Blink
 

Hi, I wondered if anyone had any info on proposed pay rates for the Blink startup.

http://www.flyblink.com/

Thanks guys,

GS.

I think its in the region of £60,000 for capts and £30,000 for FO's.

If they can get 3000hr experienced corporate pilots I will be shocked I would bet the average experience for their Captains will be 1000hrs or they have found a pool no one else knows about.

African - Its all about the money. If they pay GBP 60000/year then I am sure they will find people in the turbo-prop market in UK. Sure there are quite a few guys with some a fair bit of experience who wouldn't mind a change.

CP

why interested in pay per annum... these guys will be gone in a blink ;)

No it won't,this is a very well financed start up with a detailed a long thought out business plan, 45 aircraft have been ordered to be delivered over four years making it the largest Cessna Mustang operator in the world

Four pilots hired so far, all ex British Airways all but one senior training Captains,the level of experience in hours alone perhaps 55000 flying hours.

The company will not be hiring Captains with a 1000 hours experience,it may be about the size of an APU on a jumbo!!!! but it has a sophisticated avionics fit that would put several modern airliners to shame.

The going rate for C525 pilots is £55,000 so I doubt they will poach many from there as most experienced C525/premier pilots are looking to move to larger ac in a buoyant market. So rather than GA pilots they could possibly look at airline pilots from Flybe etc. As from pilots from other jet airlines that is doubtful. They will be lower down the pile than C525 so that will mean no help from handling agents. A mustang will mean cleaning your own ac, getting your own catering and carrying all the bags, and I can't see many BA pilots wanting that! Also the hours they are quoting are similar to NetJets, so why will people not join a large company with large ac, better pay and good prospects.

I assume they will be able to cancel / sell off some of those positions if the biz plan proves too optimistic. What are the financial ramifications if the Mustang proves to be unpopular with the paying public? Would Cessna allow Blink to role them over onto proper aircraft?

Phil

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of negative comments on this site,for your information the pay will be above industry standard and lifestyle is something that a lot of thought has /will be gone into,together with other benefits.

Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience. Having straddled both camps now for over 20 years the SOPs and many other aspects that I currently see in corporate aviation leave a lot to be desired in many cases.The wealthy masses now travelling by private jet think they are somehow getting a better product because of what they are paying but the truth in my experience is somewhat different.

For a lot of pilots a short range aircraft with a max endurance of two hours no catering to worry about and small enough to clean in a jiffy could be very attractive,as the old saying goes size isn't everything and in my experience the larger the aircraft the correspondingly worse is the lifestyle.Personally I have had enough of hotel rooms to last me a lifetime.

Phil it goes up and comes down just like any other aircraft so I guess it must be a proper aeroplane.VLJs are coming just as sure as the LO CO airlines did ten plus years ago and they are super fuel efficient.At the moment each Mustang could probably fetch a $300000 dollar premium so yes if it doesn't pan out then I guess a nice tidy sum could be made.But I guess thats what sets entrepreneurs aside from the rest of us in that they are prepared to try.

African Drunk, rather arrogant of you to assume pilots going to your stated desinations above are unable to manage the likes of Samedan, etc,still know who I'd rather be with and yes they have found a pool that no one else knows about.

Highflight.

It's just a start-up with a light jet. As light jets go, it has one feature, it's new and on a par price wise with the existing CJ's. It has a range issues, but so do the CJ's (but not quite as restrictive) it also has speculated ATC issues due to it's poor climb performance. If the price and level of service overcomes it's limitations then it will probably do OK.

We nearly purchased a couple, but could not get the return on capital that we get on the CJ, with an existing infrastructure and client base. Best of luck to these new guys, but the model has some major "IF's".

If you can find enough crews.
If you can find enough clients.
If you can keep the clients.
If TAG don't pull the AOC
If ATC allow RVSM altitudes.
If BA crews want to fly in RVSM airspace without TCAS
If your pax don't mind peeing in the cabin.


The list goes on....

Every product has a demand curve, I would expect that in order to compete with other options these aircraft would have to go out at about £1000 per hour and I can't make that work.

Too much risk for me, but that's the difference between me and an Entrepreneur. If it works then I'm sure we will be one of the imitators.

Phil

I thought it had Garmin G1000. Like the G1000 in a PPL's new 172. Even a lowly 500 hour Citation FO like me is quite at home with Primus 1000 and Proline 21 these days. If the avionics are too sophisticated for a modern airline pilot then wouldn't you rather have that 1,500 hour bizjet captain up front after all?

And you never know, he might be less likely to be absent whenever it's time to add Prist or empty the potty.

Just wondering. ;)

Highflight420 said:

Bully for you. I'm sure that two pilots who have know idea about operating in the corporate world will deliver the level of service that you desire. But, do you really think you'll get "some very experienced airline pilots" onto that aircraft with those salaries?

You can only sell any extra aircraft at a slow rate otherwise you'll flood the market and send their price towards terra firma.

I was wondering where all those Bulgarian trainees went to....:}

I'm just predicting the fun that Highflight is going to have rubbing my nose in it if Blink float for £X billion in a few years. Don't worry about the negatives, it's an opinionated business, and there are many who will remind me of the many many times I have been wrong before, but don't be too evangelical about the Mustang, the revolutionary thing about Blink is the amount of funding, not the business model, and surely not the aircraft which was really designed to block a competitor coming into the market, not as a serious public transport machine.

P

The Mustang is not going to work in the EU. They are too small, too slow, poorly equiped, have insufficient range, no payload, no practial toilet, insufficient luggage space.

The following is the performance data:

BOW (lb): 5,550
MTOW (lb): 8,645
Max landing weight (lb): 8,000
Max fuel load (gal): 2,580
Useful load (lb): 3,180
Max payload, full fuel (lb): 600

Max ceiling (ft) : 410
NBAA IFR range (nm): 1,167
Long-range cruise (ktas): 315
Max cruise (ktas): 340
Burn rate at 340 (gph): 91

Takeoff distance (ft): 3,110
Landing distance: (ft): 2,380
Balanced field length (ft): 3,110

Range:
The 510 is only good for Western Europe. With two pilots, three pax and luggage it will not reach Italy from the UK. Come winter time it will not make it home from southern Spain or Portugal without refuelling.

Speed:
The 510 is 20% slower then the 525 and 550B. Punters will wake up to this rapidly, time is money (corny but oh so true)

Price:
The 510 is not 20% cheaper on a trip by trip comparison to the 525 or 550B. A punter does not care what a plane cost per hour, he is interested in a return FAB-NCE for a weekend. The 510 is not significantly cheaper to justify the smaller size. The fixed cost of a 510 is the same as a 525/550B. Mx has the same hourly rate, EU charges the same, fuel burn difference on a trip for trip comparison is neglible, parking charges, handling and landing fees are the same.

Climb rate:
The 510 cannot climb fast enough to get above the weather and keep up with any of the other traffic. The punter will be stuck in the ****e for longer and is not going to be happy, neither will the supposed BA captain be when he has to clean the sick....

Ramp presence:
For crew, punters and handling agents alike the 510 is a toy plane. Ramp presence is very important to the punter. Customers who will charter the 510 initially will leave en masse after 4-6 trips and move up to 525's 550B's and even 560/560XL's/HS125. When I show up and order 8,000 liters of fuel I get service, when a 510 shows and orders less then my car takes he will be at the end of the queue and wait for hours. Try NCE in summer...

Crew:
There is a huge competition for qualified crew. A 510 cannot compete with the bigger planes purely for comfort, size, speed, ramp presence, clientele, APU, systems. Even if you pay left seat drivers 100k a year you will not tempt them away from the bigger jets and operators. There is no way that a BA captain, or even eJ/FR, will leave their stable rosters, ops department, pensions etc. for a 510.

Luggage space:
Anybody who flies in this industry knows that punters bring everything including the kitchen sink. The 510 is not designed to fly 3-4 pax to the south of France for a weekend, the Mrs alone will have 3-5 bags. No room for gulf clubs, skis etc.

Payload:
Only two punters and fuel, enough said.

Toilet:
Punters want a loo (private, not in the middle of the cabin) the target audience for the 510 are mostly younger families with kids, you will loose customers to the 525 and 550B rapidly. Even if the punter does not need the loo it is purely psychological.

Blink:
The investor will want a return of 12-15% per annum or else he will invest his money safely offshore in a hedgefund. I cannot see Blink generating that kind of return on capital with a 510

cldrvr you are completely wrong! I would consider downgrading for £100,000 p.a. :E (waiting for pm job offer....)

Chippie, I am just commenting on Blink's own statement that BA captains are joining Blink en masse.....

Can't wait to see them
Clean the cabin after 3 rugrats have emptied every drawer and ground the peanuts in the carpet
Carry the luggage in 35 degree heat
Sit in the cockpit at -25 degrees awaiting a clearance
Deal with handling agents, ramp rats, customs and immigratioin
Deal with pax delays
Deal with ops screw ups
Deal with reroutes down routes without dispatchers
Deal with reduced rests and extensions of duties
Deal with queues for fuel, catering, plogs, flightplans.
Deal with reduced cruise levels due to low ROC
Deal with LMC's
Empty a lousy toilet cartridge
Wash the cups, plates and silverware (oops no room to put them anywhere)
Try to find a supermarket downroute at 3 am for stock
Liaise with engineering

Oh yeah, BA crew are well placed to work in our industry!!!

To each their own, we don't quite fit in at BA, they don't quite fit in with us. Choosing between executive and legacy is a clear choice and not comparable.

BA guys are excellent at what they do and we in turn are excellent at what we do.

This is by no means meant as airline vs executive bashing!!!!

And I am commenting on Highflight420's very defensive statements. Hyperbole cldrvr.

The whole debate of legacy vs executive

Apples and Oranges

can, worms, hide....

cldrvr, check pm

Highflight420

"Id much rather have some very experienced airline pilots with little or no corporate experience up front than a high houred corporate pilot with no airline experience"

A bit arrogant of you to come to the GA forum with that attitude. If I was about to hang out on the ramp at Farnborough in a toy jet I'd practice a little more humility. Maybe a more realistic name would help - how about Lowflight220 ?

Highflight Said:
Rather broad brush old chap, you might want to revisit that. Actually you might not want to in which case you are coming across as a bit of an arrogant git and perhaps more worrying for you the vast majority of pilots who come on here (who you may be seeking to employ in case this fantastic seem of VLJ pilots [which this corner of the industry has managed to miss for the last 30 months or so] dries up) think that somebody senior within Blink is an a$$hole.

Sorry!

I'm fortunate enough that in twenty years of flying both corporate and airline I have never been labelled as arrogant,many other things perhaps but not that.

The truth is, whether you like it or not and with exceptions in both of course,the standard of both training and operational procedures is generally higher in the airline world,those of you who have never set foot outside the corporate world might and will take issue with my statement and find it arrogant,it's not its a statement of fact.I feel well qualified to say that as I have done both at various times over 20 years and its been my good fortune that thanks to my excellent and very thorough training within the airline environment that I'm able to survive in the corporate world.

Blink is not revolutionary and the people concerned are well aware of the Mustangs limitations and it's niche in the market place but their business model is new and a little different to companies trading at the moment,sufficient to have attracted some considerable investment,particularly significant at a time when a lot of money men are drawing in the purse strings. There must be some confidence in it's business model to have ordered 45 aircraft and likewise Jetbird with an order for 100 Embraer Phenoms

Again it will never cease to amaze me on this site how so many pilots are ready to shoot down a new idea whilst claiming they know best but I guess its ever been thus on PPRuNe, if thats the case why aren't more pilots setting up companies and working for themselves? Little bit of small man syndrome going on here me thinks and I'd be a little worried about the mentality of someone who thinks flying a small aircraft is any less purposeful employment than flying a large one,I thought those views had gone out with the ark,obviously not.

cldvr says:


And there are many corporate pilots I wouldn't mind seeing deal with the above list !!!

In defence of some of the ex-BA guy's in the industry (I can only speak for the ones I know and deal with), they're not quite as incapable of adjusting to life in the corporate world as you seem to give (or not give) them credit for

Being the considerate chap that I am I was inclined to think that most of your last post might be interpreted as being ever so slightly ironic but I gladly gave you the benefit of the doubt. This bit.........however would appear, in some circles, to be the clincher.

Not sure you're doing yourself any favours there old fruit.

I think the scepticism comes from the history of people setting up operations with no experience in commercial private ops, tend to have a poor track record of being successful. (lets start a list - Gregg Air...Air Victoria to start)

I see that Blink are going to become an aircraft leasing company, who knows if they will make money, but understand this. Pilots and passengers want to know that the aircraft are being operated properly, not that the responsibility of safe operations can be purchased in the form of umbrella operations.

If my aircraft are run unsafely it is my responsibility. If Blinks aircraft run unsafely the guy from TAG goes to prison. Superior BA crew or not, I know which aircraft I would want to put my familly in. Also it makes stupid business sense to have the most key part of your operation not under your control.

Incidentally, most operators get weekly calls from people offering City Funding, just no-one wants it.

Phil I know of your company and the good reputation it has and I totally agree with your comments,however its not unusual in order to get up and running to piggy back on someone elses AOC and I doubt TAG would have agreed without some considerable thought beforehand,nobody to my knowledge on this site has ever rubbished TAG as a company and the people I know who work there have nothing but praise for the operation.If I remember correctly that is how Easy Jet started.

I've no doubt Blink will obtain their own AOC in the fullness of time,and safety will have to be the number 1 priority hence the employment of considerably experienced pilots as the start up team,any talk of whether ex BA pilots can or are willing to take on the extra roles involved in corporate is just silly uninformed twaddle with a little bit of anti BA retoric thrown in for good measure.Those of you out there employed in corporate aviation who like to think there is a large difference in the two types of operation are deluding themselves,there is only one way to operate an aircraft be it corporate or airline, big or small and that is with excellent training from the start and a good set of SOPs, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in the past.

Highflight.

What was the CRJ operator who woke up one day without an AC because TAG had pulled it?

Phil

I have to agree with Phil. They (someone) has invested millions of pounds into aircraft, yet have failed to invest the £100k or so in obtaining an AOC.

Quote:

---

If I remember correctly that is how Easy Jet started.

---

That is correct, however, this was a completely different business model. Air Foyle completely ran the operation, with EasyJet selling the seats. Running an AOC is all about accountability. I fail to see where the accountability is with Blink. It's there own pilots, with there own ops, yet they are not accountable. As good a reputation as TAG have, I think they will find it difficult to demonstrate to the Feds that they have the required control.

No axe to grind by the way, just surprised that such a short cut can be made, with such investment going in. Notwithstanding the extra cost of piggy backing on someone's AOC. I am sure TAG are not doing for nothing. This will ultimately bring the cost per hour up, and make the mustang even less viable.

God I'm glad I don't work with some of you guys,so many negative comments.I guess that's why you end up flying in the front two seats and not the back!!!!

Me....fly....now that's an aircraft I wouldn't put my family on. Must be pimms o'clock.

Highflight. You are surrounded by some of the sharpest minds in what it takes to make an operation commercially viable (obviously not me).

We normally get to charge a fortune for the advice your 20 years of sitting in a cockpit have qualified you to dismiss.

I think it great that you believe in your product....so did I on many failed projects. Time will tell.

Here is future office for Blink pilots:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.p...6113223&nseq=0

G1000 seems pretty capable.

Highflight

But thats all well and good, I'm sure your prospective employees have fine airline flying pedigrees and a fantastic training record etc etc.

As you have a foot in both camps perhaps you can explain how your turboprop guys and ex 744 captains who fancy a change would cope with a Katana coming the other way in an uncontrolled circuit or say a busy little VFR reposition say Southend to Biggin direct.

The only exposure to other close in and dirty traffic (The non TCAS kind) that some of these guys will have ever seen is on the last day of your sim refresher (I assume we have all seen the flying fire truck)

Stumbling from one radar environment to another four times a day whilst on the "rails" of a typical turboprop operators schedule is not particularly challenging.

No doubt all Blink pilots will learn all these skills, I'm sure you would agree that its not something you can do in the sim. But in the meantime where's your Airline safety????? Sometimes you need to see things for the first tiime for yourself.

Perhaps play it "Airline" safe and go to Nice instead of Cannes and wait 3 hours for fuel or Lulsgate instead of Gloucester, Gatwick instead of Southend, Geneva instead of Sion and make the pax taxi the rest of the way.

If my 6 numbers came up and I managed to buy me a 7X I would immediately retire proceed directly to BA's crew room at LHR dig out the crustiest 744 TRE and pay him 200k to fly me to Singapore. Mustangs are Kingair 90's with jet engines, the long winded point I'm trying to make is dont pontificate about airline safety and accuse others of being less safe than you are and then employ round pegs for square holes.

Sincerely wish you all the best with it though, I'm sure it will be a great success, and if its not sell the options on the a/c and pocket the vast amounts of cash.

Highflight420,

So you've got 4 pilots, oodles of cash, ordered 45 aircraft (that's where the cash is going, no?) and arranged to piggy-back off someone else's AOC.

Lots of plans but what have you actually done/achieved? Until you've proved that this business model works, it's just a model.

Did you pick that one up off "How to win friends and influence people". Don't think I'll be submitting my CV to that sort of "management" if that's your attitude towards the people who are critical to the success of your business.

Chips

Highflight

"its been my good fortune that thanks to my excellent and very thorough training within the airline environment that I'm able to survive in the corporate world."

Why is it that I have a mental image of Higgins from Magnum when I read your posts? A glance at several of the current threads on the Rumours forum will show that some airlines' sops and/or the implementation of same occasionally leave a lot to be desired.

In corporate, as in airline, there are bottom-feeding cowboy operations who let the side down. There are also many professionally-run outfits who strive to maintain high standards in all departments. Rather than trumpeting your superiority and getting fragile pilots' backs up it might be a better idea to quietly lead by example in your new venture thus shaming those with shabby sops and poor training into emulating Blink. The skies will surely be safer for it.

apruneuk

I think if you read my previous post I said there are exceptions in both camps.

Buts thats the point I dont see airline being that different to corporate,its down to individuals who like to think the one can't do the others job which is really a load of tosh.

Regards your point about leading by example you are exactly right and I think that's what the Blink team intend to do,whether it works or not only time will tell but there is nothing wrong in having immense pride in what you are trying to achieve and something thats lacking from the workplace in general these days.

Chippie Chappie

Why would you be critical of a team of people trying to set up something new? it seems this sort of attitude is endemic in the UK workplace these days.

Highflight.

I think people are negative because they think it's a reckless idea.

When AIr Charter Scotland purchased CJ's did everyone call them arrogant...no because it wasn't risky beyond commercial sense.

In fact when LEA anounced it's Mustang purchase, people aplauded (a fan of the airframe or not). because they do it properly, and it is part of a larger fleet.

To phase in 40 aircraft with no license to operate them in a market that will not support another 40 aircraft is at best optimistic.

The client gets an inferior product and the rest of us have to put up with the rate dumping that always follows struggling operators who need large market share to simply break even.

I am afraid to say I have been watching this thread and I feel it has got a bit bitter. My personal opinion is that companies such as BA that operate SESMA in all their aircraft and monitor its trends and then modify the training to suit is an excellent way to train. This way everyone can learn from someone else's misfortune to create a safer fleet. I am probably mistaken here but I cannot think of MANY privite jets that have these capibilites and put them towards such good use. If I am just miss informed I do apologise but surely everyone can agree this is an excellent way to iron out problems and trends within any company. The reason I mention this is becuase everyone seems a bit bitter that BA pilots have been mentioned to be better than others. Because of these systems in many large airlines, not only BA, I must agree that they surely have a better form of training especially as some large well established airlines have had this inforce for some years now. Also airlines are able to refresh and train their pilot in advance and offer jump seat rides to familiarize them with the procedures, surely this can only help. Some companies have to lead the way in safety, NOT saying that BA is one of them but why are we bitter and unable to accept some companies train better than others as long as safety is moving forward and all companies are progressing who really cares?

And for the following comment.. I mean come on were all friends here!

I fly with a retired BA 767/Flybe Capt and it does not bother him in the slightest, he acutally laughs and mentions previous times where this happend in his career. I remember him joking about being number 2 behind a glider in a DH4 in France, it was either La Rochelle or Toulouse.

Anyway lets not all get bitter, its obvious that all pilots are trained to a very high standard and have expertise in their own field its not a competition about who is a better pilot!

I wish Blink every success!

Aaaaannnnndd.......STRIKE TWO!!!


Tell me HF. In your very excellent airline training and (implied) inferior GA/bizjet training did anyone ever mention CRM? Warning flags are popping up on your posts with increasing regularity.

As for the Blink model I think, as others have said, it's a bomb. Better business brains than mine are questioning the viability of these machines and no doubt as the result of sound reasoning whereas to me, as a lowly 'front seater' it just smells wrong. Range, capacity etc, etc. Nahhhh, put the money in a savings account instead.

I would also question the claim of all these multi-thousand, widebody captains jumping ship to fly a....a........what was it? Mustang.....? Shurely shome mishtake?

High time, ex-flag carrier captains with low time (read 'new') FO's? At the risk of over generalising, that's a situation that will require some very careful monitoring and that's before we go down the 'who empties the bog?' route (yes, yes, yes I know. I've flown with ex-airline, ex-military, ex-you-name-it pilots too). They'll just get fed up.

Flintstone,

I'm pleased to say my CRM skills are up there with the best of them,unfortunately this forum doesn't bring out the best of them.

I have never said BA pilots are the best pilots in the world but and its a big but, they are amongst the best trained,we have all passed the initial GFTs and IR but we don't all go on to get the best follow up training,now you can go off and throw your toys out of the pram,tell me your aircraft is bigger than mine etc etc because of that statement but it's a fact.

What strikes me as very sad is the amount of negative comments and self professed experts on this site.I have never said Blink will necessarily go on to be a raging success but two young men have had the foresight and enthusiasm to give it their all.I would add that I sit up front too and always will because I don't have that little something extra that sets those that do and those that don't apart.

I for one admire them for being prepared to give it a go the same way that the foresight of a certain greek cypriot has given rise to the creation of hundreds of pilots jobs flying around in orange aircraft.

Phil,

It's called competition and it's been around since the begining of time,who knows if the model works you might find yourself ordering some.:)