Did I mention no checklists? I trained a few years ago with another knuckleheads who didn't use checklists...imagine my shock when it turns out his flight department was involved in a somewhat high profile multi-fatality accodent?! It boggles my mind...how lazy and unprofessional do you have to be to not read & respond for 5-10 seconds?! Did they forget ANY ITEM required and covered by the CL ? Flaps, Gear ? |
They shouldn't have tried to land, since the entire approach was unstable.
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
(Post 10845870)
They shouldn't have tried to land, since the entire approach was unstable.
They were definitely too fast but the approach seems reasonably stable... |
If you have to fly the entire approach on idle thrust, something is more than just wrong. Period.
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Originally Posted by formulaben
(Post 10843631)
Anyway, reading that was downright scary. Collision with the ditch at the end had to hurt but more importantly looking at the pictures it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how the cyclone fence could have also blocked all exit from the aircraft. This could have been way worse. |
"Airspeed management was a significant issue..."
Doesn't the Textron/Garmin data show that at approximately 500' AGL, the airspeed was 170 KIAS?
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/64000-64...015/637211.pdf Anyone think that Vref +60 with throttles still at idle is stabilized? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6ef85830da.png https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2bab898224.png |
Originally Posted by Zeffy
(Post 10839612)
Impressive review and summary:
Engineering Review of Data Vref+19; throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52; no speed-brake deployment at touchdown; bounce lasted 9.4 seconds. So he entered high 'total energy' condition. To avoid and/or exit that condition, he has few options: - Plan the final approach with reduced speed. The report suggests 160 KIAS. - Interrupt descent to reach gear and flap speed. After intercept glide path from above. - perform a 360' to reduce total energy and reach the stabilised condition - if unsuccessfully notice a non stabilised approach, perform a go-around In my opinion, after the flare, some confusion arrived. Firstly let me highlight, the report proofs; at Vref=119 the available runway was sufficient to stop the aircraft with brakes only that day. The first touchdown was at 3 wheels simultaneous, with 1,4 G and at a relatively low angle of attack. Under that condition, the aircraft likely bounces immediately. I learned it that way: -the PM considering: on the ground, then extend the speed brake. -the PF considers stable on the ground, then activate reverser. No rush needed. I miss the call outs from PM. His first call was about the CAS-message, 9 seconds after bounce? I haven't read the transcript yet. The pilot was in doubt about the position of the TR but I reckon his problem was the proper handling of a bounce. I learned it that way: If push the airplane down, it will bounce again, likely to higher. In a subsequent bounce, structural limits are easy exceeded. So, stabilize the airplane, execute a second landing. Flare normal. If in doubt, do a go-around. Of course, as long as the AFM prohibits TR in the air and speed-brakes with full flaps, the position needs to be checked and set to the stored position. After the 3. bounce, airplane condition has to assumed as not airworthy, an emergency stop has to apply. |
Originally Posted by Zeffy
(Post 10846809)
Doesn't the Textron/Garmin data show that at approximately 500' AGL, the airspeed was 170 KIAS?
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/64000-64...015/637211.pdf Anyone think that Vref +60 with throttles still at idle is stabilized? https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6ef85830da.png |
Originally Posted by rak64
(Post 10846876)
...The first touchdown was at 3 wheels simultaneous, with 1,4 G and at a relatively low angle of attack. Under that condition, the aircraft likely bounces immediately. I learned it that way:
-the PM considering: on the ground, then extend the speed brake. -the PF considers stable on the ground, then activate reverser.. The C680 cockpit layout doesn't accommodate operation of the speedbrake lever from the RH seat particularly well. The lever would be fully forward at touchdown - requiring the right seat occupant to reach around the throttles to pull the lever aft. Yes, the bounce recovery was botched and made far more difficult by the T/R deployment. The extraordinarily high energy state throughout the approach was the core issue; the decision not to take it around was unprofessional; the mishandling of the speedbrakes and T/Rs assured a very bad result. Crew and pax were lucky; this one could have turned out far worse. More photos here: https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/64000-64...015/637208.pdf https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c2a0e7be4d.jpg |
Stable approach
Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10846047)
On what do you base this assessment?
They were definitely too fast but the approach seems reasonably stable... |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10845718)
So you read a checklist in between touchdown and T/R deployment ? You do take the time to get your emer checklist out for a bounced landing ?
Did they forget ANY ITEM required and covered by the CL ? Flaps, Gear ? |
Originally Posted by rjtjrt
(Post 10846323)
See Post 12 video. Doesn’t look like scud running.
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Originally Posted by atakacs
(Post 10846047)
On what do you base this assessment?
They were definitely too fast but the approach seems reasonably stable... |
NTSB Final Accident Report: https://t.co/CmmCiUTM7g?amp=1
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