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-   Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. (https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc-36/)
-   -   N26DK Premier 1A crash Mar 17 2013 KSBN (https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/510474-n26dk-premier-1a-crash-mar-17-2013-ksbn.html)

galaxy flyer 28th Mar 2013 02:21

LED = Leading Edge Device, aka slats or flaps. None on Premiers.

GF

maestrogn 28th Mar 2013 10:57

Thanks for the acronym
 
Thanks, GF. I know the leading edge devices and also the non-aviation use of LED ... never connected the letters. Thanks for the help.

I'd still like to know why this incident has so little interest. I would imagine that small jet pilots would be all over it to learn from it.

mGN

His dudeness 28th Mar 2013 12:59


I would imagine that small jet pilots would be all over it to learn from it.
It happened 11 days ago and beside the fact that they crashed there is little to none additional information available yet.

So, how do you think should "small jet pilots" learn from it? If there is an established reason after an thorough investigation I would guess the "small jet pilots" will be discussing and learning from "it".

Are you a pilot ?

maestrogn 28th Mar 2013 13:05

Dudeness
 
Love your site name.

Am an almost pilot -- never took training to completion.

Thanks for the reply.

mGN

His dudeness 28th Mar 2013 15:37

I didn`t mean to be disrespectful...I really just wondered.

A lot of accidents find their way into training, (into Crew resource management training and simulator scenarios etc.) but only when an investigation has been done. If this one sheds a new light it will be discussed.

Just makes no sense to do so when no hard facts apart from the wreckage is there...

maestrogn 28th Mar 2013 18:48

No umbrage
 
No umbrage taken. My question stemmed from the fact that on the commercial side of PPRuNe, there quite often is educated speculation prior to the investigation coming out. While often, when coming from non-pilots or from those who have no experience in the particular aircraft involved, the speculation is disturbing, some of the educated speculation causes one to think and a great deal can be learned. The recent crash in Moscow is an excellent example. When the official report finally comes out, comparing the speculation and my own thinking is a really great way to learn. In my field of voice research, I attend surgical discussions even though I am not a surgeon. After the discussion by the other surgeons, hearing what the presenting surgeon did and seeing its outcome is an incredible way to learn.

My life has seen my passion funneled into things other than flying (sailing, performing classical music, etc.) but my intense love of flying is still very much present. That love has been bolstered by the fact that my best friend was a Continental 76 driver and has, over the years, shared a great deal with me.

All best!

mGN

robbreid 5th Apr 2013 16:52

NTSB Identification: CEN13FA196
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, March 17, 2013 in South Bend, IN
Aircraft: Hawker Beechcraft Corporation 390, registration: N26DK
Injuries: 2 Fatal,3 Serious.


This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
On March 17, 2013, at 1623 eastern daylight time, a Hawker Beechcraft model 390 (Premier IA) business jet, N26DK, serial number RB-226, collided with three residential structures and terrain following an aborted landing attempt on runway 9R located at the South Bend Regional Airport (KSBN), South Bend, Indiana. The private pilot and pilot-rated-passenger occupying the cockpit seats were fatally injured. An additional two passengers and one individual on the ground sustained serious injuries. The airplane was registered to 7700 Enterprises of Montana, LLC and operated by Digicut Systems of Tulsa, Oklahoma, under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 while on an instrument flight plan. Day visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the business flight that departed Richard Lloyd Jones Jr. Airport (KRVS), Tulsa, Oklahoma, at 1358 central daylight time.

According to preliminary air traffic control information, at 1610:31, the accident pilot established radio communications with South Bend Approach Control while at 11,000 feet mean sea level (msl). The air traffic controller cleared the flight direct to KNUTE intersection and told the pilot to expect a visual approach to runway 9R. At 1611:44, the flight was cleared to descend to 10,000 feet msl. At 1613:06, the flight was cleared to 3,000 feet msl. At 1615:00, the approach controller told the pilot to make a 5-degree left turn to align with runway 9R and asked the pilot to report when he had the airport in sight. At 1615:07, the pilot declared an emergency because of a lack of engine power, reporting that they were "dead stick" and without any power. About 23 seconds later, at 1615:30, the pilot transmitted "we've lost all power, and we have no hydraulics." When the controller asked if the airplane remained controllable, the pilot replied "ah, barely controllable." The controller advised that all runways at KSBN were available for landing and issued the current winds, which were 130-degrees at 10 knots. At 1615:22, the pilot transmitted that the airplane’s navigational systems were inoperative and requested a radar vector toward the airport. The controller replied that the airport was 9 miles directly ahead of the airplane’s current position. At 1616:12, the controller told the pilot to turn 10-degrees left to intersect runway 9R. At 1616:15, the pilot replied "26DK, turning left." No additional voice communications were received from the accident airplane. The approach controller continued to transmit radar vectors toward runway 9R without any response from the accident pilot. At 1618:58, the approach controller told the accident airplane to go-around because the main landing gear was not extended. (The tower controller had informed the approach controller that only the nose landing gear was extended) The accident airplane was then observed to climb and enter a right traffic pattern for runway 9R. The airplane made another landing approach to runway 9R with only the nose landing gear extended. Several witnesses observed the airplane bounce several times on the runway before it ultimately entered a climbing right turn. The airplane was then observed to enter a nose low descent into a nearby residential community.

sevenstrokeroll 5th Apr 2013 19:35

interesting name for a company...7700?

interesting and thanks for posting!

robbreid 5th Apr 2013 21:59

Irony - the companies actual address is;

DigiCut Systems
7700 E 38TH ST
TULSA, OK 74145-3211

galaxy flyer 5th Apr 2013 23:52

Just speculation, but combining pilot's report of "we've lost all power" and "dead stick" plus the fact there was no fire equals no fuel. No hydraulics might explain no main landing gear.

GF

VFD 6th Apr 2013 01:18


Just speculation, but combining pilot's report of "we've lost all power" and "dead stick" plus the fact there was no fire equals no fuel. No hydraulics might explain no main landing gear.
That would be a thought however, earlier reports by the Asst. Fire Chief said there was a basement full of fuel in the home where the plane came to rest.
Also in earlier reports there was an electrical issue but nothing in the preliminary report address that situation.
Just not sure how you would have enough energy to make 2 unsuccessful approaches and do a go around for an attempted 3rd approach without some power coming from the turbines.

VFD

galaxy flyer 6th Apr 2013 01:49

VFD

I agree except explain the pilot's comments about being dead stick and no power?

GF

VFD 6th Apr 2013 02:04

Just a wild guess Galaxy, with electrical problems you might not have tank to engine fuel pumps. The donks could just be providing a small amount of thrust, and no electrics to operate the hydralic valves for the gear or idle engines providing full hydraulic power for the systems.
Just too little information at this point.

VFD

sevenstrokeroll 7th Apr 2013 23:20

now, I've never even been in one of these jets...they look small don't they?

anyway...in one transport I flew, if the electric fuel pumps are uncovered due to low fuel, OR because of electric failure there are minimum fuel levels for a goaround...as you point the nose up, the fuel sloshes back and uncovers the fuel ports.

just speculating here.

we even had MAX angles (attitude) for go arounds with certain amounts of fuel or pump problems.

I remember many years ago being taught if high to use a series of figure 8's on final (purpindicular to runway) as each turn turns you to the runway.

fwiw

robbreid 19th Apr 2013 22:18

More recordings of fatal South Bend plane crash released | ABC57 | South Bend IN News, Weather and Sports | Top Stories

avionimc 21st Apr 2013 18:09

Very interesting ATC communication.
  • Pilot reported no power and no hydraulics, aircraft barely controllable!
  • TWR ordered to GO AROUND! Because the gear was up.
In this case, with insight, gear up landing would have been much preferable.
Fully aware of the emergency, instead of ordering a go around - with a clear voice of authority - the controller would have been better off asking the pilot if he was aware his gear was up, and let him decide further actions. IMHO.

avionimc 21st Apr 2013 18:15

If warranted, pilots should never forget to use a simple one word reply to ATC, in a clear and unambiguous voice:
UNABLE

His dudeness 21st Apr 2013 19:14


Fully aware of the emergency, instead of ordering a go around - with a clear voice of authority - the controller would have been better off asking the pilot if he was aware his gear was up, and let him decide further actions. IMHO.
Do we know if the pilots even heard the transmission ?
FWIW, if an ATCO would order me to G/A with no power left, he`d have to explain me how in the first place.

alas8 22nd Apr 2013 20:31

Guys,
Just some technical details about the airplane, may be it will help you to better understand the situation.
- This is small airplane, mechanical flight control system, no hydraulics, pretty much like C172
- Once engines are started, fuel system is independent of electrical power - fuel is supplied by jet pumps which are powered by return fuel flow from the engines, which in turn is created by mechanical engine pumps
- Hydraulic power is used for spoilers, landing gear and brakes; yes, total hydraulic failure is unpleasant situation but not due to control problems, but due to terribly increased landing distance (flaps up - cannot use, no spoilers, no anti-skid, emergency braking only)
- In normally functioning airplane total electrical failure should not happen, but in reality standby battery sometimes completely dies in 1-2 flights or people just fly with dead battery longer time waiting a scheduled maintanance visit; due to blown current limiter failure of one generator can lead to loss of great part of aircraft functionality and this fact is not properly addressed in aircraft manuals or standard training
- Alternate gear extension is provided, system is b... simple - steel cables going to all three locks, just procedure shall be followed (like disabling normal LG control) and the red handle shall be pulled firmly all the way out
- There are no LEDs, just electrically operated flaps

talkpedlar 24th Apr 2013 17:55

Maybe......
 
..with all electrics failed, all his engine Ts, Ps and speeds were indicating zero... leading him to believe he had double engine failure? He sure had plenty of power to fly a missed approach and rejoin the pattern... IMHO

With respect, and I have no specific information on this, I reckon this entire incident was handled by a pilot with low time/experience.

TP


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