Ryanair buys new private jet to shuttle staff
 

Somewhat old news but seems the Irish Independent have just caught up/on;

Ryanair buys new private jet to shuttle staff - National News - Independent.ie

Hmmmmmm,

This machine kept on the IOM registry which I understood was for private ops only. How can the transport of execs and crew positioning be private????
Are they on board for leisure or business purposes on behalf of Ryanair???

As usual the rules are bent to suit the situation....................

SF, that is still private transport. No AOC required.

there has been a mention of this before, AOG spares, crew sickness.
Mr OL knows the press will be snapping him if he's seen on it i suspect....
That said why not he's a businessman

Cldvr,

Sorry but its transport at the behest of the company so a public transport operator is needed......

Otherwise why not have it on the Liberian register and have a PPL pilot?

As with most things to do with RYR its a cost cutting disgrace, why don't they do it properly and put it on the company AOC?

IOM is for private ops only, moving crews around is part of their business so its NOT private...........its part of their business.

SF,

I fear you are wrong. FR use the exec jet to move employees and spares around. It us an internal company operation. Seats / trips from A to B are not sold outside the company. So an AOC is not required.

BD

SF you are so wrong, any business that uses an aircraft as a tool for business purposes, them being an airline, an engineering company or a financial institution that only carries its employees does NOT need an AOC, never have and never will.

You may want to familiarise yourself with the requirements a bit before you post such nonsense here.

The CAA and JAA are very clear in this matter, not sure what makes you so confused.

Cldvr,

Nonsense????? Confused?????

:mad:

Glad I don't work in your outfit.............

Stress Free - you are talking out of your (profile location).

I work for a big international company, flying solely company employees and execs. We are all employees of said company, and no AOC is required. There is no public transport....

Well folks, I'm flying for a FTSE company and when its got other execs on board we're bound by our AOC, when it's just the owner it can be private........

Maybe some of us have higher standards than others.................:rolleyes:

Higher standards? Is that why you AOC boys are statistically more likely to kill yourself????

No matter what you say SF, you are not going to make up for your ignorance.

Stressfree wrote
Absolutely loath Ryanair, all it stands for and don`t have too much respect for its employees or passengers, but what on earth are you talking about? You don`t need an AOC for that operation- period, end of story, not under any CAA, under any circumstances. :{

Cldvr,

Many thanks for your usual charming response.........

CRM refresher for you I feel, thats if you've ever done the initial.......:E

Goodnight gentlemen, whatever our views we're all in the same game so keep safe, regards to all.

Seats / trips from A to B are not sold outside the company.

Ah, but how much are those inside the company charged for the privilege? :)

Jack

SF, there is only one view, that is the legal one. So why don't you just own up to your mistakes instead of hiding behind excuses and garbage.

ah hang on - who owns your airplane then? The FTSE company or a private individual (say the CEO of the FTSE) who tries to make charter revenue back by chartering it back to the FTSE company through a management co and AOC when on company business?

That would not be as straight forward as a company owned jet, carrying company employees, on company business..... which does not need an AOC......

StressFree, you do seem awfully stressed...

The fact is that if the people or parts being transported are not paying (whether directly or indirectly) for the transportation then it is not a public transport operation and if it is not a public transport operation no AOC is required.

Relax!

MT

Surprised
 

What surprises me, considering MOL is involved, is that the aircraft isnt a single pilot approved aircraft. Money to be saved here....MOL starting to slip? ;)

Ryanair buys new private jet to shuttle staff
 

Do the staff have to pay to use the toilet???

Do they have to pay for sandwiches?

Ok, stress free, to make it simple, is the jet used to transport an outside party or will the company be paid for those flights?
No, for internal use, there is no charge to a second or third party, there is only a direct operating cost.

So clearly no AOC required.

If a large manufactur has a breakdown of a plant (read airplane) he can use the corporate jet to ferry engineers (read aircraft mechanics or pilots) to his plant in order to continue his business.
This is not a commercial operation, period.

CK

Well, if anyone sees a hilton black pen down the side its mine I flew this one interesting they bought a very low houred one delivered 2009 ish .it was going for 9.75m I wonder what they paid for it....anyway...:zzz:

stressed might have a valid point
 

Can an air transport undertaking, especially one that has an AOC, operate (within EU land) occasional flights as PRIVATE. ????

Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.

If contractors, ie pilots are carried on this aircraft, then they might be considered not to be employees of the owning company. After all thats why Ryanair are using contractors, to avoid any Taxable or Social costs.
Perhaps they need a POC not an AOC, after all I operate according to Mr Caymans rules.

If the aircraft is operated on a Manx registration, then it must be ONLY private operations, and according to the Manx requirements.

I am not certain if Mr Manx requires an Operations Manual, certainly Mr Caymen and Mr Bermuda do. They can get very upset if operations are conducted outside thier rules of engagement.

To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved. But would suggest that real deep professional advice be taken, (which I am sure it has.)



Glf

Yes. It is even possible for an individual aircraft, registered on an AOC, to switch to making private flights, then switch back to PT flights on the next flight. Not easy to get authority, but it is possible.

Ironically, as others have hinted, it is probably more "illegal" to (potentially) charge for sandwiches on the flights...

All you need then is a lease agreement to keep it Private. Different scenarios for when the A/C owner is offshore and the end user is onshore, you can even nominate a UK co as agent for the offshore entity to claim back VAT on purchase and fuel etc.

There is no legal reason to have a private A/C on an AOC and those that do are just misinformed or misguided. The only advantage is fuel tax, but there are ways around that too for private aircraft.

All you need is a statement to that effect in your Ops manuals and get it approved.

Yep, that's patently clear from your post. And so too is your knowledge of the Manx register - so why post?

Everything you need to know regarding the IOM register, what their aircraft may do, when, how, and for whom, and the regulatory structure they work to, is available on their web site.

In the regs you will find precisely how such an operation could be worked as private.

IOM reg may not be for you, but have you ever stopped to wonder just why it is so popular?

Obviously tax reasons, but its not particularly well regulated for commercial ops.....they don't "allow" it therefore have no provision to control it...legal or illegal.

I'm pretty sure the FR operation on the LJ is fine, but there are plenty of M reg aeroplanes doing dodgy charters. I hear Special Branch are now being drafted in by the CAA as the problem is so overwhelming. The UK CAA are now having to get involved as the manx auth don't have the infrastructure or resources to deal with it.

....
A pretty bold statement. If you actually KNOW that to be a fact, then why do you not tip off the authorities? If I was a legitimate charter operator, I certainly would.

I would suspect that it is actually less likely that IOM aircraft are used for dodgy charters due to the fact that everyone knows that the IOM register does not cater for CAT. I don't doubt it happens though, but I'm sure it's not as prevalent as you suggest, and I'm certain that the problem is not of an "overwhelming" nature.

And another thing; Why special branch - what do they have to do with it?

Just a thought
 

When MOL or his Governmental Affairs people go to Brussels, does the Learjet take them to Charleroi to save on fees?

That is interesting. How?

No, to Brussels (Charleroi).... :p

Which is pain when its RYR rushhour...

They certainly save money on the crew, first officers have to be rated and are only employed during the busy period then dumped at the end of the season, but they dangle the carrot stating you may get an opportunity to move sideways on to the airline fleet :yuk:

the nice man at ryanair has created a major business that employes crew for 300 aircraft, why would he want to use his aircraft to fly crew around, what am I missing, do you deserve the honour of working for such a worthy boss, your comments are just joke right !

It is used as a work horse and allegedly a bit tatty on the inside. Operated to maintain the network schedule by moving parts, engineers and crew as required.

Sooty take a chill pill
 

I operate a M reg aircraft, thus might be considered to have a working knowledge of the M system, combined with a Cayman and Bermudan validation, also understand their systems too.

My reference to the corporate structure is related to the distance between corporate entities as well as the relationship between the contract staff, (and who employes them), and the oners of the aircraft.

Glf

FNPL...

Why would an anti terrorist organisation get involved in investigating aircraft operators you plonker!

If you're going to make stuff up at least make it believable.

It's really simple.

If Ryans aircraft and more specifically the sale of seats on it are NOT available to the public generally it is a private operation and does not require an AOC.

You may operate a B747 in private on a PPL if you wish. The moment you charge a "public" even unto a token dollar the regulatory for hire or reward the roof falls in. Company staff, parts and equipment on company business or jollies yet do not fall into the net. The Tax man might have something to say about the jollies but the regulator is not interested.

Standards are an entirely separate issue. However in most countries the 'standards' for Part 25 type aircraft maintenance are similar whether private or "airline" crew training and SMS is another story.

I have operated (now retired) four Part 25 AOC's the most recent with Challenger and Gulfstream. So I know of what I speak.

And yes the "private" jets illegally operated in charter are a danger to everyone, dumb owners and complicit and even dumber pilots don't seem to understand the seriously negative financial consequences if it goes pear shaped.

Edit: for dumb pilot, add idiot.

that even some posters thought that the legal department of ryanair had not considered the question of legality is ludicrous.

too many people here with too much time to spare, too little knowledge of the subject matter, and a liking for too much tittle tattle.

edited to add that I paid too little attention to avoid the inclusion of too many too's

tittle tattle? too much Downton Abbey..

Quite impressed that Ryanair has a contingency plan for shifting crew around when there's a cock up. That job would be like being Maverick in the alert5 aircraft. Jonny's pulled a sickie in Genoa cos he's pissed - launch Maverick in the alert5 with Shattered and Newbie to go rescue the jet!

"launch maverick with shattered and newbie":D

Wheres the like button!

ps you owe me a new keyboard, this ones covered in coffee!