If there were an award for dogged persistence Malc would win hands down :D

For God's sake! Would an FAA operator somewhere give him a job? He's driving us nuts!!



;)

Hey Phil

I just had a wonderful idea! why dont we buy a fleet of single engine turbo-props like the tbm850

forget the catering, drink tap water, fly on the N like the old days.

this time next year we could be rich ! call the lawyers see if it can be done !

It's already done by Jetfly, and it works very well (fractional only)

Martin,

Have you forgotten about the losses on the 208?

Martin,

Anyway, we'd have to be based in Weston / Dublin, ilegal charters are legal over there.

Fair do's.

For what it's worth, I've found aviation a very pleasant place so far but if I went onto pprune's airline section and started telling them bizjet crews could do their jobs better than they, I would expect to receive a less than warm welcome.

Good luck to Blink and their crews. Maybe the company actually has a strong business plan that just hasn't been given justice here but I'd feel more secure at a Phil Brockwellian operation myself.

For the record, and even Mr O'Leary agree's. There is no such thing as a low cost airline. low fares yes, low cost no.

So based on the fact that cessna are not offering a deal to blink that would be less than anyone else could get, and the pilots won't cost any less, nor the airport fee's etc... The only way is to squeeze more juice from orange, and have the aircraft fly more hours. If the aircraft fly more hours, then the quality of the product will be reduced. the main attraction of chartering is flexibility, which will be compromised with the increased utilisation that is required to balance the books.......or fly less hours, but put the price up......not low cost then.

Time will tell if the blink business model will be deemed a stroke of genius, or an ill-conceived vision. Either way, 2+2 will always equal 4. If it adds up to anything else, go do your sums again.

Salaries?

First couple of candidates for the Chief Pilot position were offered a basic of £55,000. :(

I remember when Stelios dreamed up Easyjet, everybody in this industry laughed and said no way would it work, no one wanted to fly cheap with no catering or M&S sandwiches. He had to get crews from abroad as no one had faith in it and now look at it. How many 'low cost' operators use this model now and are starting up all over the world. I used to fly as pax on easyjet when it first started from Luton and I did wonder sometimes if the aircraft was going to make it to the destination:eek:
It just requires a change of mind set by the 'stick in the mud' old hands who think they are special because they fly a little jet instead of a big one.
A London Cabby is the same as a RR Chauffeur..a competent professional driver.
You don't need new state of the art aircraft as long as they are safe. You need pilots that can think outside the box and want to make it work. It seems to me that too many self-centred people with no vision and big ego's get involved and just drag things down.
The 'private' jet concept is over blown, it is just an airborne taxi.
The goal is get the pax from A to B. The difficulty lies in the logistics of A/C positioning and the algorithms needed to achieve it.
Having said that, you need to value the people that make it work and that is where operators go wrong. If people feel valued, if they look forward to going to work then they work harder for less. It never ceases to amaze me how 'successful' businessmen/women cannot grasp this concept.:ugh:
I have worked for such people and it is just frustrating as hell.
Good luck Blink, choose the workforce carefully look after them and the returns will be there.:ok:

Pilotbear,

You speak a lot of sense. In fact I think you have just described quite a few existing operators. A few years ago Netjets were feared, but for us they generated an interest in private aircraft much higher than they could supply, and the rest of us mopped up the excess, hopefully blink will be the same, with a big marketing budget and limited operational ability in terms of payload / range it all sounds good to me.

Phil

Pilotbear, you're right from A to Z :D

in case of Blinck this contradicts with In another words: it will be a nice flying club :cool:

pilotbear,

The most sensible and intuative post so far,I agree 100%. It never fails to amaze me how employers treat one of their most important assets with often blatant disregard and why perhaps Pilots are not always the most loyal part of the workforce.

I would imagine the Blink team are well aware of where differences can be made in the style of operation

There is more you can offer in an employment package besides cold hard cash.

With regards the aircraft and it's limitations these are well known,I've read several different reviews of the aircraft and all bar none have been nothing less than very favourable,one quote from Pilot magazine this month, 'to compare the Cessna Mustang with the previous CJ series is like comparing the Airbus 320 with a Boeing 737'

Like the stability of a start up!! :D

Blablablafly

What a thoroughly inspiring individual you are,I'm guessing your a glass half empty individual:(thank god all those new pilots coming through the system don't have to rely on you for new jobs creation.

Your mention of the word stability seems to suggest that risk isn't for you,as I said before that's why your up front driving and not sat down the back knocking back the bubbly.If your in corporate aviation haven't you like me ever looked at some of the so called financial elite and wondered how on earth they made their fortunes when some of them can't even tie their own shoelaces,the difference is simple they took the risk and dared to dream,the likes of you and I figure the risk isn't worth upsetting our comfortable lives for and therefore end up driving them around.

Every company had to have the start up phase.An employment package can include share options:ok:,generous leave allowances:ok: and many other methods of attracting new employees besides just a straight salary.One only has to look at the success of John Lewis as a company to see why employee ownership has it's advantages.

I sincerely hope Blink are a runaway success:D and I look forward to seeing their planned large fleet all around Europe in the next four years.

Leave the risk takers in the back I say, I think the prerequisite for a pilot is low affinity to risk (after they have punted for the license that is).

I see POGO have realised that in the current market raising finance for their purchase programme is inappropriate, and Bob Crandall should know his stuff. Lets hope the UK economy is not following the same route.

Thank you :ok:, they call it experience in a world were we have the Greggairs, 24/7, Club328 etcetc failing every few months after having started with: "we will add more aircraft as fast as we can because everything is great" or the "we will change the industry" call. The list is endless and the pr when they start priceless :)

The getting in bit is not so much a worry, the getting out when it fails does worry me.....

hahaha, how off the mark you can be! But hey your the one dreaming, not me

It is better than that: we get people who cannot tie their own shoelaces, make a sh!t load of money and than think: we know it better than everybody else who has been there for years and make money in Aviation. It generally goes downhill from there..... I have worked for them in startups in both Corporate and "normal" aviation and have seen them fail more often than you have been posting! It is great, like watching a accident waiting tio happen. In the mean time please DO invest YOUR money while I be a bit negative :8

Anybody with any business accumen knows that very often the time to strike is when everbody else isn't.

You don't think property millionaires built their property empires at the top of a cycle.

Blink have already raised the finance for the first few years of operation. 2009/10 are being slated in as years of significant growth again,if that's the case you need to be in a position to compete to be up and running not looking to raise finance and order aircraft.

Phil are you a businessman,pilot or both,if both I never thought that the two went together very naturally and you haven't said anything to make me change my view.Picking up business on the tailcoat of others(your reference to Netjets) isn't a recipe for good business practice.Think I'd much rather have two business background Harvard graduates with a bible thick business plan and an order/options for 45 aircraft from the Cessna factory.:)

Don't doubt Bob Crandall as I know his background but tell me if I'm wrong in that POGO weren't planning to launch until late 2008 early 2009.Additionally the USA is in recession and has several already established Air-taxi companies, Europe as yet hasn't isn't in a recession to my knowledge, but then what would I know I just fly them.

highflight,

You will never understand my point of view, I certainly will never understand yours. Who knows....who cares.

Best of luck on whatever planet you choose to settle on.

Phil

Don't be like that Phil it's only a spirited exchange of views.

I'm quite happy here on mother Earth but thanks for the good wishes anyway:)

Phil, I have a great business plan - I think I can get city finance...

It's called "the wheel" - You take 4 "wheels" and put them on a crate, then you can move the crate at great speed. Do you think it will catch on? :ugh:

Flynowpaylater, I'm sure you could make a lot of money by contacting directly the Blink chaps in order to warn them about what you know. Thanks to you they may save time and money, and would definitely be glad to reward you.

A smart man like you should seek for a decent aviation consultant position, or maybe you give a try to the astrology.

I would imagine that Blink would have had to sweeten the pill and increase their salary scale(s) and I've no doubt that the CP and other captains are of high calibre.

The thing that (still) worries me is that they are allegedly all retiring BA/Cathay type captains who will be flying with low time (read, 'minimum hours') co-pilots. Not a good mix.

Now now Flynow, don't go reinventing the wheel.
Kaaa-tishhhh
Thank you very much I'm here all week.

Low time copilot ? The mustang is single pilot certified, so where do you think co-pilots can learn their job ???? :*

I believe there are other types of aircraft in addition to the Mustang.



It is accepted wisdom in CRM-land that steep command gradients are not a good thing. On a type new to both crewmembers the situation can be exacerbated.

The cockpit gradient was very much emphasised during my MCC, hopefully with good MCC, CRM training and good SOPs this is something that will be on the decline as new generations come through the ranks.

I can here the instructors voice now "don't be ignored"

Caught a glimpse of the Mustang review in this months Pilot mag, simple to fly and operate, ergonomically perfect, and could be flown by a competent PPL by all accounts..:ok:

Now you've gone and done it, given the beancounters ideas.:rolleyes:

To be honest,

I don't think it is such an awful idea, we have all seen Captains move from Bizjet, t'prop to airline, and the other way. There are some who can make the transition. Bear in mind I'm sure that the interview will be based not on hours and experience exclusively.

I think the learning process of reinventing the wheel will be the hard part of this plan, I can't help thinking the use of all the capital raised would be better spent acquiring existing operators with existing fleet / management (profit)contracts / aoc etc, defracturing (is that a word?) the market and generating extra profits by the economies of scale of a single fuel purchase account, single Ops base and the other bits that reduce the threats to an AOC holder like TRTO, Maintenance and suitably qualified CP's.

Phil

Flintstone,

With respect what a load of utter tosh,high time Captains,low time co-pilots bad mix.CRM isn't something new it's been here in one form or another ever since man got up onto two legs,it's just been given a fancy name recently that's all.

Are you telling me all high time BA/Cathay captains shouldn't be flying with new copilots?who are the new pilots supposed to glean their experience from.I've flown with some wonderful former airline Captains all gentlemen to a tee and great pleasure to fly with and talk to.I've seen more ego per gold stripe in corporate aviation than I have ever seen in any airline I've flown for,guess it must be to do with all those important people and film stars we fly around!!!!!!!!!!!:yuk:

I'm a high time Captain and I'm quite happy flying with new guys and girls and if I can pass on some experience then all the better,I can learn from them too.

I'm getting on in years but some of you need to come out of the dark ages,after all it's only a job operating a machine from A-B not rocket science.

Lets face it a Boeing 747 could be flown by an experienced PPL with the right training so lets not go down the 'my one is bigger than yours' path.I thought that had all been left behind years ago at school.If you have a problem with size:O medical science has all sorts of fixes these days:ooh: well all but small man syndrome, if you have that then I'm afraid not even medical science can fix that.:)

Highflight - your best post yet. :O. Not only true, but witty as well.

Re Blink, good luck with it, sincerely. I hope that they prove us wrong, as it will only enhance our industry if it succeeds. On the flip side, if the money will effectively be spent on buying market share, by selling at a loss, this will have a negative effect, and therefore quite rightly, people within the industry are concerned. Anyone can sell a pounds worth of fivers, and by doing so, damage the industry whilst they are doing this.

I think you will all find that it was BA that invented the CRM and MCC course and it has caught on throught the industry and now become mandatory. So I am sure the BA pilots will be better than most others at passing on experience while working with low houred F/O's.

Cabus

Actually the opposite, BA have not taken on any "Cadets" for many years, If I recall correctly they may have started in the last 12 months or so recruiting newbies. They will not however be online just yet and they will certainly be getting nowhere near a 747.

Direct entry F/O's on nearly all fleets for BA need 2000 hours with 1000 Jet hours.

If you want captains who deal with inexperienced Fo's then somewhere like Ryanair would be your better port of call not BA/Cathay. Ironic as it may be that many pilots are looking to leave places like ezy and FR to take the paycut at BA to get away from the "Cadet" culture.

In addition Cabus, all large carriers have training departments and I would imagine that BA's is probably one of the best (if not THE best) and you are no doubt correct about the pioneering work they and other legacy carriers did regarding CRM. But to have somebody pontificate on here about crap corporate safety standards and how the airlines have got it right all these years and then describe as that there is a problem with a steep cockpit gradient is utter madness.

Which one is it?

And with regards the opinion that all pilots can do the corporate job without any problems, then everybody is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is not that the aircraft is going to do some great lomecovak into Leicester square like some would suggest that this is where my opinion lies. Of course an experienced BA/CATHAY/QUANTAS widebody pilot will be able to get in the bloody thing and get from without any problem.

My issue is with the finer points of corporate aviation of which these pilots will not have had any exposure of... if ever....if not for a very long time.

I have no doubt that these skills will be aquired very quickly but will there be issues with passenger inconvenience and this so called higher plain of existence (known as airline safety) that highflight pontificates over in the meantime.

Highflight have you just discovered smilies???

Heres about the only one you havn't used yet :confused: its called confused - ironic that

Speaks volumes and kind of makes my point for me. Never mind, FNPL loves you. Oh, hang on. He's not a pilot so has no first hand experience on the subject other than from watching from his office chair (previous threads passim).

Can you honestly not see the potential for problems here? New FO's, eager to please, reluctant to speak up. If I have to spell it out at this level I'm wasting my pixels.

I have aquaintances who are flying online for BA as cadets at the moment so and I dont see what difference it makes about what aircraft they are flying 74 or A319. All the fleets will have experienced 'old boy' Captains on so cadets will be flying with experienced pilots high hours pilots on the entry fleets. All I am saying is surely the company that invented CRM will be good at training it and the pilots will be excellent at implementing it, this comment is purely addressed at people who seem to think BA pilot will be unable to fly with low hour F/O's in a company such a Blink.

Nobody said they would be "unable".

Pablo Mason test driving the Mustang on youtube below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dw_3mXADMY

Cabus

Suggest you reread your MCC notes mate, the above is full of assumptions based on aquaintances and hearsay. BA DOES NOT have a cadet culture.

PS BA did not invent CRM, the phrase was coined by the American Airlines Training department and adopted by other carriers because it was hip and gucci at that time, American had an awful record for hull losses and incidents and turned it around in a rather spectacular fashion and now have one of the most succesful Training Departments Worldwide.

American also invented Threat Error Management which will no doubt either will have or be on a CRM refresher coming your way soon

A steep gradient is not good period.

Who said unable?

When considering these CRM issues consdier the lowest common denominator dont think "Old Boy" think "Old Git" now how safe is the operation? Especially when strictly speaking the unwritten word is that (setting the ops manual to one side) its a single crew type.

I can here the words now from a Crusty Ex Fast Jet CAA FOI regarding co pilots I had on a recurrent once "Copilots Blah - pound for pound I'd rather have the fuel"

This whole CRM sub discussion is acedemic anyway, these are single pilot aircraft with single pilot type ratings, personally I dont think 250hour guys will cut the type rating, its ok getting signed off to sit next to somebody but the Flightsafety guys want 1000hrs plus before comencing a jet type and wont give these ratings away. If it starts to happen I'll be disgusted and shall be on the phone personally cancelling my full service contract

G-SPOTS

Finer points of corporate aviation!!,what carrying bags,loading bags,hoovering and polishing the interior,collecting the trash,filling my own loadsheet,collecting my own weather,paying the landing fees,talking to the passengers,flying into tricky airfields at night in foul weather etc etc,I did it all in the airline world we weren't that closetted.

I maintain there is bugger all difference between the two camps just those who would like to think so.

The reason I have posted at all on here is because I think any new company and the people sticking their necks out to start it, should be applauded and I get heartily sickened by armchair businessmen calling themselves pilots pontificating on why it won't work,why not wish them well and hope it does.If they achieve their planned 45 aircraft and assuming two crews per aircraft that is 180 new pilot jobs over the next four years:D what's bad about that.If it fails some people will end up with a paid Mustang rating,looks bloody good fun to me.:)

I repeat CRM wasn't invented by the Americans or anyone else, it's in all of us to a greater or lesser degree and has been since the begining of time.eg "by all means you eat that Mammoth and I'll catch the next one that comes along old boy" ie manners ,empathy,the ability to listen,to give commands to include other people in decision making etc etc etc in otherwords what makes most of us decent human beings,don't make out it's anything much more than that,it's just been given that fancy title and applied to the aviation environment.

Regarding the rating I think your just plain wrong,don't see with the right training why a 250 hour pilot shouldn't sail through.I guess you had better start throwing your toys out of the cockpit and get your complaints in early.

I say about the CRM as I clearly remember my father having to attend a course on CRM back in the early 90's when you are right, CRM was the new buzz word. I may be wrong about the CRM being invented by BA but this is only what I am sure I have read in the old BA manuals while trying to revise for interviews. It may well be incorrect, or more likely, I may have read it incorrectly for which I can only apologise and but we are missing the point. I was saying that is is stupid for people to think that experience BA, or any other legacy carriers,Captains would be not as good as Captains from other airlines at flying with low houred F/O's. Is that worded better?:sad:

With regards to cadets lets just agree to disagree.

I have got to say that aircraft looks great fun but I must agree I cant imagine the TR being unmanageable but we will have to wait and see.