BA cabin crews' futures
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BA cabin crews' futures
Joy Hordern had issued the initial phases of "serious" restructuring briefs for BA crews, notably longhaul. The main CC union has denounced such briefs, but cannot escape from the fact that for the company to survive BA crews WILL have to look at some sort of restructure in terms of pay and conditions.
While BASSA always claim to stand firm it cannot be ignored that their overall power and say on what goes on is pretty limited - Two of the past examples include the '97 strike - mangament won and introduced the new pay scales - and the crew compliments being reduced- again the reduction WAS implemented and is still effective. LGW shorthaul, while not "mainline" became the next 'serious cost cutting to survive' "victim" and LGW Worldwide will be the next phase in the plan towards a streamlined, cost effective and profitable operation. LHR is now within view of Joy Hordern!
The basics that people conveniently ignore is that flying is as cheap as chips nowadays and so the old ways simply cannot survive alongside the current fare price wars ...........
Harsh, but going to happen.
While BASSA always claim to stand firm it cannot be ignored that their overall power and say on what goes on is pretty limited - Two of the past examples include the '97 strike - mangament won and introduced the new pay scales - and the crew compliments being reduced- again the reduction WAS implemented and is still effective. LGW shorthaul, while not "mainline" became the next 'serious cost cutting to survive' "victim" and LGW Worldwide will be the next phase in the plan towards a streamlined, cost effective and profitable operation. LHR is now within view of Joy Hordern!
The basics that people conveniently ignore is that flying is as cheap as chips nowadays and so the old ways simply cannot survive alongside the current fare price wars ...........
Harsh, but going to happen.
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Times are a changing... and BA has to continue to streamline it's operation where possible...
But without beating on too much like a stuck record, for new entrant crew on new contracts these days, the salary is not what it once was... and more and more crew are finding it tough balancing the cost of life in London (can't get a mortgage, stuck renting a craphole, struggling to juggle high costs of running a car, blah blah, anyone crew or otherwise who lives in London knows the score)
And so bmi struggles desperately to get London based crew, to the point where they are bringing down Teeside or Leeds crew etc and nightstopping them in london for several nights and doing ex. LHR flying to Europe as they can't get enough numbers at LHR...
And now BA is also facing a tough time getting the calibre of candidates it wants in the current recruitment campaign....
So, times are a changing, but costs in London continue to soar, and so its hard to imagine if they can further lower the already 'paired back' new entrant contracts.....
I'm all for initiatives that save on admin and management costs, but I already give my life to BA with little or no control of my schedule for 21 days a month, so I'd be reluctant to give up further $$ and the work rules and T&C that we do have which goes a little way to preserving some kind of sanity in the whole thing....!
<steps down from soapbox, and awaits the inevitable barrage of tomato, egg and name throwing!>
Oh - and a quick addendum...
Last year, Easyjet was so in need of London based crew (and not finding them through the usual channels) that they employed the services of an external recruitment agency to find staff, offering them a salary not to far from BA's EF crew, AND paying for their accommodation in a hotel or apartment for 6 months at Gatwick... So for a low cost carrier, that must surely be racking up the $$ to a level beyond BA's comparable EF crew...?
But without beating on too much like a stuck record, for new entrant crew on new contracts these days, the salary is not what it once was... and more and more crew are finding it tough balancing the cost of life in London (can't get a mortgage, stuck renting a craphole, struggling to juggle high costs of running a car, blah blah, anyone crew or otherwise who lives in London knows the score)
And so bmi struggles desperately to get London based crew, to the point where they are bringing down Teeside or Leeds crew etc and nightstopping them in london for several nights and doing ex. LHR flying to Europe as they can't get enough numbers at LHR...
And now BA is also facing a tough time getting the calibre of candidates it wants in the current recruitment campaign....
So, times are a changing, but costs in London continue to soar, and so its hard to imagine if they can further lower the already 'paired back' new entrant contracts.....
I'm all for initiatives that save on admin and management costs, but I already give my life to BA with little or no control of my schedule for 21 days a month, so I'd be reluctant to give up further $$ and the work rules and T&C that we do have which goes a little way to preserving some kind of sanity in the whole thing....!
<steps down from soapbox, and awaits the inevitable barrage of tomato, egg and name throwing!>
Oh - and a quick addendum...
Last year, Easyjet was so in need of London based crew (and not finding them through the usual channels) that they employed the services of an external recruitment agency to find staff, offering them a salary not to far from BA's EF crew, AND paying for their accommodation in a hotel or apartment for 6 months at Gatwick... So for a low cost carrier, that must surely be racking up the $$ to a level beyond BA's comparable EF crew...?
Last edited by YYC F/A; 17th Oct 2004 at 19:27.
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Hello there....
While I agree that the Airline has to streamline to be cost effective, I can't help but think that you can't keep reducing the bread and butter of your core staff.
BA has such a vast and costly middle management structure, which really doesn not need to be in place. Do not forget...BA is primarily and airline. It is responsible for getting people from A to B, and nothing else.
A wise director would look first at areas where he/she can reduce costs effectively...most other Airlines/Airport companies have done this by outsourcing to other Airport companies. Perhaps this is the way forward for BA...they need to take the brave step to snip away one of the tentacles that Ba has. BA has become one "giant octopus" with it's many tentacles grabbing everything possible!
The airline could save so much money by taking the brave step to decrease it's background staff. Baggage services etc...these are all costly areas of the Airline which hardly receive any serious focus from Upper management.
I am in total agreement with YYC F/A...we as crew are finding it extremely difficult to survive living in London on our New contracts...Whilst we are making money, the cost of living is ridiculous........something which is out of the Airlines control. I can't help but think that the new entrants/contractees are putting a very brave face on a serious issue, whilst getting on the with the basics of the job. Yes, I know we all signed the contract, so I know we all knew what we were getting into.
I love working for BA and want to continue working there for a long time. Unfortunately, I do not want my current work conditions to change. I am happy as they are.
Just one final piece on this essay...I have already experienced the hourly rate at a previous airline. I DO NOT wish to experience it at British Airways(or again come to think of it). BA makes more than enough money. Even in a bad year, they manage to remain one of the most profitable airlines in the world...let us not forget that. While profits and shares are important, let us not forget the worker ants that are out there dealing with our(lovely) passengers on a day to day basis. They most definitely deserve to be paid for what they do, that includes the ground staff.
BA is not a poor Ailrine, they just want to make bigger profits to satisfy their shareholders, that is the crux of this whole conversation. Don't forget it.
While I agree that the Airline has to streamline to be cost effective, I can't help but think that you can't keep reducing the bread and butter of your core staff.
BA has such a vast and costly middle management structure, which really doesn not need to be in place. Do not forget...BA is primarily and airline. It is responsible for getting people from A to B, and nothing else.
A wise director would look first at areas where he/she can reduce costs effectively...most other Airlines/Airport companies have done this by outsourcing to other Airport companies. Perhaps this is the way forward for BA...they need to take the brave step to snip away one of the tentacles that Ba has. BA has become one "giant octopus" with it's many tentacles grabbing everything possible!
The airline could save so much money by taking the brave step to decrease it's background staff. Baggage services etc...these are all costly areas of the Airline which hardly receive any serious focus from Upper management.
I am in total agreement with YYC F/A...we as crew are finding it extremely difficult to survive living in London on our New contracts...Whilst we are making money, the cost of living is ridiculous........something which is out of the Airlines control. I can't help but think that the new entrants/contractees are putting a very brave face on a serious issue, whilst getting on the with the basics of the job. Yes, I know we all signed the contract, so I know we all knew what we were getting into.
I love working for BA and want to continue working there for a long time. Unfortunately, I do not want my current work conditions to change. I am happy as they are.
Just one final piece on this essay...I have already experienced the hourly rate at a previous airline. I DO NOT wish to experience it at British Airways(or again come to think of it). BA makes more than enough money. Even in a bad year, they manage to remain one of the most profitable airlines in the world...let us not forget that. While profits and shares are important, let us not forget the worker ants that are out there dealing with our(lovely) passengers on a day to day basis. They most definitely deserve to be paid for what they do, that includes the ground staff.
BA is not a poor Ailrine, they just want to make bigger profits to satisfy their shareholders, that is the crux of this whole conversation. Don't forget it.
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YYC F/A and Hubbly - I can see your points, but your concerns from a BA employee perspective simply aim to delay any changes - changes that you admit are inevitable in the current aviation market.
YYC, the fact that you have little control over your schedule is YOUR choice of job and it comes with the package!
Hubbly - BA profitable? So, how about the millions in pension deficits? And yes, I agree with you that all employees deserve a wage that reflects their skill, but being CC is not a skilled job. (no offence!).
The London base recruitment woes is potentially an issue, but how do the thousands of other London based companies manage then? Answer: they do as there are plenty who will always take these unskilled posts!
I wouldn't expect BA crews to openly agree to a reduction in wage or a change in conditions..outdated conditions. On the same level I wouldn't expect the over crowded levels of BA "managment" to take a cut or see their conditions changed and this includes the CSDs. So, no one takes a cut and no one admits their job is redundant/over paid etc and the company goes further into the red as flying gets cheaper and cheaper for the masses......brilliant! Is this not BA's fundamental problem?
No doubt, you think BA is doing just fine.......
YYC, the fact that you have little control over your schedule is YOUR choice of job and it comes with the package!
Hubbly - BA profitable? So, how about the millions in pension deficits? And yes, I agree with you that all employees deserve a wage that reflects their skill, but being CC is not a skilled job. (no offence!).
The London base recruitment woes is potentially an issue, but how do the thousands of other London based companies manage then? Answer: they do as there are plenty who will always take these unskilled posts!
I wouldn't expect BA crews to openly agree to a reduction in wage or a change in conditions..outdated conditions. On the same level I wouldn't expect the over crowded levels of BA "managment" to take a cut or see their conditions changed and this includes the CSDs. So, no one takes a cut and no one admits their job is redundant/over paid etc and the company goes further into the red as flying gets cheaper and cheaper for the masses......brilliant! Is this not BA's fundamental problem?
No doubt, you think BA is doing just fine.......
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jerrystinger
Define skilled...unskilled.
Crew are often called upon to use defibrillators on SLF(Pax) suffering cardiac problems.Unions in Australia have been trying for years to have CC licensed in relation to the safety, medical and management aspect of their occupation
Crew are often called upon to use defibrillators on SLF(Pax) suffering cardiac problems.Unions in Australia have been trying for years to have CC licensed in relation to the safety, medical and management aspect of their occupation
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I'd argue with unskilled....
Most of the crew I fly with are degree holders or have a trade qualification or have had 8 yrs + experience in hospitality or customer service - I certainly wouldn't call that unskilled.
Out of interest whats the avg yearly salary for a junior F/A at BA? (Incl allowances etc).
Most of the crew I fly with are degree holders or have a trade qualification or have had 8 yrs + experience in hospitality or customer service - I certainly wouldn't call that unskilled.
Out of interest whats the avg yearly salary for a junior F/A at BA? (Incl allowances etc).
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being CC is not a skilled job
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Unfortunately CC like to believe it is a skilled job by saying that they are trained to deal with fires, heart attacks etc, but it is the same training staff at Tesco's go through on fire awareness and First Aid! Maybe the job is a skill for some, ie place teabag in pot, place pot in brewer and then press 'brew' or place a T sticker on the teapots and a C sticker on the coffeepots.......
Next time you are required to fill out the employment section of a form/survey, you will find that Air cabin Crew comes under the unskilled section!
Next time you are required to fill out the employment section of a form/survey, you will find that Air cabin Crew comes under the unskilled section!
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Skills
Interpersonal SKILLS
Time management SKILLS
Medical SKILLS......
Read a book By Daniel Goleman.......Emotional Intelligence.
It is ostensibly a dissertation about life SKILLS which most CC have in truckloads.
Jerry baby it has words of more than one syllable...for you it may be a difficult read.
Time management SKILLS
Medical SKILLS......
Read a book By Daniel Goleman.......Emotional Intelligence.
It is ostensibly a dissertation about life SKILLS which most CC have in truckloads.
Jerry baby it has words of more than one syllable...for you it may be a difficult read.
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the same training staff at Tesco's go through on fire awareness and First Aid
jerrystinger - Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post in a Cabin Crew forum and in doing so, to help us to develop our understanding of our own professional worth. We all look forward to flying with you soon - Have a Nice Day.
For all Cabin Crew on this thread, you may want to read THIS
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Hello again......
I already stated that BA is a profitable airline. Despite the apparent downturn in the industry, BA still manages to turn in millions os pounds.....over 200 million IN PROFIT for the last quater!! I am not basing this off of lies.
Like many companies BA ran it's pension scheme through the stock market. When the conditions on the stock markets changed, so did the misfortunes of all those who put their faith in the BA pension schemes. This is the story for many people right across the country working for many different companies. The one good thing BA staff can count on is that they at least will get a return from their pensions. I can't help but think of all those other people who've been fleeced by their companies for their pensions. I know the return will not necessarily be that which we expected, or which we have contributed for so long. BA staff members are fully aware of this situatin, an many are actively trying to counter this issue.
On the point of CC being an unskilled job, I have had this argument with Flight crews for quite some time. BA has a base requirement for their CC's to have a minimum GCSE pass rate at level C (english and maths). The byproduct of this is that you will not get unskilled/uneducated CC's. You will invariably get crews which have some life/job experience which is skilled. Once you have passed the initial 5 week training course you come out with Basic first Aid skills. You come out with the Skills to operate on an various A/C types. Basic though they may be, these are skills nonetheless.
Like others have mentioned in this forum, far from being just "checkout staff from tesco's"(as a previous airline CEO stated) many crews are more qualified than their managers/directors. We choose to do this job because it is something that we love doing. I myself am constantly asked why I am doing such a "lowly" job, compared to what I have done previously....my answer is simple...."because I love it".
The perception of many of the public is that role of cabin crew is nothing more than an overglorified waiter. We as crew take offence to this. My argument with Flight crew has been the same. We all know that their job is a skilled one...they fly the A/C...simple. How can the job of those working behind them and dealing with all the passengers not be a skilled one? Okay if it is not a skill...then let's at least call it an art form....I personally think it is magic how we manage to get through some days with all the stress and hassle that we have to go through, just to get people from A to B.
Flying getting cheaper? That would be the perception I suppose, but I do not think it is any cheaper than it has been before. In 1995 a ticket to Amsterdam cost £63+tax. Today a Tkt to AMS costo £75+tax(on average). Costs may be rising.....I can believe that argument more.......The industry has changed. WIth the mass arrival of low cost carriers(perhaps this is what you mean by cheaper), the European market has become more competitive. To combat this, the Airlines have cheapened themselves. They have changed their onboard services, increased their frequency etc. It is the perception of BA that they have to compete with these low cost carriers. Having spoken to numerous passengers, it is my belief and theirs that BA does not have to compete with these low cost carriers. Pax choose BA for their name and their service and quality. Pax choose the low cost carriers for their "apparent cheap prices". I say apparent because their low costs only apply to certain flights and they are more often than not selling tkts at a higher cost than BA ( I have personal experience of this). So on the argument of flying getting cheaper, I am not so convinced. BA has it's knickers in an twist about the low cost carriers...that I can tell you. I don't know why...they have had experience of them since the days of LAKER. I ahve recently see in the BA news that mgmnt have realised that they do not need to compete against low cost carriers. BA knows their client base and are happy with their position in the market. In response to this argument...all I have to say, is action speak louder than words. Bring back good service, and stop making shortcuts. This will keep the client base happy.
I'm off the soap box now........comments are greatly accepted.
Jerry and johnnydee.......
Let\'s not get too condescending to all the CC on this site. I appreciate your opinion, it does make for an enlightening discussion, but to compare tesco\'s staff training to CC is way off the scale.
In your far reaching opinions, do you both consider office staff to be skilled becuase they use a keyboard...look on that samejob application form and you will see that it mentions that Clerical staff are skilled!! This means that our ground staff must also be skilled!!
Skilled/unskilled, it\'s all a point of conjecture. To deal with people effectively is a skill...for which we are trained might I add. Training denotes that you have some sort of skill at the end of it. Should you pass......
Regarding your example of putting a teabag/coffebag into a teapot.......I think that is a bit base!! Crew do far more than that. Perhaps you want to raise the hackles of those that are replying on this forum. Maybe that is your experience of crew.....I suggest that you relook at the role of CC more carefully. Ask most flight crew just to operate a bev maker (I\'m keeping my comments to level that you made yours) and you\'ll see just how little they know, outside the skills which they have been trained for.
Passenger airlines DO NOT work without the skills of BOTH flight crew and cabin crew. Simple...We need both and both are skilled. If you base whether someone is skilled or unskilled from a form, then that is your choice. I think actions speaks louder than words......written or spoken.
To do bring this whole discussion to basics, we are all doing a job...all jobs require certain skills. From a street sweeper to an astronaut, you still need skills to get the job done. Many you learn whilst on the job. Anyone who works will develop skills to complete their job. Simple........ Both of you are applauding yourselves on the fact that you\'ve defined skilled/unskilled........relook at this. You are just using another persons point of view to make an argument..afterall a form is just the reflection of another persons opinion.
Arm_Doors
Avg salary for junior CC at BA is stated as £15000. On average the take home wage is between £1400 and £1800.
I have one more point to make then I will go.
BA flight crew made a deal with mgmnt to take the hourly rate. Their basic wage was increased by 25%+. God knows what their hourly rate is......
CC will never get an offer like this (and we do not expect it...before you get all fired up) we are just looking for an offer that reflects the efforts that we put into working for this vast and good company. Flight crews cannot understand why we do not accept this hourly rate..well I do not accept that £1.98 and hour is any rate without an increase in my basic wage???? Put yourselves in our shoes...we stand to lose out...would you also agree to that.....it\'s over to you Jerry.
I already stated that BA is a profitable airline. Despite the apparent downturn in the industry, BA still manages to turn in millions os pounds.....over 200 million IN PROFIT for the last quater!! I am not basing this off of lies.
Like many companies BA ran it's pension scheme through the stock market. When the conditions on the stock markets changed, so did the misfortunes of all those who put their faith in the BA pension schemes. This is the story for many people right across the country working for many different companies. The one good thing BA staff can count on is that they at least will get a return from their pensions. I can't help but think of all those other people who've been fleeced by their companies for their pensions. I know the return will not necessarily be that which we expected, or which we have contributed for so long. BA staff members are fully aware of this situatin, an many are actively trying to counter this issue.
On the point of CC being an unskilled job, I have had this argument with Flight crews for quite some time. BA has a base requirement for their CC's to have a minimum GCSE pass rate at level C (english and maths). The byproduct of this is that you will not get unskilled/uneducated CC's. You will invariably get crews which have some life/job experience which is skilled. Once you have passed the initial 5 week training course you come out with Basic first Aid skills. You come out with the Skills to operate on an various A/C types. Basic though they may be, these are skills nonetheless.
Like others have mentioned in this forum, far from being just "checkout staff from tesco's"(as a previous airline CEO stated) many crews are more qualified than their managers/directors. We choose to do this job because it is something that we love doing. I myself am constantly asked why I am doing such a "lowly" job, compared to what I have done previously....my answer is simple...."because I love it".
The perception of many of the public is that role of cabin crew is nothing more than an overglorified waiter. We as crew take offence to this. My argument with Flight crew has been the same. We all know that their job is a skilled one...they fly the A/C...simple. How can the job of those working behind them and dealing with all the passengers not be a skilled one? Okay if it is not a skill...then let's at least call it an art form....I personally think it is magic how we manage to get through some days with all the stress and hassle that we have to go through, just to get people from A to B.
Flying getting cheaper? That would be the perception I suppose, but I do not think it is any cheaper than it has been before. In 1995 a ticket to Amsterdam cost £63+tax. Today a Tkt to AMS costo £75+tax(on average). Costs may be rising.....I can believe that argument more.......The industry has changed. WIth the mass arrival of low cost carriers(perhaps this is what you mean by cheaper), the European market has become more competitive. To combat this, the Airlines have cheapened themselves. They have changed their onboard services, increased their frequency etc. It is the perception of BA that they have to compete with these low cost carriers. Having spoken to numerous passengers, it is my belief and theirs that BA does not have to compete with these low cost carriers. Pax choose BA for their name and their service and quality. Pax choose the low cost carriers for their "apparent cheap prices". I say apparent because their low costs only apply to certain flights and they are more often than not selling tkts at a higher cost than BA ( I have personal experience of this). So on the argument of flying getting cheaper, I am not so convinced. BA has it's knickers in an twist about the low cost carriers...that I can tell you. I don't know why...they have had experience of them since the days of LAKER. I ahve recently see in the BA news that mgmnt have realised that they do not need to compete against low cost carriers. BA knows their client base and are happy with their position in the market. In response to this argument...all I have to say, is action speak louder than words. Bring back good service, and stop making shortcuts. This will keep the client base happy.
I'm off the soap box now........comments are greatly accepted.
Jerry and johnnydee.......
Let\'s not get too condescending to all the CC on this site. I appreciate your opinion, it does make for an enlightening discussion, but to compare tesco\'s staff training to CC is way off the scale.
In your far reaching opinions, do you both consider office staff to be skilled becuase they use a keyboard...look on that samejob application form and you will see that it mentions that Clerical staff are skilled!! This means that our ground staff must also be skilled!!
Skilled/unskilled, it\'s all a point of conjecture. To deal with people effectively is a skill...for which we are trained might I add. Training denotes that you have some sort of skill at the end of it. Should you pass......
Regarding your example of putting a teabag/coffebag into a teapot.......I think that is a bit base!! Crew do far more than that. Perhaps you want to raise the hackles of those that are replying on this forum. Maybe that is your experience of crew.....I suggest that you relook at the role of CC more carefully. Ask most flight crew just to operate a bev maker (I\'m keeping my comments to level that you made yours) and you\'ll see just how little they know, outside the skills which they have been trained for.
Passenger airlines DO NOT work without the skills of BOTH flight crew and cabin crew. Simple...We need both and both are skilled. If you base whether someone is skilled or unskilled from a form, then that is your choice. I think actions speaks louder than words......written or spoken.
To do bring this whole discussion to basics, we are all doing a job...all jobs require certain skills. From a street sweeper to an astronaut, you still need skills to get the job done. Many you learn whilst on the job. Anyone who works will develop skills to complete their job. Simple........ Both of you are applauding yourselves on the fact that you\'ve defined skilled/unskilled........relook at this. You are just using another persons point of view to make an argument..afterall a form is just the reflection of another persons opinion.
Arm_Doors
Avg salary for junior CC at BA is stated as £15000. On average the take home wage is between £1400 and £1800.
I have one more point to make then I will go.
BA flight crew made a deal with mgmnt to take the hourly rate. Their basic wage was increased by 25%+. God knows what their hourly rate is......
CC will never get an offer like this (and we do not expect it...before you get all fired up) we are just looking for an offer that reflects the efforts that we put into working for this vast and good company. Flight crews cannot understand why we do not accept this hourly rate..well I do not accept that £1.98 and hour is any rate without an increase in my basic wage???? Put yourselves in our shoes...we stand to lose out...would you also agree to that.....it\'s over to you Jerry.
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hi
My friend and i are very happy for this last long opinion.
We are very open minded people but did not appreciate at all being called unskilled waiters!!!!
Our job is much more than that....i think the latter has explained exactly some of the things we must do apart from brewing or serving tea or coffee.
Most cabin Crews are people with university diplomas so that is surely skilled....
by the way...in an emergency situation, we have to aid opening doors and fighting fires with correct procedures. If there's a pregnant mother we must aid her to deliver the baby....
I have come across some nasty situations and due to our training i have been able together with my colleagues to mitigate a worse situation which could lead to diversion.
Further more most crews speak more than 3 languages and normally that doesnt happen unless you have learn't them sometime in your school life.
We are wondering why people think that we are unskilled just because our training takes five weeks but, what about our previous experiences??? to those who do have years already in airline industry or tourism and hospitality related jobs???
I myself have a diploma in Tourism, and have worked in well respected hospitality related jobs.
My friend has a masters in geography and philosophy of flying and he loves just like me, his job ....
IT IS NOT A WAITERING JOB...theres is much more to it....on december 6th we start our BA training....and we are so proud to be part of one of the worlds fav. airlines.
keep comments flowing ...preferably good ones!
We are very open minded people but did not appreciate at all being called unskilled waiters!!!!
Our job is much more than that....i think the latter has explained exactly some of the things we must do apart from brewing or serving tea or coffee.
Most cabin Crews are people with university diplomas so that is surely skilled....
by the way...in an emergency situation, we have to aid opening doors and fighting fires with correct procedures. If there's a pregnant mother we must aid her to deliver the baby....
I have come across some nasty situations and due to our training i have been able together with my colleagues to mitigate a worse situation which could lead to diversion.
Further more most crews speak more than 3 languages and normally that doesnt happen unless you have learn't them sometime in your school life.
We are wondering why people think that we are unskilled just because our training takes five weeks but, what about our previous experiences??? to those who do have years already in airline industry or tourism and hospitality related jobs???
I myself have a diploma in Tourism, and have worked in well respected hospitality related jobs.
My friend has a masters in geography and philosophy of flying and he loves just like me, his job ....
IT IS NOT A WAITERING JOB...theres is much more to it....on december 6th we start our BA training....and we are so proud to be part of one of the worlds fav. airlines.
keep comments flowing ...preferably good ones!
FCOLOVER22
" Most Cabin Crew are people with University Diplomas so that is surely skilled" does not in itself mean that Cabin Crew is a skilled job.. it just means some well educated people choose to do the job.
Having said that, good luck on your course.
" Most Cabin Crew are people with University Diplomas so that is surely skilled" does not in itself mean that Cabin Crew is a skilled job.. it just means some well educated people choose to do the job.
Having said that, good luck on your course.
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Hubbly - some excellent points well articulated...
Jerry - with regard to your points:
Actually - if we want to stay on thread and compare 'apples to apples', i.e. airlines to airlines, the 'Answer' is that airlines on the whole are having an immense problem recruiting and retaining staff of the appropriate calibre (and with the approrpriate skills!!) to be based out of London. I've already given examples of bmi's and easyjet's woes. My Travel and some of the other charter carriers have also experienced it to a degree at Gatwick (though the situation is a little different from LHR). A reduction in T&C (certainly for BA EF crew) would make the lines between BA and bmi much more hazy when it comes to Crew £ and conditions... and bmi has has immense troubles with recruiting and retaining quality crew at LHR on the wages and conditions there... Does BA want to face the same crisis?
Absolutely, which is why you will note that I was not complaining about my schedule, but rather pointing out that the work rules and conditions we do have give us some kind of work/home life balance, and therefore a further erosion of these conditions would make the job unattractive (and for many crew, unsustainable with things like a family life etc).
The fact is that the airlines, especially for London bases, have had to face the reality that the cost of living has risen so exponentially, that for those not already on the property ladder and established, the prospect of getting a mortgage, running a car, supporting a family etc. becomes more and more out of reach. The mantra of days gone by whereby 'if they don't like it, they can shove off and we'll get one of the thousands of people lining up for their job to take their place' is now showing itself to be somewhat short sighted in todays environment. These 'bright new faces' waiting to jump into our jobs (at least those of suitable skills and calibre) are not in fact lining up in droves. BA stands above bmi, GB Airways et al by having crew whom have decent T&C which allows a work home balance, and provide for a reasonable wage. This in turn keeps the cost of constant recruitment and training from staff turnover down, and a balanced workforce headcount.
I realise that I'm banging on a lot about the cost of living in London, but the reality is that this, along with the importance of having some form of work/home balance, are critical to the success of getting and retaining decent staff... And the costs that other airlines must be facing in constant recruitment and training and dealing with a 30, 40 or even 50% annual turnover (yes, some of the have an annual turnover that high) must surely be of such a level that one has to question the validity of cutting back on those vital things and facing the latter as a consequence. Saving a penny but losing a pound comes to mind....
Also, I feel you have distorted both My, and Hubbly's comments in regards to streamlining the business.
Actually, No. Streamlining the business does not neccesarily = hacking away at the $ and T&C of the crew, and I didn't admit that these are neccesarily inevitable. What I do think is that as an airline, BA needs to look at costs, certainly. But it isn't neccesarily just a 'pop at crew costs' that BA needs... it's about continuing to lower our distribution costs, tieing the product offered more closely to the price paid, and possibly exploring some of the avenues Hubbly has mentioned such as contracting out for certain services to competitive tender instead of inhouse...?
Finally, you've made the 'unskilled' comment in several different threads in the Cabin Crew section now. You say 'No Offence', but I have to question your motives here. Do you really think that coming into the Cabin Crew forum and repeatedly telling us we are unskilled is not going to cause irritation and or offence?
As I've already touched upon in other threads on here, I don't agree that we are Unskilled, but rather that our skills are different from those of say an Engineer or a Pilot. Whilst those professions have very easily quantifiable 'technical skills', this is not to say that a skill must be technical to qualify as a skill.
I looked up Skill in the dictionary, and here was it's definition:
Skill - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
See also Synonyms at ability - An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
A developed talent or ability: writing skills.
In addition to Intermediate First Aid, the airlines training of which is CAA mandated and supervised, and which far surpasses the training given by supermarkets, there are many other skills.
Being able to communicate effectively with our customers in their langauge... that's a skill.
Being able to deliver good customer service using techniques acquired through training and experience - that's a skill.
Being able to deal with an abusive passenger on board, use techniques to diffuse the situation, but ultimately be able to manage and restrain such a passenger if the need arises... That's a skill.
I realise I'm being a bit pedantic perhaps here Jerry (and JonnyDee123), but hey, No offence!
Jerry - with regard to your points:
The London base recruitment woes is potentially an issue, but how do the thousands of other London based companies manage then? Answer: they do as there are plenty who will always take these unskilled posts!
YYC, the fact that you have little control over your schedule is YOUR choice of job and it comes with the package!
The fact is that the airlines, especially for London bases, have had to face the reality that the cost of living has risen so exponentially, that for those not already on the property ladder and established, the prospect of getting a mortgage, running a car, supporting a family etc. becomes more and more out of reach. The mantra of days gone by whereby 'if they don't like it, they can shove off and we'll get one of the thousands of people lining up for their job to take their place' is now showing itself to be somewhat short sighted in todays environment. These 'bright new faces' waiting to jump into our jobs (at least those of suitable skills and calibre) are not in fact lining up in droves. BA stands above bmi, GB Airways et al by having crew whom have decent T&C which allows a work home balance, and provide for a reasonable wage. This in turn keeps the cost of constant recruitment and training from staff turnover down, and a balanced workforce headcount.
I realise that I'm banging on a lot about the cost of living in London, but the reality is that this, along with the importance of having some form of work/home balance, are critical to the success of getting and retaining decent staff... And the costs that other airlines must be facing in constant recruitment and training and dealing with a 30, 40 or even 50% annual turnover (yes, some of the have an annual turnover that high) must surely be of such a level that one has to question the validity of cutting back on those vital things and facing the latter as a consequence. Saving a penny but losing a pound comes to mind....
Also, I feel you have distorted both My, and Hubbly's comments in regards to streamlining the business.
your concerns from a BA employee perspective simply aim to delay any changes - changes that you admit are inevitable in the current aviation market
Finally, you've made the 'unskilled' comment in several different threads in the Cabin Crew section now. You say 'No Offence', but I have to question your motives here. Do you really think that coming into the Cabin Crew forum and repeatedly telling us we are unskilled is not going to cause irritation and or offence?
As I've already touched upon in other threads on here, I don't agree that we are Unskilled, but rather that our skills are different from those of say an Engineer or a Pilot. Whilst those professions have very easily quantifiable 'technical skills', this is not to say that a skill must be technical to qualify as a skill.
I looked up Skill in the dictionary, and here was it's definition:
Skill - Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
See also Synonyms at ability - An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
A developed talent or ability: writing skills.
In addition to Intermediate First Aid, the airlines training of which is CAA mandated and supervised, and which far surpasses the training given by supermarkets, there are many other skills.
Being able to communicate effectively with our customers in their langauge... that's a skill.
Being able to deliver good customer service using techniques acquired through training and experience - that's a skill.
Being able to deal with an abusive passenger on board, use techniques to diffuse the situation, but ultimately be able to manage and restrain such a passenger if the need arises... That's a skill.
I realise I'm being a bit pedantic perhaps here Jerry (and JonnyDee123), but hey, No offence!
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Good post YYZ F/A, and interesting points of view 
While I was reading it I wondered if I could be defined skilled on the eyes of those so insistent on wanting to convince us that we CC are not. So I put on paper whatever might be regarded as "skill" (thanks YYZ F/A for the definition )
-University education
-14 years experience on the field on 13 different aircraft types
of which 8 as a CC, 1 as a Purser and 5 as N1 (or CSD as you decide to call it).
-CC Certificates issued by 2 different Countries (after exam by local CAAs)
-I currently speak 4 languages
Since I joined my current airline 4 years ago, I went into the following courses:
-8 weeks initial training
-Annual Recurrent Training Courses about:
SEP
Security
Dangerous Goods
CRM
Disruptive Pax
-Annual Recurrent Training on each Aircraft Type
-Human Factors
-Handicapped Passengers
-Tutor
-I am studying for my 5th language (will have a one week specialization course paid by the company next year)
So am I skilled or am I not?
Of course I am still doing it because the salary is worth it. If I had to live on breadcrusts and ride a moped I'd surely look for a plan B. For the moment my "plans B" have been to change airline when the condition changed for the worst (I love my profession and want to get to the age of retirement still a CC). Meaning the companies offering the best salaries get the more skilled. Of course you can take someone, give him/her a basic course and throw him/her into a CC uniform. You'll then, as a company, get what you paid for (peanuts), and the same applies for any other profession on the market, pilots included.
While I was reading it I wondered if I could be defined skilled on the eyes of those so insistent on wanting to convince us that we CC are not. So I put on paper whatever might be regarded as "skill" (thanks YYZ F/A for the definition
)-University education
-14 years experience on the field on 13 different aircraft types
of which 8 as a CC, 1 as a Purser and 5 as N1 (or CSD as you decide to call it).
-CC Certificates issued by 2 different Countries (after exam by local CAAs)
-I currently speak 4 languages
Since I joined my current airline 4 years ago, I went into the following courses:
-8 weeks initial training
-Annual Recurrent Training Courses about:
SEP
Security
Dangerous Goods
CRM
Disruptive Pax
-Annual Recurrent Training on each Aircraft Type
-Human Factors
-Handicapped Passengers
-Tutor
-I am studying for my 5th language (will have a one week specialization course paid by the company next year)
So am I skilled or am I not?
Of course I am still doing it because the salary is worth it. If I had to live on breadcrusts and ride a moped I'd surely look for a plan B. For the moment my "plans B" have been to change airline when the condition changed for the worst (I love my profession and want to get to the age of retirement still a CC). Meaning the companies offering the best salaries get the more skilled. Of course you can take someone, give him/her a basic course and throw him/her into a CC uniform. You'll then, as a company, get what you paid for (peanuts), and the same applies for any other profession on the market, pilots included.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Tin hat on and standing well back..... 
While I appreciate there are some very highly qualified people flying as Cabin Crew with BA - and in my own experience I have flown with countless people with Bachelor's degrees (as I have myself), quite a few people with Master's degrees (one I remember as ex-Harvard!!) and the odd PhD - can I ask (and this is where the tin hat comes in), much as you all say you love the job, bearing in mind what has been written here and elsewhere regarding BA cabin crew salaries, would you all love it as much for £20k per year instead of £30k?
I suggest this as the above salary would bring the job more in line with those expected from careers directly related to the qualifications obtained - no doubt, there are some who could earn more elsewhere and truly enjoy the job, but the question stands. Just playing Devil's Advocate, no offence intended.....
While I appreciate there are some very highly qualified people flying as Cabin Crew with BA - and in my own experience I have flown with countless people with Bachelor's degrees (as I have myself), quite a few people with Master's degrees (one I remember as ex-Harvard!!) and the odd PhD - can I ask (and this is where the tin hat comes in), much as you all say you love the job, bearing in mind what has been written here and elsewhere regarding BA cabin crew salaries, would you all love it as much for £20k per year instead of £30k?
I suggest this as the above salary would bring the job more in line with those expected from careers directly related to the qualifications obtained - no doubt, there are some who could earn more elsewhere and truly enjoy the job, but the question stands. Just playing Devil's Advocate, no offence intended.....
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Hi Human Factor,
20k instead of 30k?!!!
Seeing as I make less than 20k a year (and I commute from Canada to do this job), and yeah, I still love it, I think that's your answer! And yes, commuting is my choice, but given the dreadful lack of permanent flying jobs in Canada and the situation with Air Canada, if I wanted to stay flying and have any kind of longer term 'security' (insofar as is possible in this industry!) commuting was about the only choice... And I pay for my own hotels, and my return air fare, and live out of a suitcase, and am away from family and friends, and I don't complain because I do love this job, be it on much much less than 30k!
20k instead of 30k?!!!
Seeing as I make less than 20k a year (and I commute from Canada to do this job), and yeah, I still love it, I think that's your answer! And yes, commuting is my choice, but given the dreadful lack of permanent flying jobs in Canada and the situation with Air Canada, if I wanted to stay flying and have any kind of longer term 'security' (insofar as is possible in this industry!) commuting was about the only choice... And I pay for my own hotels, and my return air fare, and live out of a suitcase, and am away from family and friends, and I don't complain because I do love this job, be it on much much less than 30k!
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This is a very interesting post indeed.. I myself am ex-B.A. Eurofleet Heathrow cabin crew and I don't ever remember earning anywhere near those amounts of money! perhaps my trip allocations were not so good, but I enjoyed it all the same. I'm now at easyJet & it really is what I would consider a 'decent' company to work for.
I don't have the fantastic worldwide staff travel, however I do have a confimed seat on the majority of routes out of any easyJet base. I can use anyone of the 'interline' travel centres to book my worldwide deals for a fraction of the cost of normal airfares & accomodation. My salary is very good indeed which is made up of basic salary, sector pay & commission, that together with the language allowance, night-stop allowances (which are rare these days) uniform allowances & yearly bonus adds up to a very respectable £23k to £26k per year (before tax).
I really enjoyed my time at B.A. but one of my parents died & I had to move back up north. I've been lucky enough to buy my first house 2 years ago & I drive a nice car. I visit different parts of the world twice or three times a year & have the odd couple of nights away in europe occasionally too. I think theres good arguments for us being skilled & not-skilled but does it really matter? Hey, were flying round in aeroplanes to different parts of the world & getting paid for it! I think it's fantastic & still do after 12 years in this job. Oh, I only got O levels & A levels so I don't think I'm too qualified for anything else to be honest, but the fact remains that doing this career has given me so much & whether you're doing it now or in twenty years time, enjoy it!
I don't have the fantastic worldwide staff travel, however I do have a confimed seat on the majority of routes out of any easyJet base. I can use anyone of the 'interline' travel centres to book my worldwide deals for a fraction of the cost of normal airfares & accomodation. My salary is very good indeed which is made up of basic salary, sector pay & commission, that together with the language allowance, night-stop allowances (which are rare these days) uniform allowances & yearly bonus adds up to a very respectable £23k to £26k per year (before tax).
I really enjoyed my time at B.A. but one of my parents died & I had to move back up north. I've been lucky enough to buy my first house 2 years ago & I drive a nice car. I visit different parts of the world twice or three times a year & have the odd couple of nights away in europe occasionally too. I think theres good arguments for us being skilled & not-skilled but does it really matter? Hey, were flying round in aeroplanes to different parts of the world & getting paid for it! I think it's fantastic & still do after 12 years in this job. Oh, I only got O levels & A levels so I don't think I'm too qualified for anything else to be honest, but the fact remains that doing this career has given me so much & whether you're doing it now or in twenty years time, enjoy it!
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much as you all say you love the job, bearing in mind what has been written here and elsewhere regarding BA cabin crew salaries, would you all love it as much for £20k per year instead of £30k?
If you asked any person in any industry to take a 10K a year pay cut, what do you think their response would be? Many many crew at BA persevere despite ever diluted working conditions because they have a genuine passion for their job.
This said, I think to ask anyone to take a ten grand a year paycut (which by the above calculation is 33%) is going to create a particularly tough situation for the group in question. OK, perhaps there are thousands of people just waiting out there to take such a position on a lower wage, but in reality it is not tangibly possible for a company to handle a mass exodus one day and hire a whole new group of crew the next. The implications of such a cut go much further too ... does nothing for morale (an ongoing issue) and in the customer service industry low morale can be incredibly damaging. So the relevance of the industry benchmark salary for crew at BA is, actually, rather irrelevant....
BA will have a hard time back stepping on this one and if they do they will lose quality people and end up becoming a true low cost carrier with low cost service. No offence to anyone at EZ or FR by this statement as I am sure they do a great job - my point is that crew at BA do a fabulous job 99% of the time and do not deserve to get the bad rap they do from various parties that I so often encounter. A product is only as good as the people that deliver it, so take away those people, reduce crew complements and break morale, and what do you think you get?
As for an unskilled job, I think there are a huge majority that wouldn't be unable to endure for more than a few flights before throwing in the towel. "Skilled" is a subjective word and by its very definition working as cabin crew is in fact multi-skilling. Spending 12 plus hours on a plane with Joe Public continually placing demands on you calls for tact, diplomacy, and patience amongst other things...oh and we are forgetting the annual recurrent training, 100 plus pass/fail exam questions and intensive (mandatory pass) aviation medical training that one goes through each year
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Finals,
I'm not suggesting anyone should take a pay cut. What I'm suggesting is that a lot of these highly qualified individuals may not have considered becoming cabin crew with BA in the first place had the pay been £20k rather than £30k.
I'm not suggesting anyone should take a pay cut. What I'm suggesting is that a lot of these highly qualified individuals may not have considered becoming cabin crew with BA in the first place had the pay been £20k rather than £30k.