us to use their points on. So if you think about it, we are saving the QF group $$$$ by flying there. Not rokcet science.
Mr Seatback, as the Sabah route was not profitable, we no longer fly there. That route was an attempt to see if there was a sustainable destination that could be held. So not sure how that is really relevant now? If we were still flying there now, then I think you may have a valid point. And yes 5 day slips there would have been cheaper than sending QF there. Factors being given QF FF another option on holiday destinations to burn their points on a cheaper operator, higher paid crew and no return catering.
Cheers,
RaverFlaver
So I'm not allowed to comment on any other airline, because the airline I work for made a loss? Whatever happend to freedom of speech? And since when did you become dictator?
In terms of us flying to Bali, Hong Kong and Singapore we are cheaper to send there than what it would be to send a QF a/c. Lots of QF FF use us to use their points on. So if you think about it, we are saving the QF group $$$$ by flying there. Not rokcet science.
Mr Seatback, as the Sabah route was not profitable, we no longer fly there. That route was an attempt to see if there was a sustainable destination that could be held. So not sure how that is really relevant now? If we were still flying there now, then I think you may have a valid point. And yes 5 day slips there would have been cheaper than sending QF there. Factors being given QF FF another option on holiday destinations to burn their points on a cheaper operator, higher paid crew and no return catering.
Cheers,
RaverFlaver
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RaverFlaver,
Have you ever heard of the phrase
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
If your own airline is not making a profit you cannot critisise another airline for it's procedures.
If you were doing better than us,then I would be only too happy to listen
Have you ever heard of the phrase
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
If your own airline is not making a profit you cannot critisise another airline for it's procedures.
If you were doing better than us,then I would be only too happy to listen
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QCC2 & Wed Webbing Loop,
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." And how expensive are you f/a's compared to other crew? $80 plus for a lot of f/a's in this company, with a few weeks in the classroom and off you go. $100 for a newbie s/o, who has had to do a couple of years of intense study (which costs nearly $100g anyhow), obtain and keep a licence, and who has done a lot of experience out in the bush in most cases earning next to nothing. Who is the most overpaid (not to mention who has more responsibility)?
Before you go blasting other employee groups with regards to their levels of pay, have a close look in your own backyard. 80 grand plus p/a for someone with no skills or qualifications, just a few weeks training, is well above what a lot of other skilled professionals make. Fight to keep your conditions, but don't go down the path of trying to degenerate others.
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." And how expensive are you f/a's compared to other crew? $80 plus for a lot of f/a's in this company, with a few weeks in the classroom and off you go. $100 for a newbie s/o, who has had to do a couple of years of intense study (which costs nearly $100g anyhow), obtain and keep a licence, and who has done a lot of experience out in the bush in most cases earning next to nothing. Who is the most overpaid (not to mention who has more responsibility)?
Before you go blasting other employee groups with regards to their levels of pay, have a close look in your own backyard. 80 grand plus p/a for someone with no skills or qualifications, just a few weeks training, is well above what a lot of other skilled professionals make. Fight to keep your conditions, but don't go down the path of trying to degenerate others.
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Proud.....?
I don`t understand how anyone one can be proud of being CHEAP.This means you are being paid less than others who are doing the same job.
Don`t you have a mortgage,a car,a partner,children?.A need to buy groceries and clothes?
The more money you earn the better your quality of life.
You are being done over and are enjoying it.
That`s weird!!
Don`t you have a mortgage,a car,a partner,children?.A need to buy groceries and clothes?
The more money you earn the better your quality of life.
You are being done over and are enjoying it.
That`s weird!!
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Labia vortex,
That was excellent, well put.
I never thought of it like that, why in the hell would you be so proud of being so cheap.
Can you please answer that one Raver?
Big Barrells.
I understand youre point and its true that we should always try and better our conditions and not to denegrate others, but don't go on about the fact that pilots have "more responsibility" as you will start a war and everyone has been down that path!
The fact is reponsibility is divided in different ways and on different grounds amongst the aircraft.
As I have stated before in my posts, I hope that the S/haul EBA is a good one and the same applies for the pilots, the minute one group in QF starts to sell itself out and the others will follow.
Get my point!
That was excellent, well put.
I never thought of it like that, why in the hell would you be so proud of being so cheap.
Can you please answer that one Raver?
Big Barrells.
I understand youre point and its true that we should always try and better our conditions and not to denegrate others, but don't go on about the fact that pilots have "more responsibility" as you will start a war and everyone has been down that path!
The fact is reponsibility is divided in different ways and on different grounds amongst the aircraft.
As I have stated before in my posts, I hope that the S/haul EBA is a good one and the same applies for the pilots, the minute one group in QF starts to sell itself out and the others will follow.
Get my point!
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Big Barrels,
I think that since you were not talking about sexual behavior or the break down of organic matter, you meant denigrate not degenerate but then since you studied intensely for a number of years or so you would know that.
Cabin Crew do not earn $80 pa after just a few weeks work but what they do have to do in some circumstances is clean up the mess left by those whom you said have more responsibility. One example of this is the world’s most expensive golf cart in Bangkok.
Just a few weeks ago ,an Air France Cabin Crew not only saved hundreds of lives but also Air France tens of millions if not billions of dollars ( in legal fees and reputation ) in just 90 seconds after mistakes were made by the highly trained and paid flight crew .
It is very easy to ridicule and simplify other people’s jobs and responsibility, so as you have quoted “People in glass houses should not throw stones”.
As has been said let's not turn this into a Cabin crew/Tech crew issue ,we all know who our common enemy is and let's take that on instead.
I think that since you were not talking about sexual behavior or the break down of organic matter, you meant denigrate not degenerate but then since you studied intensely for a number of years or so you would know that.
Cabin Crew do not earn $80 pa after just a few weeks work but what they do have to do in some circumstances is clean up the mess left by those whom you said have more responsibility. One example of this is the world’s most expensive golf cart in Bangkok.
Just a few weeks ago ,an Air France Cabin Crew not only saved hundreds of lives but also Air France tens of millions if not billions of dollars ( in legal fees and reputation ) in just 90 seconds after mistakes were made by the highly trained and paid flight crew .
It is very easy to ridicule and simplify other people’s jobs and responsibility, so as you have quoted “People in glass houses should not throw stones”.
As has been said let's not turn this into a Cabin crew/Tech crew issue ,we all know who our common enemy is and let's take that on instead.
Last edited by RedTBar; 1st Sep 2005 at 00:28.
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Raver,
In response to the following:
Sabah was not profitable for a number of reasons - NOT LEAST OF WHICH was paying for 10 crew to spend 5 days in a holiday destination = 5 x nights accommodation, transfers + 5 x nights of allowances!
Given that aircraft utilisation is the buzzword of low cost airlines, it wasn't a wise way to use your aircraft or its' crew.
Notice how QF barely get two nights rest on some patterns now...sure, QF are more expensive, but they can afford to be.
The days of your airline doing multi-day slips (or for that matter, ANY airline these days), are numbered.
Re: 'giving QF FF another option on holiday destinations to burn their points'...
Raver... Geoffy baby doesn't want frequent fliers to burn their points! Why else would he be making it harder for them do to so!
AND - I've yet to see a CEO of any airline subsidise the operation of any airline route for the sole enjoyment of frequent flyers, who provide the airline with no cashflow or operating profit!
This isn't about the customer - it's about the business. Always will be.
There will be some major changes afoot at your airline Raver. Be prepared.
In response to the following:
"Mr Seatback, as the Sabah route was not profitable, we no longer fly there. That route was an attempt to see if there was a sustainable destination that could be held. So not sure how that is really relevant now? If we were still flying there now, then I think you may have a valid point. And yes 5 day slips there would have been cheaper than sending QF there. Factors being given QF FF another option on holiday destinations to burn their points on a cheaper operator, higher paid crew and no return catering."
Given that aircraft utilisation is the buzzword of low cost airlines, it wasn't a wise way to use your aircraft or its' crew.
Notice how QF barely get two nights rest on some patterns now...sure, QF are more expensive, but they can afford to be.
The days of your airline doing multi-day slips (or for that matter, ANY airline these days), are numbered.
Re: 'giving QF FF another option on holiday destinations to burn their points'...
Raver... Geoffy baby doesn't want frequent fliers to burn their points! Why else would he be making it harder for them do to so!
AND - I've yet to see a CEO of any airline subsidise the operation of any airline route for the sole enjoyment of frequent flyers, who provide the airline with no cashflow or operating profit!
This isn't about the customer - it's about the business. Always will be.
There will be some major changes afoot at your airline Raver. Be prepared.
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spin doctors coming
GD will have to find a very good spin doctor explaining the failure of AO to the market. thats on top of the losses incurred by jetstar asia and the extra money thrown at them to merge and survive in the near future. not to forget the a330-200 mistakes. and lets not forget the 100 million refurbishing the classics (one is still parked at avalon with no engines) which led to real improvement in customer satisfaction wherever they go.
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FYI the Malaysian government heavily subsidised the Sabah routes in order to promote tourism to the area. This is why AO were even doing the route in the first place!
Once the subsidies ended, AO reassessed the sectors and established that they wouldn't make any or enough profits, so they cut the sector. It's pretty straightforward stuff.
What you did say that was 100% correct Mr Seatback 2; is that it is about the business. This is absolutely true.
Low cost airlines are not really low cost for the passenger, but for the airline! If there is a high demand for leisure travellers on a sector and a low business traveller demand then they will use their LCC to fly the route. Makes economic sense.
Same applies if it's cheaper to use SH crew as opposed to LH. Since all of the divisions are separate, each is looking after themselves, and this may or may not be to the detriment of other divisions. Get over it. Everyone is looking after themselves here, including every single person that has posted on this thread so far.
SG
Once the subsidies ended, AO reassessed the sectors and established that they wouldn't make any or enough profits, so they cut the sector. It's pretty straightforward stuff.
What you did say that was 100% correct Mr Seatback 2; is that it is about the business. This is absolutely true.
Low cost airlines are not really low cost for the passenger, but for the airline! If there is a high demand for leisure travellers on a sector and a low business traveller demand then they will use their LCC to fly the route. Makes economic sense.
Same applies if it's cheaper to use SH crew as opposed to LH. Since all of the divisions are separate, each is looking after themselves, and this may or may not be to the detriment of other divisions. Get over it. Everyone is looking after themselves here, including every single person that has posted on this thread so far.
SG
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Guardian1
There are two parts to my response, firstly, the issue of the JFK dispensation and secondly, the performance of the faaa.
I will post the JFK issue here and respond to the latter part at a later date.
Since you obviously are unable to understand the premise of my argument, I’ll keep this simple so you might understand it.
The Faaa and Qantas are asking that we grant dispensation so to save money on accommodation in New York .On the surface this might sound reasonable but if you look at the problem a little closer, their argument is full of holes
1: The slips in LA have increased and in fact one slip has increased to 85 hours, so instead of a 2 , 1 , 1 slip on an old JFK trip you now have at a minimum , 2 nights in LA and then another 2 nights in LA at the end of the JFK transit. So you have both trips with 4 night’s accommodation. With the allowances in New York and LA being almost identical, there is nothing being saved here.
2: Instead of the Tour of Duty being 14.35, the average is actually closer to 16 hours and in a number of cases closer to 17 hours. This means for each crew member, 2 hours at Overtime 1 and at least 2 hours at overtime 2. Basically, at even the most junior FA’s rate of pay a total of 7.5 hours pay which say at a minimum of $30 / hour, a cost of $225.00.
If you look at the hourly rate for the CSM and CSS and other senior crew, a lot more than that.
3: If you assume that the AKL crews are cheaper to use than SYD based crew, then why are the company not using them to do the JFK shuttle? They do not need the faaa’s permission to use them and they would only have to give them one nights slip in LA either side of the shuttle plus no overtime making them a lot cheaper than us. Knowing how Qantas thinks, why don’t they use them? Even if we were stupid enough to grant them dispensation, what is to stop the company from replacing us with the AKL based crew once we have agreed to the dispensation?
I doubt that the cost of one night’s accommodation in New York being more than it is costing the company in extra payments, so why are they doing it?
It does not take a bush lawyer or a rocket scientist to see if this is not about saving money in New York, then the company has another agenda and that it requires us to grant dispensation.
If the company wants dispensation it can only be because it wants something down the line and we are being set up for a fall. I notice that Guardian 1 still has not said why he and the rest of the faaa will not seek independent legal advice and that concerns me as well but it is a huge worry that the company might have a legal argument to alter our rosters at a later date.
The faaa also stated in it’s newsletter dated 23 rd March 2005 that one of the conditions for granting temporary dispensation was that the TOD would be planned up to 14 .35 and it has exceeded that in virtually every case.
What does the faaa have to worry about with legal advice? It is prudent to consider this and to have a postal ballot on this issue not just a show of hands at a union meeting where it is impossible to get a true and democratic vote.
This is not about an uninformed stirrer with no idea of the EBA, it is about commonsense and not just listening to the usual intimidatory threats by the company that if we don’t accept their demands we will be replaced with foreign workers, since I doubt this is about savings in New York, I fear this is about something far more sinister to our conditions than just the JFK shuttle.
I challenge Guardian 1 and the rest of the faaa to publish a newsletter on the JFK issue with their points for the dispensation and my points against the dispensation.If you are interested in a balanced and fair debate on this issue then you will have no problems with this newsletter
There are two parts to my response, firstly, the issue of the JFK dispensation and secondly, the performance of the faaa.
I will post the JFK issue here and respond to the latter part at a later date.
Since you obviously are unable to understand the premise of my argument, I’ll keep this simple so you might understand it.
The Faaa and Qantas are asking that we grant dispensation so to save money on accommodation in New York .On the surface this might sound reasonable but if you look at the problem a little closer, their argument is full of holes
1: The slips in LA have increased and in fact one slip has increased to 85 hours, so instead of a 2 , 1 , 1 slip on an old JFK trip you now have at a minimum , 2 nights in LA and then another 2 nights in LA at the end of the JFK transit. So you have both trips with 4 night’s accommodation. With the allowances in New York and LA being almost identical, there is nothing being saved here.
2: Instead of the Tour of Duty being 14.35, the average is actually closer to 16 hours and in a number of cases closer to 17 hours. This means for each crew member, 2 hours at Overtime 1 and at least 2 hours at overtime 2. Basically, at even the most junior FA’s rate of pay a total of 7.5 hours pay which say at a minimum of $30 / hour, a cost of $225.00.
If you look at the hourly rate for the CSM and CSS and other senior crew, a lot more than that.
3: If you assume that the AKL crews are cheaper to use than SYD based crew, then why are the company not using them to do the JFK shuttle? They do not need the faaa’s permission to use them and they would only have to give them one nights slip in LA either side of the shuttle plus no overtime making them a lot cheaper than us. Knowing how Qantas thinks, why don’t they use them? Even if we were stupid enough to grant them dispensation, what is to stop the company from replacing us with the AKL based crew once we have agreed to the dispensation?
I doubt that the cost of one night’s accommodation in New York being more than it is costing the company in extra payments, so why are they doing it?
It does not take a bush lawyer or a rocket scientist to see if this is not about saving money in New York, then the company has another agenda and that it requires us to grant dispensation.
If the company wants dispensation it can only be because it wants something down the line and we are being set up for a fall. I notice that Guardian 1 still has not said why he and the rest of the faaa will not seek independent legal advice and that concerns me as well but it is a huge worry that the company might have a legal argument to alter our rosters at a later date.
The faaa also stated in it’s newsletter dated 23 rd March 2005 that one of the conditions for granting temporary dispensation was that the TOD would be planned up to 14 .35 and it has exceeded that in virtually every case.
What does the faaa have to worry about with legal advice? It is prudent to consider this and to have a postal ballot on this issue not just a show of hands at a union meeting where it is impossible to get a true and democratic vote.
This is not about an uninformed stirrer with no idea of the EBA, it is about commonsense and not just listening to the usual intimidatory threats by the company that if we don’t accept their demands we will be replaced with foreign workers, since I doubt this is about savings in New York, I fear this is about something far more sinister to our conditions than just the JFK shuttle.
I challenge Guardian 1 and the rest of the faaa to publish a newsletter on the JFK issue with their points for the dispensation and my points against the dispensation.If you are interested in a balanced and fair debate on this issue then you will have no problems with this newsletter
Last edited by RedTBar; 1st Sep 2005 at 02:41.
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RED T BAR
Love it, excellent, everything you stated is correct.
One fact stands out. If it was logistically possible they would put the AKL base crew on them.
What is there to stop them! if its cheaper QF will do it.
They are setting us up for something.
Yet the FAAA are peddling the company line!
Why are they pushing so hard for the dispensation?
Surely they can see that QF are up to something!
I hate the fact that the FAAA are using the defense, if we dont do it others will! let them have it.
I have always supported the FAAA, but not on this one!
I cannot fault red t bar one bit!
Guardian and warp will be back , abusing anyone that has a different opinion! you watch
Love it, excellent, everything you stated is correct.
One fact stands out. If it was logistically possible they would put the AKL base crew on them.
What is there to stop them! if its cheaper QF will do it.
They are setting us up for something.
Yet the FAAA are peddling the company line!
Why are they pushing so hard for the dispensation?
Surely they can see that QF are up to something!
I hate the fact that the FAAA are using the defense, if we dont do it others will! let them have it.
I have always supported the FAAA, but not on this one!
I cannot fault red t bar one bit!
Guardian and warp will be back , abusing anyone that has a different opinion! you watch
Last edited by OCCR; 1st Sep 2005 at 01:24.
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1. Mr Seatback - don't jump the gun regarding AO overnights. There were never any 5 night slips in Sabah - that is fabricated galley gossip. The longest slip was 3 nights.
Most overnights are ONE night, sometimes two. The Sabah (BKI ) route was subsidised by the Malaysian government hence our entry to the Borneo market.
2. Although AO have their own management - QF dictate where AO goes and what they do. They are big brother. Bali never made QF money because of everyone using FF points on the route. By us being a lower cost base airline the same pax are still flying to Bali but on AO where the costs of getting them there is made cheaper. So YES we have saved QF money because if they were still running mainline services ex SYD with QF crews and a/c the costs of catering, crew etc would naturally be HIGHER. Therefore the gap between the different costs to supply the product to DPS by AO/QF is where QF have saved money. ( And yes I still understand that AO made a loss but work with me here - reading between the lines is required to see where AO has helped QF )
Yes I am scared for my future - are the AO knockers happy now ? Having just gone through our terrible EBA process and receiving a letter from our CEO Andrea stating that Geoff Dixon says 'AO is still viable ' ' Don't worry ' etc - it is hard to believe who is telling the truth.
Will AO become the division that operates international flights on behalf of JQ international ?
Or...Will be become Qantas ? Our new EBA would provide QF with lots of flexibility. Will we be the next Jetconnect ? Qantas UK ?
Welcome aboard Jetstar International flight JQ666 to Honolulu. This is a Jetstar service operated by Australian Airlines on behalf of Qantas.
Most overnights are ONE night, sometimes two. The Sabah (BKI ) route was subsidised by the Malaysian government hence our entry to the Borneo market.
2. Although AO have their own management - QF dictate where AO goes and what they do. They are big brother. Bali never made QF money because of everyone using FF points on the route. By us being a lower cost base airline the same pax are still flying to Bali but on AO where the costs of getting them there is made cheaper. So YES we have saved QF money because if they were still running mainline services ex SYD with QF crews and a/c the costs of catering, crew etc would naturally be HIGHER. Therefore the gap between the different costs to supply the product to DPS by AO/QF is where QF have saved money. ( And yes I still understand that AO made a loss but work with me here - reading between the lines is required to see where AO has helped QF )
Yes I am scared for my future - are the AO knockers happy now ? Having just gone through our terrible EBA process and receiving a letter from our CEO Andrea stating that Geoff Dixon says 'AO is still viable ' ' Don't worry ' etc - it is hard to believe who is telling the truth.
Will AO become the division that operates international flights on behalf of JQ international ?
Or...Will be become Qantas ? Our new EBA would provide QF with lots of flexibility. Will we be the next Jetconnect ? Qantas UK ?
Welcome aboard Jetstar International flight JQ666 to Honolulu. This is a Jetstar service operated by Australian Airlines on behalf of Qantas.