Low Hour FO positions...
 

Any people in the Biz jet world know of any previous recruiters of low hour FO's into the biz jet world?

I've written, emailed and pleaded for a break with all the uk operators I can think of/ find but the general response in 1000 hrs plus.

I'm an FI (350TT)and safety pilot on Kingair's and really want to get into the biz jet world rather than FR etc etc

PM's welcomed!!!

In my little experience in bizjet world what really matters, at least for FOs, is not the experience, but the contacts you have.
You might also have 5000 hours on the space shuttle, but be sure that the 200 hrs guy will take the job if with the right contacts with the owner, management or captains in the company.

Different story if we are talking of operators like Netjets or similar.

Sad but true.

Networking, networking and networking, that's the way if you want to make it in this world.

Good luck!

We only recently closed for applicants and we were looking for a FO and Captains. Previous FO's started with 250 hours so the jobs do exist.

I doubt the boss would appreciate me giving our name out and him receiving a flood of late cv's. I know some who applied had been "networking", seems to be the way Corporate works.

How do you biz jet folk suggest networking?

I don't know any biz jet pilots which is a non starter from the word go!
I've considered visiting some companies to hand my CV in by hand but knowing how busy these ops departments get figured it would be more of a nuisance that anything......

Do any of you want to be my friend? (Lol) I'll buy you a beer:ok:

Our requirements for F/O were 2500 hours total 1000 turbine, 50 in type and PIC type rating. Captain (I think) was 4000 hours total, 1000 jet, 500 in type. We don't expect to hire again for a very, very long time.

That's typical requirements from what I've seen.

Experienced pilots have to start running thin on the ground one day don't they? If no companies give low hour FO's a shot then surely there will be a shortage of experience out there....

It's the same in the airline world. Things must change soon! After all, someone gave these experienced guys a start when they started out.

I'll get there in the end:)

I'm currently reading a book on Human Factors in the flight deck and surprisingly it appears that quite often the best performing team is not the one with two very experienced pilots up front, having someone in the right hand seat with what we consider "low hours" can have surprising benefits.

Now I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure there are many many factors to consider and you could probably make statistics fit the other way around but it did make for an interesting read.

@Marcus550
 

Your requirements for FOs are harsh...what aircraft are you operating???

Cecco

How much experience do you think someone should have to get into the right seat of a Gulfstream 550 operated by a corporation?

Mutt

To attract a type rated Global or G550 pilot, the terms would have to be absolutely exceptional - they simply arent on the market. Probably cheaper to offer the rating.

Hours aren't important to me for an F/O, although some air-taxi time is great. Background and attitude is the number one for me. And some demonstrable stick skills (eg an airsport, or even a motorsport). I didn't used to take a whole lot of notice of personal recommendations/networking - instead, some CVs are so interesting, I just want to meet them (and find out if they are bull****ting)

If you are safety pilot on King Airs, it sounds to me as though you already have your 'in', no?

Contrary to how it might feel, 350 hours in the whole scheme of things is really NOT that many and unless you are exceptionally gifted, if you go on a type rating course for most biz jets - you'll probably struggle.

In your position I would sweat your nuts off to get some more hours somehow (para dropping, glider towing, take your friends on some adventures and cost share) meanwhile cultivating your King Air connection.

Impress the King Air guys with your attitude, reliability and enthusiasm and see where that goes? Could you afford to get a King Air type rating? Would the King Air guys let you fly as PIC on empty legs if you got rated?

@mutt
 

1500 TT and 500 turbine hours are sufficient for a FO on a G550! Anybody disagrees?

I'm with JS - somebody with only 350 hours is not really that useful in RHS, sometimes the lack of experience just causes more work for the Captain. Best stay on the KA until you have about 1000 hours. Even if you are not TRd on the KA, keep a separate log of the hours you have flown on it - they do count to employers (in GA, at least).

@Vone Rotate
 

Your networking question...you don´t have to be necessarily good friends
with the owner/flight ops manager etc. BUT if they see something in your CV what they like, they might also invite you for an interview e.g for corporate aviation, if you are/were in the same field like your prospective employer or any other common ground "creating" familiarity. As some posters have pointed out, in smaller companies, the recruitment criteria can be highly subjective whereas bigger companies like Netjets have their established standard recruitment procedure.

Cecco

I'm with you Cecco - Ample. I had a command on a jet heavier than a G550 with little more hours than that.

Of course you have to watch them like a hawk when they start with 200h in their book, but by 500h, they are well up to speed. Much better than hiring some oik who makes the bosses eyes roll, or some guy with loads of low quality hours, who reckons he's ace of the base.

Just browsed 6 months of climbto350.com, not many Gulfstream F/O jobs advertised, these are the requirements....

[1] Typed on 450/550, 2000 total hours, 500 on type.

[2] GIV type rating with 1000 hrs on type.

[3] GIV SIC, 3000 hrs, 1500 jet, 300 on type.

[4] 3500 hrs, GIV type preferred.

[5] G450, type rated.

[6] GII/III, 1500 TT, 500 ME, 250 JET, Typed.

Your suggested requirements appear lower than what the market is expecting. It also happens to be an extremely expensive type rating to get without a guaranteed job to fly the aircraft.

Mutt

Hi Joe
 

It’s refreshing to hear that someone in recruitment will look beyond total hours, which FTO a candidate studied at or who the candidate/ their family are friendly with. Excuse my naivety but it would almost sound like an outbreak of common sense, it’s a shame that it is not more widespread.

Looking in from the outside it appears that there are people involved in pilot recruitment who have never flown and slavishly obey stated minimums for all applicants with no application of common sense or judgement or senior pilots involved have forgotten that they were once low hours, inexperienced pilots looking for a break.

I came into the piloting world as a ‘career changer’ after having served as an Avionics Engineer in the military and saving sufficient funds to finance my own training without the scary loans that the younger candidates are forced to endure. As a consequence I don’t have ‘experience commensurate with age’ as I see mentioned a lot in recruitment ads and I am not on friendly terms with senior pilots.

So it does my morale good to note that recruitment is not a totally closed shop to older modular students who are not well connected.

You mention having called applicants who had CVs which interested you, as an insight what sort of content constitutes ‘interesting’ and sets one CV apart from a bunch of others?

@Cecco
 

We operate a G550, the experience requirements we used in seeking candidates were recommended by a consulting firm, and in fact both of our initial hires, captain and f/o exceeded those numbers substantially.

@marcus550 @mutt
 

Ok, fair enough, you are right, I was wrong!

Cecco

@Cecco - usually US based operators look for more hours than us. Sometimes insurances play a vital role in the scenario as well.

I had sort of to little hours no matter how much I had until I had too much !

I started on a little Turboprop, tried to get to a bigger one: no, not enough TP hours. When I had the hours, there was too little EFIS time. Got eventually there, then I had to little Jet experience. Made some Jet time - then I all of a sudden was having too much command time, to get into an airline...

In fact a friend of mine just 'adjusted' his hours down close to the maximum allowable and joined said airline with roughly 3000hrs more than they knew.

If the market ever (I doubt it) turns back, then all the barriers now in force will be gone. That has been the game in Aviation for a long, long time.

@Cerro
 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you are wrong, we simply differ in this one area. My perspective as an aircraft owner may well be quite different than yours, as a pilot.

We wanted the best that was available at the time we hired, and we wanted a flight deck crew of near equal skills who could interact well together. We were lucky to get the guys we have. I would never disparage a pilot's choice of copilot.

Thank for the input.

I do have connections with the company I fly 'safety pilot' on the kingair with but as it's a single pilot operation a min of 1500 hrs is required. I love the flying, really love it, however none of the hours can be logged so it won't really help me become eligible for employment hours wise.

I instruct which I also enjoy but as we all know it's not enough to pay the mortgage. I do it part time so I can afford to live.

I see the point of experience and don't take that for granted but I do think a type rating would be a big leap either now or after another 1000hrs of teaching straight and level.....

I will persevere in my mission to secure a job on a corporate a/c....One day it will come good!!

Well the horrible market combined with industry hiring practices of hiring buddies over qualified folk makes it tough on the legitimate pilots trying to get work.

That is not correct. Keep a log of your "unloggable" hours in a separate logbook. I would much prefer to employ an FO who had 1000 "unloggable" hours on a King Air, than some rich kid who had a daddy-paid type rating and the regulatory minimum "loggable" sim-hours on type.

And I agree with totally too. Nothing more boring than having to spend every stopover with some sprog who has never done anything interesting in their life, has had their training paid for by family, and whose main interest is to get onto facebook or their iPhone.

I agree. Real world operational experience is gold. The 250 hr wannabe's straight out of the colleges don't have a clue how aircraft are operated in the real world and they have to be carried by their Captains until they do.

I am on my 5th flying job. My career was instructing, airtaxi, commuter airline, corporate, and now specialty ops (fire bombing). Every job I got was through word of mouth contacts and the last three were out of the blue calls from persons I knew who gave me an inside steer to an unadvertised job opening.

I predict your first corporate job will have its origin in a casual un-planned conversation that at the time did not seem that important. Work hard, don't complain and keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. When an outfit is looking for a "good guy" you want to be the one they think about.

Good thread
 

This has to be one of the best threads I have read in a long time! A lot of true words said from a lot of wise people! I personally worked my butt off to get that first job 24/7 ops and sales for 2 years to eventually get that first type rating!! It takes hard work and persistence!!!!

Only problem for me was my company went bust!! I now sit with two type ratings and just not enough hours (too much time spent in the office trying to get there)! Its not a good place to be! 50 resumes and about 100 phone calls later I can't even get a job sweeping the hanger floor :-( that won't stop me though!! You just have to keep plugging on, making connections, speaking to as many people as possible and something is bound to come round..

I can only stress to get a job in OPS, such as being a dispatcher or working in crew control. If you have business background, try getting into sales.

I am now 1 year in dispatch, and if you do everyday work and make the crew's and operator's life easier, you'll be right there ready to jump when a man is needed. I have a final airline intervirw soon, which I hope to pass, otherwise I am sure there will be a non-airline job waiting eventually. (That's not to say I'd Not appreciate corporate, but if the airline wants me, it's obviously bye bye bizjets).

While you may not get to fly, the planning and OPS experience is worth a lot aswell if you set foot into your first jet - at least you've already seen a flight log and briefing package before.

Plus, you'll know all the ICAO airport codes of the world by hard (sad really), know which are good handling agents and have a lot of airport / FBO opening hrs memorized - that's good info to have downroute.

Hang in there!

The captain drops over in the middle of the night, IFR, needing an approach to minimums.

The gall of considering transporting of millionaire around with 350 hrs of flight time as being anything close to enough is incredible.

You are have obviously never experienced the reality of airline ops today. No modern airline gig will ever be able to beat a really good corporate job, and I will admit they are the minority, but the with right boss, flying corporate big iron will be as close as you can get to aviation Nirvana.

Thanks for the input guys....

I agree with all the points raised and will get involved with a separate logbook for my 'unloggable' kingair time.

I see the point about the type rating being a big jump but I do feel when operating the nav kit, talking to atc, setting up approach instruments etc I could be doing it all in something a bit quicker and getting paid for the privlage too!

Completely agree on the ops job, my issue is that I'm in a emergency service that I've been in for 12 years so I would be reluctant to leave my career for anything less than a full time flying job. Might sound short sighted but I love my job, just love flying that bit more. I couldn't do an office job...

My life experience has been at a good level after seeing/ dealing with hundreds of stressful situations. I can also talk *********** for hours so stop overs are never a problem!!

I totally get what you mean and agree with what you say, but as a (relatively) young and low-hour pilot I just think that the airline job would get me off to a better start. I'd rather fly 900hrs a year for a while with a flag carrier and stay (again relatively) worry free about the job and whether it'll still be around tomorrow than do 250 a year and feel like everyone else is just passing you by.

Again that's not to say I wouldn't appreciate a corporate job. I love business aviation and it's up- and downsides and run a small business myself working with people inthe bizav world.

It's simply a choice (and again that's only really an issue if I pass that final interview) based on my current life situation and where I hope to go within the next few years.

900 hours is a LOT of flying. I know 2 pilots who do those sorts of hours and neither of them are particularly happy. It's the little things they miss, friends weddings, family birthdays, too tired to upgrade the house etc. I often wonder if it's these unfortunate souls who benefit the most from Facebook, they get to experience a sort of wierd "social life" at a time convenient to them.

Be careful what you wish for.

I really dislike the narrowvision of most companies. Nowadays it is all about typerating typerating typerating and typerating. If you apply and you say i have this and this experience, the company replies 'wow, very interesting and do you have this typerating??" "euh no". "sorry we dont need you then, bye".:ugh:
Sometime i read job adverts with the most stupid requirements: typerated and 50h on type!! 50h ontype!!!! Come on, just say we offer you a job and you pay the typerating.
Makes me all really sick.

Loads of airline hours don't necessarily mean much on bizjets. We recently had two FOs join about the same time - one had 4500 hours on regional airlines, the other had about 1000, mostly on MEPs single-pilot, and on gliders before that.

The ex-airline guy was hired because he had enough hours to satisfy the insurance requirements for captain, and was expected to make LHS in six months. However, it quickly became apparent that he had no operational savvy, having done all his hours P2 without taking any responsibility, and with an ops department doing all the backup, flying a few fixed routes. He was a flying robot, good at rigid adherence to checklists and SOPs, but unable to think on his feet when faced with the unexpected. In the end, the company didn't renew his contract.

On the other hand, the MEP guy was used to running ops himself, knew how to flight plan himself, how to deal with CFMU, how to save fuel, how to fly visual approaches, when to go VFR if necessary, wasn't the slightest fazed by going into an unfamiliar airport, and was happy to do the menial jobs like cleaning the aircraft and updating the jepps. He's ready to go LHS already, and just waiting for enough hours to satisfy the insurance. His fewer P1 hours on a MEP were far more valuable than loads of P2 on an airline.

I wish you the best of luck for the interview!

Trim stab, I´d say that he was a product of his environment and probably his personality. I´ve seen airline dudes getting adjusted to our flying real quick. Its more the mindset IMHO, am I willing to relearn big parts of the business that I have been doing for so long already ? Or do I just try to find a mistake and blame somebody else than me instead of just making it work?

The visual appr. etc. are a different beast...you have got to learn these things by watching (IMO) no sim will get you there. Plenty of airliners do loads of visuals - e.g. the guys flying to greek islands etc.

Now, OTOH hand I had a colleague who was a captain for a long time in an executive charter operation that went into smaller/VFR airfields a lot and he was so uncertain of himself that he never gave such approaches to his F/O.

There was one airfield with a 1500m runway that we went practically 3 times a week and his 2 year long almost exclusive F/O was not allowed to land there a single time. I upgraded to the aircraft type and thaught: wow this F/O has like a 1000hrs, on this type, good thing he is here to hold my hand, he surely can show you how to fly this thingy etcetc. (I had enjoyed 'minimal' supervision...) How wrong I was.

He never learned the REAL important things. He was/is a better checklist handler/SOP knight than I ever will be...

My point is: we can´t generalize things like that...

Experience in ops does not necessarily count very much towards a job as a pilot, BUT, you meet the pilots who may one day be able to get you in. This will not happen if you are stacking shelves in Tesco's . The future aint for the faint hearted, stick with it, you will get there.

One of the pitfalls of corporate flying is a lack of flying, so a low time pilot remains a low time pilot for a long time, are you going to be happy in 5-10 years time to discover that you dont have the hours to move to the left seat or to different equipment?

I have colleagues who have flown less than 200 hrs in 3 years, are they any more employable then the day they joined? Apart from a steady salary, what exactly have they achieved?

Mutt

Joe - Thanks for being frank! I will now add to my 'hobbies, interests, clubs, associations' section of my resume...of course to make room I will have to cut back the section where I detail hours, ratings, work experience, flight schools attended etc.

I'm doing over 500 hours a year, get paid well, and am treated nicely.

I also know folks who do a lot less so Mutt isn't wrong, but there are corporate jobs where you do get to gain hours and experience at a rate usually associated with regional airline stuff.