Qantas London base
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Sima,
You don't seem to understand that this isn't about 200 odd crew having an exciting adventure in London. This is about thousands of crew having their livelihoods affected forever.
If employees are united then they can stop big organisations from doing things. Just look at BA in 1999, they tried to screw their crew and it cost them millions of pounds when they called in sick for a day.
Unfortunately some Australian's seem to take pleasure in having big companies walk all over them. This would never ever happen in the UK, I have no doubt the crew would stick together, say NO and the company would look at other options.
Whilst we have people like yourself, Q-Tee etc. bum licking the company managers (who have been lying through their teeth for almost a year) the base may go ahead.
However, the majority of crew (90-95%) can cost the company a lot of money in the process and hence less bonuses for said lying, greedy managers.
You don't seem to understand that this isn't about 200 odd crew having an exciting adventure in London. This is about thousands of crew having their livelihoods affected forever.
If employees are united then they can stop big organisations from doing things. Just look at BA in 1999, they tried to screw their crew and it cost them millions of pounds when they called in sick for a day.
Unfortunately some Australian's seem to take pleasure in having big companies walk all over them. This would never ever happen in the UK, I have no doubt the crew would stick together, say NO and the company would look at other options.
Whilst we have people like yourself, Q-Tee etc. bum licking the company managers (who have been lying through their teeth for almost a year) the base may go ahead.
However, the majority of crew (90-95%) can cost the company a lot of money in the process and hence less bonuses for said lying, greedy managers.
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Having followed this thread for some time...
Those of you who have chosen to take 2 years in the UK will be very welcome here!
As for living in western European poverty I can assure you there are many cabin crew working out of LHR on a lesser salary and they most certainly don’t live in shop doorways and only eat beans out of choice not necessity!
As for the POMMS you’ll be working with I’m sure you’ll find us Brit. cabin crew friendly, Amenable but also professional.
Australian jobs for Australians only? Sounds awfully racist to me.
Whilst I can understand your fight for your terms and conditions there seems little TOLERANCE of those who have decided to try a spell in the UK.
There have been several postings re the decline in your airline, It would appear that from the attitudes demonstrated by those crew who believe that a mass sickie or strike will cure all the ills, That much of the blame can be laid at crew attitudes and behaviour, You have no monopoly tickets on routes you fly can be bought on any number of carriers what sets you apart is the people, Its not the directors who PAX interact with its the crew ...and quite often the only Qantas person they will ever deal with or meet is the crew...OPINIONS are based on your behaviour and attitudes.
Sadly some of your postings show little demonstrative evidence of a professional cabin crew, Rather a group of spoiled employees resistant to change in an industry that has been forced to undergo radical changes in an effort to maintain profitability in a market which is consumer driven.
Remember this industry is all about bums on seats at the right price… The industry has moved on from the days of glamour and first class travel…. It’s a harsh commercial world … There will be casualties…. Face facts the LHR base will happen. If it’s crewed by Australians or Europeans its going to happen one way or the other.
Accept the fact and work on maintaining acceptable conditions for the routes and bases left .
European airline and staff have done it and the world hasn’t ended and contrary to opinion I have yet to meet any airline staff in the UK living in abject poverty.
As a European aviation professional im fully expecting the wrath of flaming and comment that will surely follow this posting , But its time that an objective stance was taken on this, No one wants to see jobs be eroded in the industry but move with the times accept that things will change , yes not flying SYD_LHR will mean no LH allowances but work to better what you wil be left with rather than bitter in-fighting between yourselves .
Sadly you are doing nothing to maintain PAX perceptions simply playing into the hands of a management that has learnt to play the crews .
And yes for every bitter twisted Aussie crew member who refuses to see the writting on the wall theres a dozen Brits happy to fly for the Roo !
Striking will soon loose you the sympathy of the public.. Here in the UK our firefighters went on strike for 24hour periods a while back ... Very soon the public lost sympathy for them when the armed forces were being called to deal with incidents soon enough the strikes ended and talks reached a soloution far from what the fire fighters hoped for and a lot less than they had asked for.
Qantas have already proved how easy it is to train contract staff and management to operate as crew , If you want to see YOUR positions eroded carry on.....
Those of you who have chosen to take 2 years in the UK will be very welcome here!
As for living in western European poverty I can assure you there are many cabin crew working out of LHR on a lesser salary and they most certainly don’t live in shop doorways and only eat beans out of choice not necessity!
As for the POMMS you’ll be working with I’m sure you’ll find us Brit. cabin crew friendly, Amenable but also professional.
Australian jobs for Australians only? Sounds awfully racist to me.
Whilst I can understand your fight for your terms and conditions there seems little TOLERANCE of those who have decided to try a spell in the UK.
There have been several postings re the decline in your airline, It would appear that from the attitudes demonstrated by those crew who believe that a mass sickie or strike will cure all the ills, That much of the blame can be laid at crew attitudes and behaviour, You have no monopoly tickets on routes you fly can be bought on any number of carriers what sets you apart is the people, Its not the directors who PAX interact with its the crew ...and quite often the only Qantas person they will ever deal with or meet is the crew...OPINIONS are based on your behaviour and attitudes.
Sadly some of your postings show little demonstrative evidence of a professional cabin crew, Rather a group of spoiled employees resistant to change in an industry that has been forced to undergo radical changes in an effort to maintain profitability in a market which is consumer driven.
Remember this industry is all about bums on seats at the right price… The industry has moved on from the days of glamour and first class travel…. It’s a harsh commercial world … There will be casualties…. Face facts the LHR base will happen. If it’s crewed by Australians or Europeans its going to happen one way or the other.
Accept the fact and work on maintaining acceptable conditions for the routes and bases left .
European airline and staff have done it and the world hasn’t ended and contrary to opinion I have yet to meet any airline staff in the UK living in abject poverty.
As a European aviation professional im fully expecting the wrath of flaming and comment that will surely follow this posting , But its time that an objective stance was taken on this, No one wants to see jobs be eroded in the industry but move with the times accept that things will change , yes not flying SYD_LHR will mean no LH allowances but work to better what you wil be left with rather than bitter in-fighting between yourselves .
Sadly you are doing nothing to maintain PAX perceptions simply playing into the hands of a management that has learnt to play the crews .
And yes for every bitter twisted Aussie crew member who refuses to see the writting on the wall theres a dozen Brits happy to fly for the Roo !
Striking will soon loose you the sympathy of the public.. Here in the UK our firefighters went on strike for 24hour periods a while back ... Very soon the public lost sympathy for them when the armed forces were being called to deal with incidents soon enough the strikes ended and talks reached a soloution far from what the fire fighters hoped for and a lot less than they had asked for.
Qantas have already proved how easy it is to train contract staff and management to operate as crew , If you want to see YOUR positions eroded carry on.....
Last edited by Airbus215; 14th Oct 2004 at 11:48.
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Recently did the 'Straight Talk' training ....very different, cant work out whether I liked it or not.
The one overiding factor was the other crew talking out against the union. No-one wants to strike.
L2P and STR, not too sure which of the three you are from the union Larry, Curly(the one with the really bad rug) or Moe.But from that training course it seems the f/as are turning against the FAAA, they were really pissed about the strike threats.The union has lost the members support, particularly considering the publishing of the offer from the company.We keep our conditions, we continue to fly to Lhr,have a cap on overseas bases and we get a pay rise! And the union walked out?Very few crew will support industrial action.And yup I am crew, and will be working on a dispute day, and will not go sick on 'that day'.The current union reps may be nice people, but boy have they read the crew wrong on this one.
Good luck Q--tee, Hugh and the rest going there, look forward to seeing you guys in SIN,BKK and HKG to see how the base is going.L2P, STR, you guys are on the same path as the dinosaurs, outdated,and fighting a lost cause.If anyone thinks the Lhr base wont happen, then you are either on really good drugs, or delusional.Lets focus on things we can achieve, not those battles already lost.
[waits for maniacal tyrade from L2P and STR]
The one overiding factor was the other crew talking out against the union. No-one wants to strike.
L2P and STR, not too sure which of the three you are from the union Larry, Curly(the one with the really bad rug) or Moe.But from that training course it seems the f/as are turning against the FAAA, they were really pissed about the strike threats.The union has lost the members support, particularly considering the publishing of the offer from the company.We keep our conditions, we continue to fly to Lhr,have a cap on overseas bases and we get a pay rise! And the union walked out?Very few crew will support industrial action.And yup I am crew, and will be working on a dispute day, and will not go sick on 'that day'.The current union reps may be nice people, but boy have they read the crew wrong on this one.
Good luck Q--tee, Hugh and the rest going there, look forward to seeing you guys in SIN,BKK and HKG to see how the base is going.L2P, STR, you guys are on the same path as the dinosaurs, outdated,and fighting a lost cause.If anyone thinks the Lhr base wont happen, then you are either on really good drugs, or delusional.Lets focus on things we can achieve, not those battles already lost.
[waits for maniacal tyrade from L2P and STR]
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GG,
Over 90% of crew have agreed to protected industrial action in the recent FAAA survey, so obviously crew are lying? Must have caught the 'lying disease' from Lesley Grant or Mark Hassell.
Airbus215 I don't think myself or L2P are being racist at all. I welcome any race to come and work for Qantas but they should be based in Australia.
Can you imagine BA crew if they tried to open a base in Australia? They would be on strike in a heart beat.
Over 90% of crew have agreed to protected industrial action in the recent FAAA survey, so obviously crew are lying? Must have caught the 'lying disease' from Lesley Grant or Mark Hassell.
Airbus215 I don't think myself or L2P are being racist at all. I welcome any race to come and work for Qantas but they should be based in Australia.
Can you imagine BA crew if they tried to open a base in Australia? They would be on strike in a heart beat.
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I don't doubt that 90% of crew did agree to protected industrial action in the survey. But it's probably on the basis of if nothing else works then let's give that a go.
Of the crew I know none have said they will strike. They believe the base is a forgone conclusion. Unfortunately with the Thai and Kiwi basings already there it doesn't leave much room for the argument against. The cap is the issue not the base itself.
It will be interesting to see what comes of it all in the end, hopefully an amicable ending for all involved.
Of the crew I know none have said they will strike. They believe the base is a forgone conclusion. Unfortunately with the Thai and Kiwi basings already there it doesn't leave much room for the argument against. The cap is the issue not the base itself.
It will be interesting to see what comes of it all in the end, hopefully an amicable ending for all involved.
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Racism???
You must be joking, RACISM???.Give me a break!Since when has Australians satirising POM`s been Racist.So Rugby Union is now racist?.This thread has now dipped to the lowest denominator of stupidity.Please, lets continue with some adult, informed debate instead of this purile nonsense.Some on this thread are treading water in the shallow end of the gene pool
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Surfside
what I actually said was:
"Australian jobs for Australians only? Sounds awfully racist to me."
I made no reference to satirising poms ...
Iwas refering to the statement way back in the thread about Australian jobs going to non Australians.
And lets not drag Rugby in to a debate on cabin crew ! After all Im sure you need little reminder of the last time Australia came head to head with the English!
what I actually said was:
"Australian jobs for Australians only? Sounds awfully racist to me."
I made no reference to satirising poms ...
Iwas refering to the statement way back in the thread about Australian jobs going to non Australians.
And lets not drag Rugby in to a debate on cabin crew ! After all Im sure you need little reminder of the last time Australia came head to head with the English!
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I agree, any race is welcome at QF, but the position should based in Australia-fair enough i think? but QF being a business like any other business, everything comes down to the dollar.
but good luck to everyone! those who go to the LHR base and those in Australia
but good luck to everyone! those who go to the LHR base and those in Australia
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str
"Airbus215 I don't think myself or L2P are being racist at all. I welcome any race to come and work for Qantas but they should be based in Australia."
So you'd be ok with 250 brits arriving in Australia next week and getting a job with QF would you? What happened to jobs in Australia for Australians, STR?
Make up your mind!
Airbus 215 you are spot on with your comments.
"Airbus215 I don't think myself or L2P are being racist at all. I welcome any race to come and work for Qantas but they should be based in Australia."
So you'd be ok with 250 brits arriving in Australia next week and getting a job with QF would you? What happened to jobs in Australia for Australians, STR?
Make up your mind!
Airbus 215 you are spot on with your comments.
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...
there is clearly some misleading figures being thrown around regarding the percentages of crew wanting to strike. The militant ones (aka STR and L2P) are adament that just about all the crew willing be walking ...i think they quoted 90%??
Time will tell wont it guys. And it wont be us "cubicle sitters" who will be quiet when everyone turns up to work..and the handful that dont will have loads of fixed termers beating down the door to go for a trip!
As for these "strike breakers"...how DUMB is the FAAA for announcing months ago they are looking at strike action. Geoff and his boys must be laughing at them and very appreciative that they had time to train up these people.
Time will tell wont it guys. And it wont be us "cubicle sitters" who will be quiet when everyone turns up to work..and the handful that dont will have loads of fixed termers beating down the door to go for a trip!
As for these "strike breakers"...how DUMB is the FAAA for announcing months ago they are looking at strike action. Geoff and his boys must be laughing at them and very appreciative that they had time to train up these people.
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Media Strategy
The announcement of an intended strike would appear to be part of a broader strategy.The media pays attention to the word "strike" and in turn this brings it to the attention of the public .Then what follows is some form of debate in a public forum.This is a strategy that companies like Qantas have used for years.....The spin doctors get in early and establish a one-sided(usually company)point of view.It also alerts the public to a potential disruption in air services and their holiday plans.(They can travel on other carriers)It therefore alleviates any negativity toward those who have chosen to withdraw their labour.Wildcat strikes engender enormous amounts of negativity and no sympathy whatsoever.It also hits the companies forward booking figures(and managerial incentive bonuses)thereby providing an impetus to a successful resolution .So rather than being "dumb"is it rather part of a broader intelligent plan.
Having been part of similar situations in the past the next step would perhaps focus on the share price and initiate media participation in driving it down.Ratty would soon take notice as it would impact on his share options.If done prudently it would not draw the wrath of any of the governing bodies.If Ratty was running the FAAA these are exactly the tactics he would employ.....but with somewhat more aggression as he is,like most CEOs,motivated primarily by self interest and unbounded ego.
Having been part of similar situations in the past the next step would perhaps focus on the share price and initiate media participation in driving it down.Ratty would soon take notice as it would impact on his share options.If done prudently it would not draw the wrath of any of the governing bodies.If Ratty was running the FAAA these are exactly the tactics he would employ.....but with somewhat more aggression as he is,like most CEOs,motivated primarily by self interest and unbounded ego.
Last edited by argusmoon; 15th Oct 2004 at 07:08.
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This info via International FAAA-
Please do not reply to this email. Send all correspondence to [email protected]
15 October 2004
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
EBA VII – SURVEY RESULTS
It is with great pleasure that I announce the results of the FAAA EBA VII Survey. The issues rated the most highly by Cabin Crew were:
•_ A Cap on overseas based crew
•_ Agreement on International Flying
•_ Maintenance of existing conditions
•_ A salary increase of between 5 – 6% per year
•_ Guarantee of no compulsory redundancies
In regard to specific questions posed in the survey, the results were as follows: -
•_ 92% of crew rated the performance of the FAAA as very good to fair
•_ 97% of crew rated the FAAA's communication as very good to fair
•_ 79% of crew felt that cabin crew management had no respect or minimal respect for them
•_ 87% of crew had no trust or minimal trust in cabin crew management
•_ 96% of crew are prepared to take legally protected industrial action to achieve EBA VII objectives
The participation rate for the survey was the highest ever and was a substantial majority of ALL Long Haul cabin crew. I thank crew for this unprecedented level of interest and for responding so overwhelmingly to the FAAA's call for you to participate in this crucial survey.
In terms of gender participation, 52% of respondents were males and 48% females, an excellent outcome and there were no appreciable differences in response to the various questions based on gender.
The survey results will now be used to form the basis of the negotiations with Qantas in relation to EBA VII discussions.
Perhaps the most heartening feature of the survey is that all members are strongly behind the FAAA's determined effort to achieve an acceptable new EBA. The survey also re-affirms the members' decisions taken in meetings in July that clearly show our crew will fight for their job security, rightful international flying and a proper wage outcome.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov , Divisional Secretary – International
Please do not reply to this email. Send all correspondence to [email protected]
15 October 2004
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
EBA VII – SURVEY RESULTS
It is with great pleasure that I announce the results of the FAAA EBA VII Survey. The issues rated the most highly by Cabin Crew were:
•_ A Cap on overseas based crew
•_ Agreement on International Flying
•_ Maintenance of existing conditions
•_ A salary increase of between 5 – 6% per year
•_ Guarantee of no compulsory redundancies
In regard to specific questions posed in the survey, the results were as follows: -
•_ 92% of crew rated the performance of the FAAA as very good to fair
•_ 97% of crew rated the FAAA's communication as very good to fair
•_ 79% of crew felt that cabin crew management had no respect or minimal respect for them
•_ 87% of crew had no trust or minimal trust in cabin crew management
•_ 96% of crew are prepared to take legally protected industrial action to achieve EBA VII objectives
The participation rate for the survey was the highest ever and was a substantial majority of ALL Long Haul cabin crew. I thank crew for this unprecedented level of interest and for responding so overwhelmingly to the FAAA's call for you to participate in this crucial survey.
In terms of gender participation, 52% of respondents were males and 48% females, an excellent outcome and there were no appreciable differences in response to the various questions based on gender.
The survey results will now be used to form the basis of the negotiations with Qantas in relation to EBA VII discussions.
Perhaps the most heartening feature of the survey is that all members are strongly behind the FAAA's determined effort to achieve an acceptable new EBA. The survey also re-affirms the members' decisions taken in meetings in July that clearly show our crew will fight for their job security, rightful international flying and a proper wage outcome.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov , Divisional Secretary – International
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Have a friend who is taking the opportunity to go to the LHR base. Have another friend flying in the UK and advised her of the pay QF crew LHR based will be receiving. Quite easy to live on - I can't understand why so many people with QF in Australia feel the wages will be not enough to survive on! Come on. One person says something and everyone else agrees and uses the one imaginary fact that crew will be living on the London streets as a punching line to prevent people from making up their own minds. Nobody ever does any research on this site.
1. London base will open ( as we all know)
2. Long Haul crew will continue to fly Long Haul ( maybe not London but from what I hear London flying will continue though not to present day allocations)
3. Long Haul crew aren't being sacked - they still have thier jobs
4. Yes, Long Haul crew when joining QF were advised they were employed in the Long Haul division , however I highly doubt the contract gave details of how many London trips an FA will receive and a "guarantee" of how much in allowances they will receive per year on the London trips. I am sure there was a base salary given and an " estimate/approximation" of the type / amount of allowances one would receive per year - BUT LONGHAUL CREW COMPLAINING OF A MAJOR DROP IN WAGES BECAUSE OF THE LOSS OF " ALLOWANCES" SHOULD HAVE DONE YOUR MATH - REMEMBER - BASE YOUR EXPENSES ON YOUR BASE SALARY and an "ESTIMATE" of your allowances AND YOU WON'T GO WRONG- DON'T SPEND MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD" - Maybe you all should have thought of this.
5. YOU STILL HAVE JOBS ( How would you feel if you were made redundant??- never say never)
6. THE FAAA HAS NO COMPETITION AGAINST QANTAS. The FAAA is a union, they do not run the company.
7. GOOD LUCK , but stop complaining so much, look at the bigger picture.
8. As for the request for guarantee of no compulsory redundancies in the future : NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE THIS. Nobody knows what is around the corner.
1. London base will open ( as we all know)
2. Long Haul crew will continue to fly Long Haul ( maybe not London but from what I hear London flying will continue though not to present day allocations)
3. Long Haul crew aren't being sacked - they still have thier jobs
4. Yes, Long Haul crew when joining QF were advised they were employed in the Long Haul division , however I highly doubt the contract gave details of how many London trips an FA will receive and a "guarantee" of how much in allowances they will receive per year on the London trips. I am sure there was a base salary given and an " estimate/approximation" of the type / amount of allowances one would receive per year - BUT LONGHAUL CREW COMPLAINING OF A MAJOR DROP IN WAGES BECAUSE OF THE LOSS OF " ALLOWANCES" SHOULD HAVE DONE YOUR MATH - REMEMBER - BASE YOUR EXPENSES ON YOUR BASE SALARY and an "ESTIMATE" of your allowances AND YOU WON'T GO WRONG- DON'T SPEND MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD" - Maybe you all should have thought of this.
5. YOU STILL HAVE JOBS ( How would you feel if you were made redundant??- never say never)
6. THE FAAA HAS NO COMPETITION AGAINST QANTAS. The FAAA is a union, they do not run the company.
7. GOOD LUCK , but stop complaining so much, look at the bigger picture.
8. As for the request for guarantee of no compulsory redundancies in the future : NOBODY CAN GUARANTEE THIS. Nobody knows what is around the corner.
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Jasmin..P.27
On Page 27 of this thread there is a very good synopsis by Mach2male which will hopefully provide you with a more informed perspective of what this entire forum is all about.You should read it before making any more unfounded emotional assertions.
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PD - Would rather have the English arriving here and working for QF than them working in the UK for QF. At least here they would be Australian residents/citizens and paying into the system.
Jasmin - Have you tried getting a mortgage in Sydney based on our basic wage? The banks would laugh at you and offer a mortgage only high enough for a bedsit in Penrith. I agree though that nothing is guaranteed but its the way Qantas have gone about doing this. Sneaky, spiteful and lies.
As for a guarantee on redundancies, we are asking for a guarantee that overseas bases would be closed first should times get tough. Why should Australian's lose their jobs and the overseas based crew keep theres? Fair, I think.
And yes the FAAA are a union and don't run the company, but you only have to look at past industrial relation matters to find the people who work for the company can have huge affects on decisions made by managers. Just will be a bit more difficult with the current Qantas managers because they have huge bonuses to look forward to.
Its also up to anyone who takes the London base to research just how expensive it is to live there. When I lived there last, 9 years ago, I was making the same as Qantas are offering now. I lived in Chelsea in a lovely 1 bed apartment and only had a few pounds for myself each week, after paying bills etc. What I am hearing from crew thinking of taking the base is that they will be able to fly off to Europe every week and have lots of hollidays. Thats not going to happen unless you have a bit of money saved already, I'm worried some crew will get there and get a big shock. They are then stuck in the UK for 2 years due to the contract they have signed.
Great to see the results from the FAAA being published. Huge support for industrial action on paper, thats a good sign.
I am not going to post to this board again. We shall wait and see what happens.....
Jasmin - Have you tried getting a mortgage in Sydney based on our basic wage? The banks would laugh at you and offer a mortgage only high enough for a bedsit in Penrith. I agree though that nothing is guaranteed but its the way Qantas have gone about doing this. Sneaky, spiteful and lies.
As for a guarantee on redundancies, we are asking for a guarantee that overseas bases would be closed first should times get tough. Why should Australian's lose their jobs and the overseas based crew keep theres? Fair, I think.
And yes the FAAA are a union and don't run the company, but you only have to look at past industrial relation matters to find the people who work for the company can have huge affects on decisions made by managers. Just will be a bit more difficult with the current Qantas managers because they have huge bonuses to look forward to.
Its also up to anyone who takes the London base to research just how expensive it is to live there. When I lived there last, 9 years ago, I was making the same as Qantas are offering now. I lived in Chelsea in a lovely 1 bed apartment and only had a few pounds for myself each week, after paying bills etc. What I am hearing from crew thinking of taking the base is that they will be able to fly off to Europe every week and have lots of hollidays. Thats not going to happen unless you have a bit of money saved already, I'm worried some crew will get there and get a big shock. They are then stuck in the UK for 2 years due to the contract they have signed.
Great to see the results from the FAAA being published. Huge support for industrial action on paper, thats a good sign.
I am not going to post to this board again. We shall wait and see what happens.....
Last edited by str; 15th Oct 2004 at 10:28.
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Str
Thats a shame we all appreciate, your experience and knowledge in this area along with L2P. I personally feel you guys are representing the majority of cc on this forum. Please continue to post dont let management win on prune!!
Thats a shame we all appreciate, your experience and knowledge in this area along with L2P. I personally feel you guys are representing the majority of cc on this forum. Please continue to post dont let management win on prune!!
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Sima
Sima
In your last post you describe yourself as a Qantas cubicle sitter. AKA Qantas management your post is offensive nastie, cattie and unprofessional and represents a poor reflection of Qantas as a responsible corporate citizen, remember not everybody who reads this forum works for Qantas.
L1A
In your last post you describe yourself as a Qantas cubicle sitter. AKA Qantas management your post is offensive nastie, cattie and unprofessional and represents a poor reflection of Qantas as a responsible corporate citizen, remember not everybody who reads this forum works for Qantas.
L1A
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L1A I think sima was just being ironic. it appears anyone who opposes the FAAA union line on this thread is automatically regarded as some management stooge. Ridiculous really.