QF LCC, Erosion of condition, and the FAAA
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"doom and gloom, doom and gloom"
I would just like to say that NOTHING GOOD WILL COME FROM THIS LOW COST CARRIER! Not for me, you, staff or customers. We are all f##ked! End of story. Qantas do not need to be doing this. They are making tons of money now. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Why isn't a record profit enough??? No one wins from this except shareholders and management with their bonuses. I hope this blows up in their faces.
GalleyHag -
Remember Impulse had staff travel only on VQ operated services (as NJS with theirs) until about 10 months after the buy out. I have no doubt that AO staff will recieve full staff travel at some late stage. It is just like dangling carrots in front of donkies. When the enthusiasm and morales wears off management 'give' something more to their staff.
What did you think of my last post re. the different awards for each operation? Hope it wasn't too confusing. Keen for your thoughts. PM me if you like.
QFskywalker -
"I do hope for the sake of our impulse mates that if they are the new LCC that some good management is put in place to lead these guys through a very big change."
Ha ha! As much as I love my job now... (And I really do!) Impulse couldn't organise a root in a brothel. They have never once instigated a change in procedure, for instance, and done a trial or thought about how it will really work. Never. Not once. I could name many a times but this is ofcourse a public forum. I will say our changeover to Qantas flying wasn't even handled at all! We were left to our own devices. "Here you go kids... Some food carts, a couple of bars (you don't have keys for) and some ovens. Off you go!" It was a MAJOR embarassement and we FAs were the ones that looked like fools and abused by pax. I witnessed FAs crying almost daily until we picked up enough to look like we knew what we were doing. Long Haul commuters used to travel in uniform so they could help us. How embarassing! This WILL end in tears.
Great...Galley -
Kiss goodbye to the overnights you love so much and the $$ they bring. Kiss good bye to reasonable work practices and conditions once this EBA runs out. Impulse is Impulse and I am afraid we may just be going back to the way things were. Not that we ever did before but you may just have to clean toilets and vacuum the floors. Perhaps you may have to sleep on the aircraft as the rumours go... It never happened but now management have the idea who knows? Say good bye to the glamour of flying. As a practise why don't you start selling softdrinks for $2 on the bus. That's what working for a LCC is like. Been there done that. Not fabulous.
I have some questions....
OK so the LCC will compete against QF and QFLink. If Impulse becomes the LCC then what subsidiary / divsion will fly routes like BNE-MKY, BNE-ROK, BNE-ISA SYD/MEL-HBA and SYD/MEL-LST??? Qantas needs a premium service on these routes for its corporate contracts which is many pax on the ISA, ROK and MKY routes. NJS have just closed down their East Coast bases almost completely. Who will fly these routes? I can't imagine NJS being quick to start up bases again after burning some many staff. And can they justify the expense of doing it all again???
I imagine Qantas mainline could pick up HBA routes and LST at a stretch but what about all the other 'premium' regional jet flying? Will we see some 717s retained for those routes? I want answers! Perhaps some new jets for NJS but that is years off.
Also Qantas is so keen to say "no earning points, no preferred seating for frequent flyers..." Mr Dixon you need to realise that these pax are your bread and butter. You need to treat these people well. The LCCs owned by majors in the US allow their frequent flyers full amenities in respect to their LCCs, including earning points.
Oh and the whole no seat allocation thing... The pax can't seat themselves now and we tell them where to sit! It will be caos and abuse for cabin crew! No ground staff to blame this time!
Qantas is already an LCC! I hate to see just how poor the product offering is to pax on the new airline. One can only dream! I want no part of this. I would rather scab off my partner or go back to working at St George bank. Yup. $31K pa for working 40 hour weeks... At least they knew how to treat their staff.
Centrelink. Even they treat you better. What an unfortunate and upsetting reality.
Perhaps this new LCC could be called:
SCREWED "Our staff and you - SCREWED" or perhaps;
BENdover Air " Yup. Get Ready."
End of rant. Going to look at the classifieds before I lower myself to being abused by my employer again. Once bitten, twice shy. I am not as stupid as I look. Been flying three years and at the age of 23 my career is about to go backwards. Not fabulous.
The beginning hasn't even begun. You brainwashed people who think this is a good thing have no idea.
GalleyHag -
Remember Impulse had staff travel only on VQ operated services (as NJS with theirs) until about 10 months after the buy out. I have no doubt that AO staff will recieve full staff travel at some late stage. It is just like dangling carrots in front of donkies. When the enthusiasm and morales wears off management 'give' something more to their staff.
What did you think of my last post re. the different awards for each operation? Hope it wasn't too confusing. Keen for your thoughts. PM me if you like.
QFskywalker -
"I do hope for the sake of our impulse mates that if they are the new LCC that some good management is put in place to lead these guys through a very big change."
Ha ha! As much as I love my job now... (And I really do!) Impulse couldn't organise a root in a brothel. They have never once instigated a change in procedure, for instance, and done a trial or thought about how it will really work. Never. Not once. I could name many a times but this is ofcourse a public forum. I will say our changeover to Qantas flying wasn't even handled at all! We were left to our own devices. "Here you go kids... Some food carts, a couple of bars (you don't have keys for) and some ovens. Off you go!" It was a MAJOR embarassement and we FAs were the ones that looked like fools and abused by pax. I witnessed FAs crying almost daily until we picked up enough to look like we knew what we were doing. Long Haul commuters used to travel in uniform so they could help us. How embarassing! This WILL end in tears.
Great...Galley -
Kiss goodbye to the overnights you love so much and the $$ they bring. Kiss good bye to reasonable work practices and conditions once this EBA runs out. Impulse is Impulse and I am afraid we may just be going back to the way things were. Not that we ever did before but you may just have to clean toilets and vacuum the floors. Perhaps you may have to sleep on the aircraft as the rumours go... It never happened but now management have the idea who knows? Say good bye to the glamour of flying. As a practise why don't you start selling softdrinks for $2 on the bus. That's what working for a LCC is like. Been there done that. Not fabulous.
I have some questions....
OK so the LCC will compete against QF and QFLink. If Impulse becomes the LCC then what subsidiary / divsion will fly routes like BNE-MKY, BNE-ROK, BNE-ISA SYD/MEL-HBA and SYD/MEL-LST??? Qantas needs a premium service on these routes for its corporate contracts which is many pax on the ISA, ROK and MKY routes. NJS have just closed down their East Coast bases almost completely. Who will fly these routes? I can't imagine NJS being quick to start up bases again after burning some many staff. And can they justify the expense of doing it all again???
I imagine Qantas mainline could pick up HBA routes and LST at a stretch but what about all the other 'premium' regional jet flying? Will we see some 717s retained for those routes? I want answers! Perhaps some new jets for NJS but that is years off.
Also Qantas is so keen to say "no earning points, no preferred seating for frequent flyers..." Mr Dixon you need to realise that these pax are your bread and butter. You need to treat these people well. The LCCs owned by majors in the US allow their frequent flyers full amenities in respect to their LCCs, including earning points.
Oh and the whole no seat allocation thing... The pax can't seat themselves now and we tell them where to sit! It will be caos and abuse for cabin crew! No ground staff to blame this time!
Qantas is already an LCC! I hate to see just how poor the product offering is to pax on the new airline. One can only dream! I want no part of this. I would rather scab off my partner or go back to working at St George bank. Yup. $31K pa for working 40 hour weeks... At least they knew how to treat their staff.
Centrelink. Even they treat you better. What an unfortunate and upsetting reality.
Perhaps this new LCC could be called:
SCREWED "Our staff and you - SCREWED" or perhaps;
BENdover Air " Yup. Get Ready."
End of rant. Going to look at the classifieds before I lower myself to being abused by my employer again. Once bitten, twice shy. I am not as stupid as I look. Been flying three years and at the age of 23 my career is about to go backwards. Not fabulous.
The beginning hasn't even begun. You brainwashed people who think this is a good thing have no idea.
Last edited by ditzyboy; 22nd Nov 2003 at 15:06.
Incredible
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ditz,
Your outburst is warranted. I am in the same age bracket as you and as I have previously said on this forum 1000 times I've wanted this as a career my whole life. We ARE being screwed and we are YET to be screwed further.
Do we stick with QF and work for their LCC with a CEO who doesn't care about his staff or work for a LCC (i.e-DJ) with a CEO who does ?
Choice seems clear to me......oh and look, DJ just advertised in todays paper for direct entry cabin supervisors - min 12months flying with any airline. Screw them before they screw you I say.
Your outburst is warranted. I am in the same age bracket as you and as I have previously said on this forum 1000 times I've wanted this as a career my whole life. We ARE being screwed and we are YET to be screwed further.
Do we stick with QF and work for their LCC with a CEO who doesn't care about his staff or work for a LCC (i.e-DJ) with a CEO who does ?
Choice seems clear to me......oh and look, DJ just advertised in todays paper for direct entry cabin supervisors - min 12months flying with any airline. Screw them before they screw you I say.
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C'mon everyone...how old are we? 
Have your tantrums elsewhere
We dont know anything yet, speculation and rumour leads only to tears.
Not everybody will be satisfied as to the outcome im sure. Y'all need to get over it, concentrate on the career you have now, and if your not happy, leave...simple
Hope I dont offend. Please..lets try to be positive...
Over it and out........
Have your tantrums elsewhere
We dont know anything yet, speculation and rumour leads only to tears.
Not everybody will be satisfied as to the outcome im sure. Y'all need to get over it, concentrate on the career you have now, and if your not happy, leave...simple
Hope I dont offend. Please..lets try to be positive...
Over it and out........
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Hi All,
As an ex AN MAM casual I gotta agree with those of you who say we need to be united here.
I did not do any of the flying the company tried to trick us in to doing earlier this year. Not even the 10 hours training for 747conversion.
I, however am not a single parent with more than one child to feed, clothe, house and educate.
Some of the MAM people struggled more than you can imagine with their decision because of their loyalty to you, their colleagues.
Their children came first obviously as there were so few hours at times most of us have 2nd and yes, even third jobs.
Let's work together so no one has to ever be put in that postion again.
As an ex AN MAM casual I gotta agree with those of you who say we need to be united here.
I did not do any of the flying the company tried to trick us in to doing earlier this year. Not even the 10 hours training for 747conversion.
I, however am not a single parent with more than one child to feed, clothe, house and educate.
Some of the MAM people struggled more than you can imagine with their decision because of their loyalty to you, their colleagues.
Their children came first obviously as there were so few hours at times most of us have 2nd and yes, even third jobs.
Let's work together so no one has to ever be put in that postion again.
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bring on the lcc
starting a lcc in melbourne is a good thing, there are a lot of us young people who want to start work in the airline industry and dont care about pay... so bring on the lcc you people sound a tad like ur taking ur jobs for granted...
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andyman_82,
I cant see you making many friends on a board like this with comments like those. From what ive read these people aren’t taking their jobs for granted, they are worried about the conditions and pay that they and their colleagues have worked very very hard to get.
While the LCC may provide jobs for young people, what's going to happen in a few years when you realise that its a hard job and worth more than the peanuts you were willing to be paid at the start. and while your at it If your willing to take lower pay, why not take lower conditions as well? Lets chuck in a few more trips a day?
Just remember one day you will care about the pay, and who will be to blame? it wont be the people who are 'taking their jobs for granted'.
Time to stand united - Come on FAAA, Crash Tackle Skimpy !
I cant see you making many friends on a board like this with comments like those. From what ive read these people aren’t taking their jobs for granted, they are worried about the conditions and pay that they and their colleagues have worked very very hard to get.
While the LCC may provide jobs for young people, what's going to happen in a few years when you realise that its a hard job and worth more than the peanuts you were willing to be paid at the start. and while your at it If your willing to take lower pay, why not take lower conditions as well? Lets chuck in a few more trips a day?
Just remember one day you will care about the pay, and who will be to blame? it wont be the people who are 'taking their jobs for granted'.
Time to stand united - Come on FAAA, Crash Tackle Skimpy !
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naive naive naive
andyman_82,
I am only 3 years older than you so I am classed as young and new to the industry and I can tell you that no-one else shares the same opinion as you.
If you don't care about money and conditions and only care about flying for a couple of years so you can get it on "with some hot shelia hosties " (because you have the idea that being the only straight bloke on the plane might make it easier to score **rolls eyes**) then please research working for another airline other than QF.
We on this board are career flight attendants - ANY career flight attendant would care about wages and conditions and never take their job for granted - HENCE OUR REASON FOR BEING ON THIS BULLETIN BOARD.
You obviously don't want a lifelong career as a flight attendant - otherwise you would be interested in preserving our conditions to ensure you have a long lasting career rather than becoming another "easyjet" "ryanair" 12month burn out and resign statistic.
Think about it mate
I am only 3 years older than you so I am classed as young and new to the industry and I can tell you that no-one else shares the same opinion as you.
If you don't care about money and conditions and only care about flying for a couple of years so you can get it on "with some hot shelia hosties " (because you have the idea that being the only straight bloke on the plane might make it easier to score **rolls eyes**) then please research working for another airline other than QF.
We on this board are career flight attendants - ANY career flight attendant would care about wages and conditions and never take their job for granted - HENCE OUR REASON FOR BEING ON THIS BULLETIN BOARD.
You obviously don't want a lifelong career as a flight attendant - otherwise you would be interested in preserving our conditions to ensure you have a long lasting career rather than becoming another "easyjet" "ryanair" 12month burn out and resign statistic.
Think about it mate
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hmmm everything seems like i've just wasted the last 12 months breaking my back to try and get into a brighter future with Qantas. Money isn't everything but seriously how underpaid are people getting!!!
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my apologies
oops didnt mean to cause such a contraversy, my apologies.
however you do need to learn to accept change its a part of any job
and qf what would you know about what i want to do in my life stop making harsh assumptions.
btw im not arguing with you guys im supporting you i think you should put ur words to action and speak up.. good luck with that
however you do need to learn to accept change its a part of any job
and qf what would you know about what i want to do in my life stop making harsh assumptions.
btw im not arguing with you guys im supporting you i think you should put ur words to action and speak up.. good luck with that
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Andyman just further to your statement about 'taking your jobs for granted'. On the contrary, we are not taking our jobs for granted, we are trying to protect our employment conditions; not only for ourselves but for any future employee! This means you!
I am all for a LCC if it creates more and better opportunities without sacrificing the livelihood of other people currently in the industry. Personally, I don't think that's being selfish or resistant to change.
There is still so much we don't know about the LCC, but I do know that my colleagues in all divisions are getting nervous about their level of job security. That feeling of uncertainty is not pleasant and should not be dismissed as being "resistant to change" by someone who himself is trying to get into the industry and asks for help from the very people that he is criticising!
SG
I am all for a LCC if it creates more and better opportunities without sacrificing the livelihood of other people currently in the industry. Personally, I don't think that's being selfish or resistant to change.
There is still so much we don't know about the LCC, but I do know that my colleagues in all divisions are getting nervous about their level of job security. That feeling of uncertainty is not pleasant and should not be dismissed as being "resistant to change" by someone who himself is trying to get into the industry and asks for help from the very people that he is criticising!
SG
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SG
What we do know is that Geoff Dixon has said that he will
cut the overall costs at Qantas by 1 Billion dollars over 2 yrs,
at least half will be labour costs, you have every reason to be nervous.
Wirraway
What we do know is that Geoff Dixon has said that he will
cut the overall costs at Qantas by 1 Billion dollars over 2 yrs,
at least half will be labour costs, you have every reason to be nervous.
Wirraway
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andyman_82
You have NO idea about this industry. So don't try and sit there at home writing your opinion on this company when you probably couldn't even organise a root in a brothel!
its people like you who say " ild do anything to get into qantas , (lower pay, lower conditions)" that stuff, makes it difficult for us the employees around EBA time, when where trying to protect the current conditions and improve the conditions for future employees..... YOU!!! . I dont know where you work at the moment but how would you react if people said you dont deserve the money you recieve. you should work another 10 hours a week for NO more incentives?...................... Yeh i thought so..
Why dont you put your money where your mouth is , and submit an application to Eastern ( Qantaslink) where you too can work 135 hours a month on a single flight attendant operation DASH 8 a/c, for the whole sum of 27,000.00.
signing off . Johnny
You have NO idea about this industry. So don't try and sit there at home writing your opinion on this company when you probably couldn't even organise a root in a brothel!
its people like you who say " ild do anything to get into qantas , (lower pay, lower conditions)" that stuff, makes it difficult for us the employees around EBA time, when where trying to protect the current conditions and improve the conditions for future employees..... YOU!!! . I dont know where you work at the moment but how would you react if people said you dont deserve the money you recieve. you should work another 10 hours a week for NO more incentives?...................... Yeh i thought so..
Why dont you put your money where your mouth is , and submit an application to Eastern ( Qantaslink) where you too can work 135 hours a month on a single flight attendant operation DASH 8 a/c, for the whole sum of 27,000.00.
signing off . Johnny
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She's Great in the Galley and Mr Seatback have both expressed concern over my apparant bad attitude re. the LCC. I would like to apologise to anyone who may have been offended or disheartened by my comments. I am entitled to express my opinion. I also wish to make my fellow colleagues, many of whom were not around in the days of the ACC Unit Trust arrangement, aware of just what it was like and what to what we WILL be going back. That's right. Our working environment will get worse. Morale will drop and everyone will be fatugued. Negative? Yes. Realistic? Yes.
I find it interesting that those who have stated my comments were "too doom and gloom" were not around to experience the 'living fatigue' that was Impulse/ACC and the financial impoverisment it brought. Not one of the Pulse FAs I have come across that is positive about the LCC was around for the Unit Trust debacle. Not one. What does that tell you? Ignorance is bliss.
Let's take a look at this month's rosters. Notice a few patterns ex MEL and HBA have 5 sectors (operate 4, pax 1). A few 11 hr 30 min patterns exist with a paxing sector. Resource Planning are testing things out already. Let me tell you how fatiguing a four sector 0530am SYD-MEL is when you do it 6 days on, one off then all over again. Burn out sets in after about a month then you just become a zombie with a number.
Mr Seatback you would be able to appreciate the concern shown by FAs when fatiguing duties are rostered. Well this will become every duty. Impulse will max out duty hours because they can. They could do it now but they don't. It isn't viable because crew burn out. Being a LCC changes everything. Saving as many $$ as possible becomes an obsession for the company, regardless of what it means for crew. Take VirginBlue's recent resignation rate as an example.
Why is it that fellow Linkers at SSA and EAA and some at Short Haul can see my view? Yet my own colleagues are blissfully unaware of what Impulse is doing to their futures. We are being sold out by our management. The leaders of the 'Impulse family' that they like to call us are selling us out. They continue to publish that Impulse Takeoff piece of c##p that does nothing but spread propaganda, false hope and ignorance. The first four editions say absolutely NOTHING and are almost the same wording. I am not an idiot and I don't buy it.
Why is it every edition says to begin "...continue to focus on the task at hand by providing quality service and the highest safety standards." May as well say "Brace. Brace Brace." I also find it interesting that every edition ends with the contact details for EAP. Take the hint and put it in your speed dial, Kids.
Now the money. I will be on $39 323 base. What allowances will I earn? Shoe allowance and overtime after 9 hours. I might get $42 K before tax. That is much less than I get now. Why should I be happy about the change? The standard of our working conditions will be less (no overnights, all four sector days will become standard) and I will get less money. Excuse me for not being ecstatic.
Then our EBA will run out in 2005. Then what? Nothing will improve. Things will only get worse. Thank goodness we got a three year award and not the one year that the ex-AN people wanted! Otherwise we would really be screwed. EAA just got screwed over and SSA is about to. Seeing a pattern? I wouldn't mind betting that crossing seat belts (as we do already) becomes the least of our worries. 'Dressing' toilets and vaccuming floors isn't my style. 25 minute turn arounds? It will end in tears.
Mr Seatback and Great...Galley: you have never worked in a LCC environment where every day is four sectors, 10 hours long and you do six in a row. I challenge you to show me a roster where you have worked as such repeatedly. Let me show you my Impulse/ACC rosters. You get fatigued just by looking at them! 58 hours covering 24 sectors in six days. Repeated after one day off. All early starts. Not fabulous.
I know that many people in the industry live these conditions daily. Are they happy about it? Nope. Why sit back at let our decent conditions erode away?
Sad thing is maybe Mr Seatback and Great...Galley do have a point. Why am I trying to change people's minds? It will happen whether we like it or not and people such as Andyman_82 will do it anyway. As I said before. We are all screwed.
Andyman_82 -
Mate I don't blame you one bit for what you said. That's how airlines can continue to exploit their existing employees. Young hopefuls willing to work for peanuts. That's exactly how Impulse/ACC ran. If anything your post (and people's reactions) has been a valuable lesson to those that don't understand what it is like to be abused by their employer.
I find it interesting that those who have stated my comments were "too doom and gloom" were not around to experience the 'living fatigue' that was Impulse/ACC and the financial impoverisment it brought. Not one of the Pulse FAs I have come across that is positive about the LCC was around for the Unit Trust debacle. Not one. What does that tell you? Ignorance is bliss.
Let's take a look at this month's rosters. Notice a few patterns ex MEL and HBA have 5 sectors (operate 4, pax 1). A few 11 hr 30 min patterns exist with a paxing sector. Resource Planning are testing things out already. Let me tell you how fatiguing a four sector 0530am SYD-MEL is when you do it 6 days on, one off then all over again. Burn out sets in after about a month then you just become a zombie with a number.
Mr Seatback you would be able to appreciate the concern shown by FAs when fatiguing duties are rostered. Well this will become every duty. Impulse will max out duty hours because they can. They could do it now but they don't. It isn't viable because crew burn out. Being a LCC changes everything. Saving as many $$ as possible becomes an obsession for the company, regardless of what it means for crew. Take VirginBlue's recent resignation rate as an example.
Why is it that fellow Linkers at SSA and EAA and some at Short Haul can see my view? Yet my own colleagues are blissfully unaware of what Impulse is doing to their futures. We are being sold out by our management. The leaders of the 'Impulse family' that they like to call us are selling us out. They continue to publish that Impulse Takeoff piece of c##p that does nothing but spread propaganda, false hope and ignorance. The first four editions say absolutely NOTHING and are almost the same wording. I am not an idiot and I don't buy it.
Why is it every edition says to begin "...continue to focus on the task at hand by providing quality service and the highest safety standards." May as well say "Brace. Brace Brace." I also find it interesting that every edition ends with the contact details for EAP. Take the hint and put it in your speed dial, Kids.
Now the money. I will be on $39 323 base. What allowances will I earn? Shoe allowance and overtime after 9 hours. I might get $42 K before tax. That is much less than I get now. Why should I be happy about the change? The standard of our working conditions will be less (no overnights, all four sector days will become standard) and I will get less money. Excuse me for not being ecstatic.
Then our EBA will run out in 2005. Then what? Nothing will improve. Things will only get worse. Thank goodness we got a three year award and not the one year that the ex-AN people wanted! Otherwise we would really be screwed. EAA just got screwed over and SSA is about to. Seeing a pattern? I wouldn't mind betting that crossing seat belts (as we do already) becomes the least of our worries. 'Dressing' toilets and vaccuming floors isn't my style. 25 minute turn arounds? It will end in tears.
Mr Seatback and Great...Galley: you have never worked in a LCC environment where every day is four sectors, 10 hours long and you do six in a row. I challenge you to show me a roster where you have worked as such repeatedly. Let me show you my Impulse/ACC rosters. You get fatigued just by looking at them! 58 hours covering 24 sectors in six days. Repeated after one day off. All early starts. Not fabulous.
I know that many people in the industry live these conditions daily. Are they happy about it? Nope. Why sit back at let our decent conditions erode away?
Sad thing is maybe Mr Seatback and Great...Galley do have a point. Why am I trying to change people's minds? It will happen whether we like it or not and people such as Andyman_82 will do it anyway. As I said before. We are all screwed.
Andyman_82 -
Mate I don't blame you one bit for what you said. That's how airlines can continue to exploit their existing employees. Young hopefuls willing to work for peanuts. That's exactly how Impulse/ACC ran. If anything your post (and people's reactions) has been a valuable lesson to those that don't understand what it is like to be abused by their employer.