Citation 750 down in Egelsbach.
 

Around 1900 LT, crashed on final, no final word yet on fate of occupants but looks bleak. Registration confirmed N288CX, out of Linz.

No IFR-approach available, crew cancelled IFR, continued in marginal VMC conditions and it was already dark. A KingAir crashed at virtually the same place about two years ago in similar conditions.

Sad!

(German only) report from a local newspaper here including two photos of the crash site.

Business-Jet zerschellt: Mehrere Tote bei Flugzeug-Absturz | Nachrichten | Hessischer Rundfunk | hr-online.de

288CX was literally touring the world, doing multiple RTW flights a year.

A German newspaper website reports "up to six" people on board, no survivors.Süddeutsche Zeitung

It really is this repetitive pattern of accidents, same conditions, same story, which make me sad and mad alike.

http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...ield-edfe.html

A terrible shame, if what seems to be true turns out to be so.

Forgive me eagle flyer, but what exactly do you mean by "marginal" VMC? The flight conditions were either VMC or they were not, so what precisely is the point you are trying to convey?

Show a bit of respect, don't talk nonsense, and leave the fact finding to people who know aviation terminology - and the correct definitions.

Cessna Citation X crashed at EDFE
 

Near Egelsbach / Frankfurt again a business jet crashed on thursday evening during night time VFR approach in foggy weather.

Business-Jet zerschellt: Mehrere Tote bei Flugzeug-Absturz | Nachrichten | Hessischer Rundfunk | hr-online.de

marˈginal ~ adjective

1 Relating to a margin
2 In or on the margin
3 Minor, subordinate or insignificant, not central, principal or mainstream
4 Barely sufficient
5 Not very relevant

The second definition above seems perfectly relevant and is in common use amongst aviation professionals. I have a feeling eagle flyer knows what he is talking about...

His post was crystal clear to me.

marginal VMC is even used in wx products such as GAFOR. So wtf is wrong with that? It's perfectly clear what he was saying, yes still VMC but barely so. Marginal VMC.

Cessna Citation X crashed at EDFE
 

coming from LOWL. German TV reports 6 deaths.

Business-Jet zerschellt: Mehrere Tote bei Flugzeug-Absturz | Nachrichten | Hessischer Rundfunk | hr-online.de

Number of NOTAMs: 2

EDFE FRANKFURT EGELSBACH

E3383/11 - MEASURED VALUES FOR WIND-DIRECTION/SPEED ARE NOT RELIABLE FOR THR 09. 27 DEC 10:53 2011 UNTIL 25 MAR 23:59 2012 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 27 DEC 10:53 2011


E3326/11 - APPROACHING VFR AIRCRAFT INTENDING TO USE HPA ROUTING YANKEE 1 - YANKEE 2 MAY HAVE TO EXPECT ISOLATED DELAYS DUE TO OTHER HPA AIRCRAFT APPROACHING EGELSBACH AIRFIELD ON SAME ROUTING FROM WITHIN AIRSPACE CHARLIE FRANKFURT. THESE AIRCRAFT ARE PERFORMING A FLIGHT RULE CHANGE FROM IFR TO VFR AND ARE NORMALLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF LANGEN RADAR UNTIL REACHING YANKEE 2. CONTACT EGELSBACH INFO EARLY FOR INFORMATION. 19 DEC 08:03 2011 UNTIL 26 MAR 23:59 2012. CREATED: 19 DEC 08:03 2011

chubby - don't get a chubby over this. International website with terminology from different countries.

Definition for marginal vfr:

Web definitions:Weather of less than 3,000-foot ceiling and five miles visibility but above the required "1,000 and three.". phlairline.com/aviationglossary.html

Anyone got registration or operator?

Three die in German air crash

N2SA

G IV registered N2SA was involved in an accident last month in the Republic of Congo, according to the NTSB.

Link here: DCA12WA037

I doubt it would be the same aircraft. The article mentioned would have put a file photo from any accident to illustrate... another fine reporter!

AIRCID N288CX
 

more details here:
ASN Aircraft accident Cessna 750 Citation X N288CX Egelsbach Airport

Metar for EDFE/EDDF, 01MAR, 18:00 UTC? Anyone?
 

Cheers
Cecco

For Metars Look here: ASN Aircraft accident Cessna 750 Citation X N288CX Egelsbach Airport

I can't imagine this accident is weather related as the weather wasn't too bad. And other than the King Air two years ago this aircraft has a ground proximity warning system to prevent the kind of accident that happened to the KA.

EDFE 011650Z 01005KT 8000 FEW008 09/08 Q1025=
EDFE 011720Z 03003KT 4000 BR FEW008 09/08 Q1025=
EDFE 011750Z AUTO 03003KT //// // /// 08/07 Q1025=
EDFE 011820Z AUTO 06002KT //// R27/P2000N // /// 08/08 Q1025=

EDFE ist UTC +1.

EDDF is really close by, 15 minutes drive. Not worth it, and VFR/night &foggy WX in a X onto a 1166mtr LDA runway or circling a very tight pattern to get the 1400mtr?
I have never flown it but it simply doesnt look like the ideal airplane for that.

It was N288CX. The aircraft was flying from Salzburg to Linz to pick up passengers and then planned to go into Egelsbach. Unfortunately it was not the first crash in Egelsbach under a VFR Night Approach and as far as I know the weather was not really good. And if you fly the first time to Egelsbach under VFR Night conditions this can be very tricky

We were going into frankfurt last night and low vis procedures were in force. Wonder how one can fly VFR in those conditions.

Yes. But have you tried to get an airport slot there recently? On short notice maybe? At seven in the evening on a weekday? In a private aircraft?

Why on earth would anyone fly to EDFE with a C750? :ugh:

Sad but true, unfortunately. And the bad news is: it ain't going to improve in either EDDM or the new Berlin airport when they close down EDDT.

But should that motivate one to seriously consider EDFE in a C750? Definitely not the right airplane for that airfield. :ugh:

crew?
 

Anyone got any info re the crew? I have a very unpleasant nagging feeling....

:(

EDDF is too crowded and EDFE is only 10 km away from EDDF.

To install ILS the runway has to be extended by 270 meters (currently 1,400-by-25-metre)

An ILS can't even then be installed as EDDF is too close and there is no space to legally design IFR procedures to EDFE until a few rules are changed.

Anyway, with the weather during the time of accident (EDFE 011750Z AUTO 03003KT //// // /// 08/07 Q1025) it wasn't even good enough for a CAT I ILS, nevermind RNAV or other IFR procedures. And to fly VFR in that kind of weather, well....

First hull loss of a 750, let's hope they didn't die for a stupid reason like some in this thread suggest (IFR -> VFR transition in insufficient conditions).

What are the minima for a non precision approach?

Depends on a lot of factors. In Egelsbach they probably would be very close to the german VFR minima in class G airspace under which they very operating anyway: 1500m visibility, clear of clouds and not below 500ft GND unless taking off or landing.

The slashes in the Metar replacing the values for visibility and clouds stand for "cannot be determined" which can mean anything. We will have to wait for reports from other pilots and witnesses on the ground what the met conditions were like at the time of the accident.

captjns:
What are the minima for a non precision approach?

There is no instrument approach in Egelsbach, therefore VFR apply here (NVFR, that is)

Well, EDDF right next to EDFE had at least for some time low vis procedures in progress yesterday evening. The weather in quite a few areas in western germany was pretty unpleasant, very low ceiling if any, heavy mist or fog and so on.

Will this turn out to be yet another pressonilitis in marginal weather (due to commercial pressures) accident?

Things have changed. There is plenty of landing runway capacity in EDDF these days.

The airfield is owned by Netjets and is promoted for exactly this purpose.

Commercial with N registration ? or Private without AOC it wa limit with C525 , it 's a litle bit crazy no??:sad:

Gettheritis?
 

Going around @ Egelsbach is no fun at all, especially not in a Citation. Remember: you had cancelled IFR prior to landing, and Langen Radar has long forgotten about you. Now you find yourself caught in a small cage of airspace, max altitude 1.500ft. (3.500ft, respectively) with only Egelsbach Info, and the big jets lingering only 2000ft. above you.

What do you do?

-Circle and wait for the wx to approve?

-Divert, including a huge workload with Langen Radar, and all the :mad: trouble after landing, because your company/boss/passengers won´t be amused?

-Close you eyes, pray, and try to make it anyway?

not pretty....

Edit: photos removed...too many peeps reading too much into them, besides the press offers more