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Greenville, SC Falcon 50 crash
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Falcon 50 crash at Greenville, South Carolina
The Daily Mail is reporting that the two pilots have died in a landing overrun accident at Greenville, South Carolina. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...jet-crash.html
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Very sad outcome... The two pilots are dead and the 2 pax are in critical condition... More pictures...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...jet-crash.html |
Aircraft appears to have gone off the end of Rwy 19 at KGMU and over the embankment (most likely becoming airborne again in the process, judging from the damage) before coming down on the airport perimeter road adjacent to the (just visible) approach lights.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....12fc0bcae4.jpg Not a good place to overrun ... |
Looks like an overrun from a landing on 19. Weather ? Does 01 have EMAS in the overrun area ? |
Or undershoot ...
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Originally Posted by PEI_3721
(Post 10260589)
Looks like an overrun from a landing on 19. Weather ? Does 01 have EMAS in the overrun area ? |
If you run off the end of a runway in a Falcon it's not going to make you look good. A Falcon 50 will land about as short as a helicopter.
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Saw an interview with what looked like an reliable witness (yeah, I know) who said that the landing seemed perfectly normal but the aircraft just didn;t seem to slow down.
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From another aviation site... Shocking if true but then I'm not surprised at some part 91 operations in the USA.
I'm not sure where they got their information from... "I think the biggest head scratching part of this, is the credentials of the crew: SIC is a PPL with Multi Rating no instrument rating, no type rating PIC reportedly had an SIC rating only on the Da50 It appears as though the flight was a charter part 135 but the SIC is the owner of the airplane so part 91’d it. I think this accident might be a game changer in the exposure of a lack of oversight by the FAA of Part 91 operations and the credentials required to be flying biz jets. A sad day, but from seeing how some of these 91 operators go, its an inevitability for some." |
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
(Post 10261290)
From another aviation site... Shocking if true but then I'm not surprised at some part 91 operations in the USA.
I'm not sure where they got their information from... "I think the biggest head scratching part of this, is the credentials of the crew: SIC is a PPL with Multi Rating no instrument rating, no type rating PIC reportedly had an SIC rating only on the Da50 It appears as though the flight was a charter part 135 but the SIC is the owner of the airplane so part 91’d it. I think this accident might be a game changer in the exposure of a lack of oversight by the FAA of Part 91 operations and the credentials required to be flying biz jets. A sad day, but from seeing how some of these 91 operators go, its an inevitability for some." |
Here is the link to where the coroner identifies both pilots https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/09/27/plane-crash-reported-near-greenville-downtown-airport-injuries-reported/1444821002/
The coroner identified the pilot who does hold an ATP, but only has SIC privileges for the DA-50 (FAA Database) The coroner identified the copilot who does hold a Private certificate ASEL and AMEL. (FAA Database) |
WOW to say the least.
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Well, if the Owner was onboard then Darwin Rules worked, it is unfortunately tragic for everybody else.
f |
No experience with the FAA database whatsoever, how often/quickly is the database updated ? Suppose the dude was on the sim, say 3 weeks ago, would that be shown in the DB already ?
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Don't know
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10261807)
No experience with the FAA database whatsoever, how often/quickly is the database updated ? Suppose the dude was on the sim, say 3 weeks ago, would that be shown in the DB already ?
I would hope that he had completed a type course and the info is old. Same for the private pilot, non instrument rated copilot. Follow up. According to the FAA, they are updated monthly. https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certifi...rmen_download/ " We update these files monthly. The records in each database file are stored in either fixed length ASCII text format (TXT) or comma-delimited text format (CSV) which is already separated into airmen basic records and certificate records. Both formats can be manipulated by common database applications such as MS Access. " |
I get the impression that this sort of thing is not uncommon in general aviation. Airline pilots occasionally get their tickets pulled for lying on the medical and other things but I would be hard pressed to think of a case in recent memory where an airline pilot flew in the U.S, without a license or with a phony license. Years ago PBA and the Van Arsedale's got caught pencil whipping type ratings and flying a YS-11 without a license, has there been a major case come to light since then?
From a crash earlier this month: Surprising Details Emerge From Sunday’s Cessna 335 CrashNo one aboard the aircraft held a pilot’s certificate.
By Rob Mark September 13, 2018 A twin-engine Cessna 335 crashed last Sunday about 10:40 a.m. local time as it approached Florida’s Palm Beach County Park/Lantana Airport. The 335 is an unpressurized version of Cessna's once-popular Cessna 340. The pilot was last heard on a common traffic advisory frequency indicating he was making his turn to base leg for landing on runway 16. A few seconds later, the airplane hit the ground a mile northeast of the airport and was destroyed by a post-crash fire that claimed the lives of the two people aboard, pilot Philip Castronova and his wife Mandy. Weather at the time of the accident was reported as good visibility with light winds from the southwest. As if digging into the cause of the accident was not going to be tough enough for investigators since the aircraft most likely was not carrying a flight data recorder, nor would it have been required to under Part 91, but a reporter for the Palm Beach Post, Alexandra Seltzer, received a tip from an unnamed pilot about the status of Castronova’s pilot certificate. Following the lead, Steltzer learned that Philip Castronova’s did not hold a valid pilot certificate. In fact, the FAA reported Castronova’s certificate had been revoked in September 1997, for making fraudulent or intentionally false statements on his application for a medical certificate. The final data point recorded for the accident on Flight Aware indicated the aircraft was 400 feet above the ground flying at 117 knots, but with a vertical descent rate of nearly 1,000 fpm. https://www.flyingmag.com/palm-beach...-crash-details |
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10261847)
I get the impression that this sort of thing is not uncommon in general aviation. Airline pilots occasionally get their tickets pulled for lying on the medical and other things but I would be hard pressed to think of a case in recent memory where an airline pilot flew in the U.S, without a license or with a phony license. Years ago PBA and the Van Arsedale's got caught pencil whipping type ratings and flying a YS-11 without a license, has there been a major case come to light since then?
From a crash earlier this month: https://www.flyingmag.com/palm-beach...-crash-details |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10261807)
No experience with the FAA database whatsoever, how often/quickly is the database updated ? Suppose the dude was on the sim, say 3 weeks ago, would that be shown in the DB already ?
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The captain's medical date is shown in the FAA database as Aug 2018:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f6bec5d1f8.png Copilot - note the absence of an IFR rating: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6c5cbf0503.png |
Would the co-pilot need an instrument rating if the flight was under part 91?
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Yes, if they were on an instrument flight plan.
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Air America Flight Services
We offer Charter, Maintenance, Management and acquisition services in order to have the capabilities to encompass all of the needs of our customers. |
The FAA ATPL implicitly includes an Instrument Rating. A separate IR is not shown on the license.
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Copilot Instrument Rating
Originally Posted by MarcK
(Post 10262661)
The FAA ATPL implicitly includes an Instrument Rating. A separate IR is not shown on the license.
However that is not the case for an FAA PPL - apparently held by the copilot. |
The copilot is not PIC, so doesn't need an Instrument Rating. (of course, the pilot isn't rated to be PIC either, but that's part of the problem)
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Apparently the pilot had the rating the copilot should have had - DA50 SIC privileges only. Note this was a early aircraft, serial number 17 and probably not worth more than a few hundred thousand dollars. There has to be more to this sad story.
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Info
Originally Posted by MarcK
(Post 10262687)
The copilot is not PIC, so doesn't need an Instrument Rating. (of course, the pilot isn't rated to be PIC either, but that's part of the problem)
§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications. (a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and(3) At least a pilot type rating for the aircraft being flown unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within the United States airspace. |
About time someone pulled up 61.55. Also note that the aircraft was RVSM approved and thus operating at the upper flight levels.
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https://www.wspa.com/news/new-detail...ort/1490880802 This should confirm some of the above speculation. Who needs a license 🤓 |
That WSPA article has been updated and no longer has any reference to the pilots' qualifications.
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Might be worth noting (1st hand knowledge), the PIC was fired from a a G-1159 job a few years back when CP found out he had lied about his hours and experience...
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Here's a video of the actual crash. He was going pretty fast off the end.
https://www.wyff4.com/article/exclus...rport/23570549 |
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver
(Post 10264521)
Here's a video of the actual crash. He was going pretty fast off the end.
https://www.wyff4.com/article/exclus...rport/23570549 |
Unfortunately the wyff4 video is not available in UK.
LiveLeak version for interested parties this side of the pond: Greenville FA-50 crash - LiveLeak |
Landing Roll
Originally Posted by B-757
(Post 10264587)
..Appears to be trailing smoke also, as they go off the end..
I think it had an FDR and VR installed. |
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver
(Post 10264934)
Just after the video starts, there is a flash under the wing. They may have used the emergency brake, which has no anti-skid.
I think it had an FDR and VR installed. I think the flash was the wingtip making contact with the runway. |
Seems to be about 40kts too fast to me ON the runway. And regarding 91/135? If you knew the truth about what goes on in these organisations you would live in a bunker undergound. There are NOT enough FAA inspectors or FISDO to cope. Each inspector has many, many organisations to oversee and favors are rife to decrease the workload...Sorry, but it is completely true so don't come back with your whinging.
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