Logging IFR hours - is my thinking correct?
 

Hi guys,

Wondering if I can throw a question out to you... looking for a second opinion really.

I'm currently para dropping and operate in the LTMA for most of the flight - Am I correct to assume that I can log the LTMA portion of the flight as P1 IFR?

My thinking is that whilst I am in VMC I am operating in Class A airspace which is IFR only and much of the time I fly mainly on instruments to set up the run in etc.

I'd say no, morally, if for no other reason.

Wodka,

Are you in reciept of an IFR clearence?

If so, I would say yes, you are flying IFR, IMC, VMC has nothing to do with it.

Agreed the 'instruments' time setting up for your run in is a bit much to log as IFR, I fly 'IFR' in that case many times at work, though I am still operating under VFR rules, with a few dispensations :E

You can cross class A airways VFR so perhaps the arguement for IFR only isnt as solid as it might be.

Its one of those things, what does your CP say?

Regards,

BRS

This crops up regularly.

Do not confuse flight under Instrument Flight Rules (sic. IFR) with flight under Instrument Met. Conditions (sic. IMC) If you look at the conditions for logging "instrument time" at the beginning of your CAA logbook it says this is time when you manipulate the controls solely without outside reference ie. when you are in cloud.

It doesn`t say much about your experience if you are to log visual time as instrument time whilst you flog about VMC in controlled airspace!!

It is only really relevant whilst under training to fly on instruments hence the IF hours requirements for licence upgrades.

Hello!

For what reason would you want to log these hours anyway? To impress employers? I used to be operations postholder for over ten years in the GA industry. This is how it goes: You look at the CV of a jobseeker. You look a the listing of his flying hours. You try to match the two. 500 hours total time. 300 hours aerial work (paradropping, sailplane towing, banner towing, whatever). 300 hours IFR. Dosen't fit together, the guy must be a cheater, the application goes straight into the dustbin. Name goes to the black list. No second chance.

Greetings, Max

Thanks for your replies thus far.

Re clearances. We receive a clearance at the start of the day under an agreement from Swanwick where we are given a squark & frequency. Don't know if this counts as a clearance per say.

On some flights I am flying in IMC for some portion of the flight so I guess I can log this, but it seems the feeling on logging say 40% of each flight is a bit rich!

I certainly don't want to claim for something incorrectly.

How did people who got into Air Taxi get the P1 IFR time that is often quoted as a minimum? :{

In the US it is when there is no reference to the horizon in IMC conditions is when you can log instrument time. If you log conservative you won't have any problems explaining in the interview.

If the Rules state: Time when you manipulate the controls solely without outside reference ie. when you are in cloud.

Do airline pilots and others log P1 time when the autopilot is engaged. I have always logged actual IFR only when I actually fly, not manage, the aircraft therefore I know that my IFR time logged is accurate.

Hello!

You won't get invited to the the interview in the first place, if there is anything to explain. And then, it is not the interview alone that gets you the job. You also need to show your flying skills. Either in an aeroplane or in a procedures trainer or simulator. And believe me, one can tell within five minutes if someone really has the instrument practice that he claims to have!

Mostly by cheating, but not in such an obvious may ;) But seriously: This "P1 IFR time" is really only required for single-pilot operations. Many/most commercial companies operate with two pilots (at least under JAR/EU-OPS because the conditions for single-pilot instrument flying are difficult to meet and duty and rest times are severly restricted in single pilot operation). So the usual way is to get the necessary experience in the right hand seat!

Greetings, Max

Hi!

Of course they do. If not, then some 20.000+ hours grey-haired airline veterans would have less than 100 hours in their logbooks (not even enough for their license renewal) ... especially those who fly long-haul.

Wow! And how do you do that? Start your stopwatch whenever you enter clouds and stop it, when you leave it? That's quite a job on a summer day with Cu clouds everywhere...

All pilots and instructors that I have ever encountered have logged as IFR time those flying hours that were flown with an IFR clearance. Because these are also recorded and documented with the relative ATC units in case of any doubt.

Greetings, Max

Log instrument time for that time when you operate the aircraft by reference to instruments. Don't log it any other time. Whether you're on an IFR clearance or not...who cares? Instrument time and experience is about proficiency. The amount of time you spend operating by reference to instruments speaks somewhat to your actual instrument experience...whereas the time you spent on a clearance does not.

If you flew by instruments, log it as such. If you didn't, don't.

We spoke to Swanwick this morning and they said as far as they are concerned we are in receipt of an IFR clearance when operating in the TMA. The only difference being we get one for the day instead of a per flight basis.

What a load of codswallop is being written here.

IFR has nothing to do with the reference, it is a set of flight rules. At the beginning of my log book it says nothing about what reference is being used. It says "...under instrument flight rules...".

If I am flying a visual approach I am still usually operating under instrument flight rules. In the UK, if I so choose and comply with the flight rules, I operate under instrument flight rules, regardless of conditions, service received or even qualifications. A holder of a PPL with no attached ratings is entitled to decide that while flying in VMC he is flying under IFR if he is in class F or G airspace. A commercial flight in VMC outside controlled airspace will be operated IFR by most companies for safety. At night in the UK outside controlled airspace IFR is the only option.

In fact not only is Wodka entitled, both legally and morally, to log flight in class A airspace as being under IFR, he is legally required to do so. It is very obvious when he is in class A that he is flying under IFR as he has not been given a special VFR clearance. Special VFR clearances must specifically state 'special VFR', and are not usually available for airways and TMA.

'what next' has admitted that while recruiting he has thrown away CVs of applicants due to his own misunderstanding of the rules, as it is entirely possible that the candidate he describes logged his hours correctly. OK, 'what next' might not be impressed by time logged IFR while flying VMC in class G and not wish to employ the person, but to blacklist a candidate and call him a cheat would be libellous if he identified an individual.

loftusb takes to the high moral ground, but tumbles down the slope when he actually gives a technically illegal answer.

SN3 Guppy mistakes reference for rules. Instrument Flight Rules, boys, not Instrument Flight Reference. As for increasing proficiency due to reference being flown when the autopilot is flying the aircraft, albeit with reference to the instruments, that is just plain daft. Yet a multicrew pilot might log time under IFR while asleep.

Please people, can we stick to informed answers, not personal opinion of what the rules should be? :ugh:

For clarity: you must log time IFR any time you are operating under IFR. If you have an IR you can operate under IFR in any airspace, under any conditions, receiving any level of service. In class A airspace you must do so, unless in receipt of a SVFR clearance (as far as I am aware only available in class A CTRs, e.g. Heathrow and Jersey). If you have no instrument qualification you can still log time IFR outside controlled airspace in VMC in UK airspace.

So yes, Wodka, you should log IFR.

P.S. The only case I know of where flight '...by sole reference to instruments...' is referred to in the rules is for experience needed to instruct instrument flight. In that case every hour by sole reference counts for four hours of IFR towards those requirements. This of course confirms that time can be logged IFR when not flying by sole reference to instruments.

Good post 12Watt Tim. I agree with just about all of that.

Ah, well, there you go.

In the real world we just log what we fly, instead of padding our logbooks to reflect what really isn't.

Your logbook serves as a legal document, ensuring that you've met minimum requirements for licensing and certification, ensuring that you've met recency of experience requirements, and providing a way to track a record of proficiency. Logging all of one's time spent operating under an IFR clearance is a wonderful way to rack up IFR hours, but IFR hours are meaningless, and don't at all speak to one's ability or even experience at flying instruments.

If one makes a 9 hour oceanic trip in daylight visual conditions, one makes that trip perhaps with a brief climb through clouds on departure, and a brief descent and approach through obscuring phenomena on arrival...thus gaining .3 or .4 of instrument time. I can see where you'd be logging 9 hours of instrument time because the flight is done on an IFR flight plan with an IFR clearance. Good for you.

Around here we just call that padding your logbook.

You'll find that typically about 10% of one's time is instrument time. Some a little higher, depending on their vocation...if you're seeing higher percentages because you're logging all your time spent on a clearance as instrument time...do what makes you feel best. Paint little airplanes on the side of your cockpit if it makes you feel like an ace, and wear a silk scarf. At the end of the day all that's significant is whether you can do the job, and logging every waking moment as instrument time won't make you one iota more proficient, nor prove you so. As you will.

Real World
 

SNS3Guppy:
Does that also mean that, in the real world, you only operate under IFR - Instrument Flight Rules - when you are in the clouds??

So in effect, RealWorld airliners crossing the atlantic fly VFR most of the time, as there are few clouds at cruising level.

Sounds convenient that your rules change according to operating conditions, does that happen outside aviation also?

The authorities I fly under now state that I must log flight time while operating under instrument flight rules as flight time under instrument flight rules. During this flight time under instrument flight rules, it is permitted to enter instrument flight CONDITIONS, which is a whole 'nother subject relating to meteorology.

There is a difference from the US and Europe, I have flown both places, the logging is different. There is no "padding" of anything when logging according to the regulations under which ones rating was issued.

The logging of instrument flight time refers to flight by the sole reference to intruments, ie no outside reference. Flight by IFR does not refer to the means by which the aircraft was safely navigated but to the rules under which it was governed at the time. Being as I am usualy way above 30,000 feet, I can usualy expect 10 or maybe 20 minutes at each end, of instrument flying, in a 7-8 hour IFR flight. If it was acceptable to log all IFR flight as instrument flight time I would have thousands. What would be the point of logging hours and hours of autopilot flight in the clear blue sky, drinking coffee and chatting with the hostess, other pilot and the boss, and proudly calling it FLIGHT BY THE USE OF INSTRUMENTS:rolleyes:

Good morning!

Since there is no class A airspace in 'my' part of the world and dropping parachutists is a strictly daylight VFR activity, dumping CVs of people who log instrument time for this activity does nobody any undue injustice, does it? There is some flying in class C and D airspace involved but neiter under instrument flying conditions nor instrument flying rules.
I can't remember ever having gotten an application from a British paradropper, so I have a clear conscience in this respect...

My sole intention was to warn 'Wodka' of logging anything that might cause the tiniest amount of suspiction with possible future employers. The company I fly for gets about 100 job applications per week (with maybe two or three positions per year to fill). There simply is no time or willingness to discuss unclear details with the candidates.

Greetings, Max

IFR hours
 

WODKA - When you are operating in the LTMA flying in Class A airspace - (For example from EGKH, where the base of the TMA is 3500ft and you operate up to FL120 remaining within 1.5 of the centre of the airfield) you are definitely operating under Instrument Flight Rules.

You may not be IMC at the time, but you are flying in the same (Class A) airspace as other IFR traffic (Airliners etc). All clearances you are given by London are IFR clearances.

You should know this! in your BPA ops manual it states in black and white, to operate in class A airspace - the PIC needs a valid IR/Rating or IMC/rating with an exemption from the relevant authority, if required.

A simple way of testing this (If you are brave enough) is to try flying VFR in the LTMA and see what the London controllers tell you to do!:}

If you don't use "Instrument Flying Rules" whilst flying in the LTMA you will come un-stuck very quickly.

Safe flying

Blue Skies :O

I said nothing of the kind. Put words in your own mouth. Not mine.

No, when crossing the atlantic, as I correctly stated previously, one operates under IFR. This is really quite irrelevant to the logging of instrument time, however.

You log IFR time, vs. instrument experience. Got it. Do you log time spent operating VFR as VFR time? Would anybody care?

The regulations require you to log time spent operating on an instrument flight plan as instrument time, or allow you to do so? There's a difference. You're not suggesting that you're under a penalty for failing to log IFR time, when operating IFR, are you?

So there are two issues here.

1) How to correctly log flight time.

2) Rules for transatlantic crossing.

Number two is fairly easy to deal with, as VFR flights are not allowed over FL65 or FL95 in the NAT system (here I assume that realworld aircrafts fly above these levels) so they must fly under IFR.

Which brings us to number one.
If your authority states, for example per 14CFR 61.51 (c) that you must log instrument time during the time you are operating solely by reference to instruments in actual or simulated instrument conditions, then do so. What you are efectively logging is IMC time. Those are the rules under FAA.
Under JAA you log IFR whenever you are flying under instrument flight RULES. Even if you are flying in VMC the JAA regards flight time on an IFR plan as instrument flight time. Whether you, me or anybody else on the operating end agree with this practice is irrelevant, those are the rules.
When I finished my business in the US, I had nearly 2000hrs TT and roughly 120 IMC - in the IFR column. I keep a separate logbook for my FAA flying, this basically means that I have in excess of 1200 hrs IFR but only around 150 hrs IMC. Arguing if this is correct/ padding/ unreal world conditions, though interesting and timeconsuming, is purely academic as I doubt none of us will see a change in the rules.

As long as everybody plays by the same rules... where they may play.

Personnally, I have 2 columns in my logbook
one is labelled "IFR FPL" and I log the time flown with an IFR Flight Plan
another is labelled Actual Instrument, and I log the fligt time "in the clouds"
This was done to stick with both FAA & JAA rules and practices.

Regarding the initial question, I am raising another point : is your paradropping A/C equipped and approved for instrument flying ? if placarded "VFR DAY OPS ONLY" I would tend to think it answers negatively your question

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the JAA rules lead me to think that you need the following to log IFR :

a valid IR
an IFR equipped and approved A/C
an IFR FPL

if this is the case, then you can log

Not at all. Under 14 CFR 61.51, a pilot is not required to log flight time except for the purposes of showing recency of experience, or to meet the requirements of a privilege, certificate, or rating. On is not required to log instrument time. One may log instrument time, but may only do so when flight is conducted by reference to instruments, either simulated, or actual instrument conditions. One need not be IMC; so long as one is required to operate the aircraft by reference to instruments, it's instrument time. The FAA has no prescribed category for logging time spent on an IFR flight plan, as it's meaningless.

May log, or must log? Again, there's a difference. Previous posters have stated that all time spent under IFR must be logged as IFR. You're suggesting that JAA requires that time to be logged as instrument time?

That basically means you have 150 hours of instrument time, and 1200 hours of nothing.

Ah, but you see, we don't. I the real world, we don't pad our logs, and we certainly don't log instrument time for periods of the flight in which a distant control center has issued a paper clearance...any more than we log flight time when we look up and see airplanes flying overhead.

A few years ago during an international weather modification project I met an incoming pilot from the EU who claimed to be qualified. When I glanced through his logbooks, it turned out that all the padding he'd done given the regulations under which he operated left him barely qualified to operate a motor scooter. He advertised himself as having ample flight experience, but his instrument experience was a fraction of what he logged, for the very purposes of this thread. His PIC time was likewise, and he had logged flight time for his simulation experience in a King Air, of all things. In the end, having reviewed his logs and inteviewed him, and former associates of his, I determined that the conclusion was correct and recommended his termination. While he met the JAA letter of the law, he was, in fact, unqualified to operate on our behalf, and did not have the experience to be doing what we were doing.

We're most certainly not all operating under the same rules.

You're asserting, then, that the JAA regulation requires you to log the time...or permits you to do so?

as everyone knows, it is common practice to fly in RVSM, MNPS airspace at FL390, with autopilot OFF at Mach .84.....
It is equally easy to fly the same airplane, without looking at the instruments to maintain the assigned level within 200ft, especially following a cold front.
And not to mention PRNAV ops, of course.

Be realistic, common sense...

Forgive me chief pilot, I have sinned.....
 

Oh my God, in light of all these comments about what you can log, and use of autopilot, I've come to the conclusion that having spent most of my career flying for airlines that discourage the use of anything other than the autopilot above 1000' after take off until disconnecting at decide, my total hours have reduced from 2300 to about 250. I'd better go and see the chief pilot and offer my resignation as I don't have enough hours for the job. In fact, will point out he should resign too, as he was the daft bugger that missed it when he checked my logbook when I joined.

As for all the time I've flown airways by sole visual reference to the next enroute VOR, well, I now realise I'm a total fraud. (I will even admit to not actually knowing exactly which cornfield some of the waypoints I've been sent to were over, and just pretended to).

Once again our regulatory bodies have conspired to write something which should be simple in a fashion that is wide open to interpretation. :ugh:

Thanks for all your further replies, some interesting points well made :)

PorcoRosso, just to answer some of your points...

I have a JAR CPL/IR
No placards re "VFR only" - The aircraft is IFR certified.
We are flying on an IFR clearance

I ceased logging instrument flying after earning the I/R years ago. As far as I am concerned it all is these days. I cannot see the relevance?

I do know it is an Ozzie & NZ thing though. Usually logging a percentage as "instrument." What the purpose of this is I am still scratching over.

Hello!

In my part of the world, instrument hours are relevant for two purposes:

1. Qualifying as an instrument instructor (JAR-FCL 1.395 requires 800 hours flown under instrument rules) and

2. Upgrade to captain (or gaining single pilot qualification) in the commercial environment (JAR-OPS / EU-OPS). The number of hours required depends on the type of operation and is stated in the operating manual of the company.

Once you have achieved your goal (either 1 or 2 or both) you can stop logging instrument hours, because nobody will ever ask you again about them.

Greetings, Max

Finally I understand it...
Unless you are in the clouds you navigate by visual landmarks. If it is possible to look outside, you do not fly by reference to instruments - makes sense.

I gather that you only log multiengine when on assymetric power, as otherwise, it flies like a single engine, and should be logged as such.

And for PIC, only as long as you are hand flying otherwise.....

Ok, I just compared my logbook with flightaware and in the past 6 months I've flown 523 actual hours (logged) 489 hrs show up on flightaware as being in the three aircraft which I alone would fly in the same period. These are all on IFR flightplans. My logbook, however, shows 61.5 hrs of actual instrument time. (I need to point out that on non-passenger legs, I am guilty of finding benign stratus clouds on occasion to do paperwork while the autopilot is on to "keep my skills current") So, claiming that the time spent on top or between layers as IFR is, in my book, and given my admitted padding by seeking out "wussy weather" completely disingenuous.

But hey, y'all can set whatever standards for yourselves that you want. I just know that my last 2200nm revenue trip where the autopilot folded up on our 340 right after takeoff in the LA basin and things were hardball IFR until eastern Kansas including an approach for fuel in the middle of the southern rocky mountains at night was tiring, but well within company expectations and my capabilities.

PicMas
I dont think you do understand it, logging instrument flight time, which is a testimony of ones ability to actualy control all aspects of a flight to include departure, cruise, transition and approach without visual references, i.e. in IMC conditions, is a very serious consideration when selecting flight crew. Those who log any time spent on a IFR flight plan regardless of the inflight conditions as instrument flight obviously wish to give an impression of experience that does not actualy exist, and, this being the case, it will become very apparent the first time the "experience" is called upon, usualy just before termination of employment or serious incident.:ugh:

I understand it just fine.

I think you gentlemen from FAA land have an impression that the logging is open to interpretation, and that in JAA land we should adopt your rules.

My first job with a JAA employer I was actually asked to "convert" my FAA instrument time, so that, every flight that had included an approach was logged as instrument time - otherwise they could not compare my time with the remaining applicants - I did and got the job. The review was done before getting hired and not before termination or serious accdent.

And really, how hard is it?? If you have done it umpteen hundred times, how difficult is a departure and an approach? I am of the opinion that VFR flying with reference to landmarks and no GPS is extremely difficult, you should therefore not by pad your logbook with VFR hours.

IFR time logged on an IFR plan shows time spent in the environment of IFR flying, who cares if there is cloud outside the windows, you must still fly gauges... and you will, in busy European high density airspace.

You are of course free to have your opinion on logging and any other aspect of aviation as you wish, I take offense to the claims that you should log less than allowed for the reasons given here.

PicMas
I have both CAA and FAA qualifications. I find it rather disturbing that a qualified pilot would compare flying VFR/VMC with reference to landmarks, to, IFR/IMC with reference to instruments, and state that VFR in comparison is "extremely difficult". The whole emphasis of instrument flying, and recency of such, is the ability to deal with spatial disorientation, situational awareness, and human shortcomings in this evioroment. Cruising at altitude, VMC, autopilot engaged, FMS working normaly does not create a demanding envioroment, if it does for you I have to suggest that maybe you have chosen the wrong vocation. If you are unable to understand the difference in skill levels required between VFR/VMC with a defined horizon, and, IFR/IMC with no visual horizon, possible turbulance, rain, sleet, snow, ice, high workload in high density area's then I rest my case. If you do understand the difference then you must also appreciate just why only flight in IMC conditions should be logged as instrument flight.

Just out of idle curiosity (and yes I'm bored while waiting for some updates to download).....
I notice that the FAA interpreters on this post only log "Instrument" time when flying by sole reference to instruments etc, and that the JAA holders are logging "Instrument Flight Rules" times as per their local authorities requirements.
My own understanding of it shows both camps as correct, since FAA wants to know how much time is spent IMC and JAA want to know how much time is spent IFR. I really don't see what the problem is?!
Out of interest though, do I assume (due to the arguement presented by the FAA advocates so far) that they only log Instrument time when they are hand flying, since if the autopilot is engaged a view out of the window or by reference to instruments appears somewhat irrelevant?
Anyway, back to FMS updates.
Chinchilla.

(PS, I log IFR for JAA and a seperate column of IMC for anyone who cares)
Edit: Having done some reading this afternoon, I now remember why I log the IF time as well as IFR time....see my next post.

SN3Guppy

In the UK, yes. Since the London TMA is entirely within UK airspace, I reckon that might have some relevance to the answer given. Yes FARs state you must log flight conditions, but that is not the case under JARs. Of course in any log book that has a space for IFR flight under IFR must be logged unless that column is clearly marked to be unused (e.g. crossed out entirely). It is a legal document, and the pilot signs each page to state that it is correct to the best of his knowledge. 'Padding' has nothing to do with it, unless you accuse the airline pilot who is required to use the autopilot (for example in RVSM airspace, or simply where company SOPs demand as in many cases) of padding every flight.

As for flying under IFR clearance being irrelevant I beg to differ, but then again I am still talking about UK and European airspace, so I know what I am talking about. The experience varies of course, but the discipline of flying correctly under IFR in any conditions and any class of airspace found in the busier areas of the UK and Europe, and most especially in controlled airspace, is very relevant. That is without considering the flights I have made hand-flying in the airways when the autopilot was tech. Good visibility did not make that less challenging. Yes it is possible to fly legally IFR without that discipline in UK class G airspace, but that is not the subject under discussion.

Any decent recruiter (and yes, I have also been deeply involved in recruitment and training of pilots for public-transport operations) knows what that experience means from the CV (resume); the "IFR" column simply details the quantity. Recruitment by numbers is a terrible habit indulged in by some flight operations.

Having said that personal recommendation is even more important. Two of the best pilots I ever worked with flew all their IFR previous to that job as Wodka does, paradropping in the London TMA. This seems far more relevant to the discussion at hand than FARs.

what next

Ah, so instead what you talked about was entirely irrelevant. Silly me, assuming that in answer to an honest question your rather disparaging answer actually had something to do with what Wodka wanted to know. In my experience potential recruits come from all over the JAA region, and have flown in various areas, so why assume they are cheating if they could be completely honest but flying in an environment different to Stuttgart's? I recruited a Danish pilot whose drop hours were all flown in the UK, and the rules in this respect are very different in the UK and Denmark. Damned good pilot, you probably chucked his CV at some stage and spat on his name (he did speak fair German).

As for flying paradropping under IFR, you cannot rule it out even in Germany, if the pilot holds an IR and so chooses, or if the weather only permits an IFR clearance into that class C or D airspace. Indeed you cannot rule out the possibility that some of the flight to or from the drop zone is in IMC. Although that is unlikely in some parts of the world, I doubt it is unknown in the UK.

PicMas

Agree entirely. I worked for an employer who would not allow flight on a live leg under VFR except in exceptional circumstances, despite the extra cost in fees to Brussels, as once you are used to IFR flight a fully visual sector is much harder work both in navigation and in flight management.

Actually, the CFR states that one may...not that one must.

Again, for the umpteenth time...does the JAR state that one must log all time spent operating on an IFR flight plan as instrument (or IFR) time...or that one may? Are you violating a regulation if you fail to log that time?

Tim, why do you continue to lambast SN3Guppy`s perfectly sensible replies to the original question? Too many contributors continue to confuse "Instrument Flying" with "Flight under Instrument Flight Rules"

Consider this: when I was doing my basic fliying training in the military - at the instrument stage we, amongst other things, carried out "recovery from unusual attitude" training whilst under the hood. That was conducted in class G airspace, was definitely not under an IFR flightplane but sure as hell was `real instrument time`!!!

Please, everyone, stop confusing IFR with IF One does not necessarily mean the other. For me to consider my 21,000 hrs of airline ops logged as "instrument time" is patently absurd and meaningless.

Under JAA if:

- The pilot is instrument rated
- The aircraft is equipped and maintained to IFR standards
- The flight is on an IFR clearance

You can legally log IFR. If the contributors from the big firebreathing country well west of JAA land wants to offer an opinion on how time should be logged it will be just that, an opinion.

We can discuss back and forth on the next two pages if this is correct or not, doesn't really change the fact the: JAA pilots may log IFR when on an IFR flight plan.

Thanks for venting your concerns and voicing your opinions. I, for one, will think about this next time I fly IFR and following log IFR as per the Joint Aviation Regulations.

If you chose to perform a duty and following not log to the full extend of what may be legally logged thats your choice. I fail to see how that does anything for you, that your CV does not reflect your actual accomplishments and experience. Either you can fly to the required standards or you can't.

SNS3Guppy,

Since no one else seems to want to answer your direct question, for JAA logbook entries, Lasors Section A, Appendix B states that
"The record shall contain the following information:"
"3. Operational conditions:
a. Night.
b. IFR."

My understanding of SHALL in this context is an instruction, while MAY would be the optional condition.

3b is a record of time spent IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) and not flight by sole reference to instruments (IF) and so for JAR logging of any time spent under Instrument Flight Rules is correct and required.

HOWEVER, Lasors also states that
"Pilot logbooks must be kept in accordance with the
provisions of the UK ANO currently in force and should
also conform to JAR-FCL (IEM FCL 1.080/2.080 refers)."

If you then check the UK ANO under part 4, section 35 it states:
"(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including—
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and"

So the UK ANO requires a record of IF time to be kept in addition to the JAR requirement of IFR time.

I have only copied the relevant paragraphs, but please feel free to read the whole sections if you have as much free time as me.

Hope that helps clear it up.

Chinchilla.

Thanks for that. Surprisingly, I do have some free time at the moment. Perhaps a link the relevant regulation would be forthcoming?